Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Wyrd » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:01 pm

Considering StarS(season 5) starts before SuperS(season 4) ends nothing can have happened between season 3 and 5 since season 5 can't have happened.


Season 4 happened entirely within the span of a single solar eclipse. It existed outside of time, on the border of the realm of dreams, thus why it is such a surreal experience. That, or it was just a genjutsu. If I am going to drop any season from my SM continuity, it is season 4.

Well there isn't a source that says Michiru/Haruka aren't cousins, and the term kissing cousins isn't referring to a light peck on the cheek.


Michiru and Haruka are also depicted in such a way as to imply that they are very upper class. The upper class often has a very different view of the word 'cousin' than the average person. In one of the few moments where Robert Jordan managed to cut through needless exposition, he had a scene that basically said:
Rand "She's my cousin? How closely are we related?"
Royal Adviser "Well your she's related to your grandmother throu-"
Rand "Let me rephrase. If we were, say, farmers, how would you describe our relation?"
RA "Well, I suppose you'd say that you weren't related at all in that case."

Family trees that stretch back hundreds of years or more tend to become so interconnected, especially with the tendency for political marriages, that just about every noble can call every other noble 'cousin.'
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby TerraEpon » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:50 am

What's all this on season 5 starting before 4 and messed up timelines? I don't remember any of this.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:48 am

by Wyrd wrote: Season 4 happened entirely within the span of a single solar eclipse. It existed outside of time, on the border of the realm of dreams, thus why it is such a surreal experience. That, or it was just a genjutsu. If I am going to drop any season from my SM continuity, it is season 4.

Things work best if season 5 takes place during the great freeze that leads to the creation of Crystal Tokyo. It fits perfectly with what we are told in season, and Neffy's MO was to freeze everything.

Season 5 not actually happening has the plus of Pluto not pointlessly mind raping Hotaru and her father.

by Wyrd wrote: Michiru and Haruka are also depicted in such a way as to imply that they are very upper class. The upper class often has a very different view of the word 'cousin' than the average person. In one of the few moments where Robert Jordan managed to cut through needless exposition, he had a scene that basically said:
Rand "She's my cousin? How closely are we related?"
Royal Adviser "Well your she's related to your grandmother throu-"
Rand "Let me rephrase. If we were, say, farmers, how would you describe our relation?"
RA "Well, I suppose you'd say that you weren't related at all in that case."

Family trees that stretch back hundreds of years or more tend to become so interconnected, especially with the tendency for political marriages, that just about every noble can call every other noble 'cousin.'

Yep
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:53 am

by TerraEpon wrote: What's all this on season 5 starting before 4 and messed up timelines? I don't remember any of this.

The short answer is seasons 4 and 5 have to overlap in ways they logically can not do so. The Inners graduated middle school at about the end of season 3, and then started school during season 4, but at the start of season 5 they are just starting their first year of high school. In order to make sense season 5 has to have started before season 4 ends. You can see the problem.

Here is a detailed article someone wrote on the matter of the Sailor Moon anime timeline: http://www.genvid.com/lunarch/faqyou/continuity.html
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:17 am

Zwzn wrote:The short answer is seasons 4 and 5 have to overlap in ways they logically can not do so. The Inners graduated middle school at about the end of season 3, and then started school during season 4, but at the start of season 5 they are just starting their first year of high school. In order to make sense season 5 has to have started before season 4 ends. You can see the problem.

Here is a detailed article someone wrote on the matter of the Sailor Moon anime timeline: http://www.genvid.com/lunarch/faqyou/continuity.html

That is a really neat link... Nicely reasoned and can find little to disagree with except exact definitions of 'canon', but not going into that.

However, while the Ami and Usagi Shorts/Specials are mentioned... it seems the 3rd one was forgotten about, or at least, if it was not I missed it being mentioned...

The Sailor SuperS special... a 47 minute or multi part special centering on the two outers and Chibi Usa. Has them going after vampires. Intro to it is done by Usagi and Chibi Usa.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Wyrd » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:35 am

Season 5 not actually happening has the plus of Pluto not pointlessly mind raping Hotaru and her father.


One of the reasons I prefer the manga, though I don't recall her actually affecting their minds. As I recall, Pluto just approached Hotaru's father and said that she had to take her. If her father knew about her being Sailor Saturn(how much he remembered from while he was possessed is up for debate), then his acceding to her demand makes sense even without her affecting his or Hotaru's minds. Hotaru was still a baby at that point in the anime, too. If you are referring to a different scene, then it is one that I currently don't remember.

In the manga, her father doesn't survive, which is one of the main reason she gets raised by the Outers in the first place.

The Sailor SuperS special... a 47 minute or multi part special centering on the two outers and Chibi Usa. Has them going after vampires. Intro to it is done by Usagi and Chibi Usa.


That was a really good one. I laughed my ass off at that one.

Edit:

The problem with that timeline is it assumes linear time. The end of season 1 had the Senshi travel back in time and relive that time period without Beryl. Before the Dark Kingdom would have been defeated, they had to deal with time travelling enemies, which likely threw off their personal timelines even further. Then, season 4 happened during the course of a single solar eclipse. This extra time might be why Usagi was able to pass the high school entrance exams, which I seem to recall them studying for during this season, as the Senshi and Mamoru lived through several months everyone else didn't.

As for using certain events coming twice in one year, it has long been a convention of tv series to have episodes released during major events for their watchers, such as the festivals mentioned, happen during those festivals, even if the other nearby episodes of the show are nowhere near that time. That is the problem with a show that is released over more years than it claims it took for the events to occur.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Cheb » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:12 am

There is actually nothing in the original version that says with certainty that they are a couple in the anime,

Ahem.
I certainly remember a scene where Neptune holds Uranus by her arm after the latter was thrown off a skyscraper roof (the baby Hotaru re-awakening episode in Stars).
Neptune: You've certainly gained weight.
Uranus: (in a rather intimate tone) I don't remember hearing that from you in the bed.
(or something alike, I don't remember the exact wording).
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:33 pm

This extra time might be why Usagi was able to pass the high school entrance exams, which I seem to recall them studying for during this season, as the Senshi and Mamoru lived through several months everyone else didn't.

At least in the anime... she had to repeatedly be told to get ot her studying, and at one point her fellow senshi confronted her with their concerns that at the rate she was going she would *not* pass her tests and would be unable to get into high school.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Wyrd » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:25 pm

Yes, she was nagged constantly about studying and the fact that she wouldn't be prepared for the test. Several extra months of studying at that level might have been enough to bring her scores up to acceptable levels, which she could have reached with a bit of focus without that time. The season ends only a few minutes after it begins in the anime.

In the manga, the outers come to help during the season, and discover that Tokyo is in a bubble of reality that it takes them a lot of effort to enter. If that bubble had altered time inside so that much more time passed within it than outside of it, it would explain it taking weeks to months for the outers to even realize something was wrong, much less get into Tokyo-it might have actually only taken them a few hours. Perhaps when that bubble collapsed, time within reverted to the moment it was created, or synced up with time outside of the bubble, so that a few hours passed for those inside without the magical powers of the Senshi, instead of a couple of minutes, while the Senshi remembered all of the months that they had fought off the Dead Moon Circus.

Just theorizing for the sake of fun, here. I am moderately certain that Takeuchi didn't think of much of this when she was writing it, though some of the details fit well enough that it may resemble what she intended.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:02 am

by Cheb wrote: Ahem.
I certainly remember a scene where Neptune holds Uranus by her arm after the latter was thrown off a skyscraper roof (the baby Hotaru re-awakening episode in Stars).
Neptune: You've certainly gained weight.
Uranus: (in a rather intimate tone) I don't remember hearing that from you in the bed.
(or something alike, I don't remember the exact wording).
Given that reasoning Hotaru and Chibi-Usa are a couple even though neither is into girls.

It almost sounds like Haruka is pregnant which isn't out of the question given U&N doing guy watching in season 3.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:04 am

by Wyrd wrote: One of the reasons I prefer the manga, though I don't recall her actually affecting their minds. As I recall, Pluto just approached Hotaru's father and said that she had to take her. If her father knew about her being Sailor Saturn(how much he remembered from while he was possessed is up for debate), then his acceding to her demand makes sense even without her affecting his or Hotaru's minds. Hotaru was still a baby at that point in the anime, too. If you are referring to a different scene, then it is one that I currently don't remember.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=157qr-ocXXM
Sailor Pluto shows up in civilian clothing just after Hotaru just happened to have a "vision", then Hotaru's father just goes all classic I'm being mind controlled blank stare, and hands over Hotaru? At the very least the scene is very poorly done.

Keep in mind there are only three outer senshi in the anime, Saturn isn't one of them.

by Wyrd wrote: n the manga, her father doesn't survive, which is one of the main reason she gets raised by the Outers in the first place.

That's just as bad if not worse because Hotaru was handed over to two 15/16 year olds by the government, and no one wonders what happened to the baby, or where the kid came from.

by Wyrd wrote: The problem with that timeline is it assumes linear time. The end of season 1 had the Senshi travel back in time and relive that time period without Beryl. Before the Dark Kingdom would have been defeated, they had to deal with time travelling enemies, which likely threw off their personal timelines even further. Then, season 4 happened during the course of a single solar eclipse. This extra time might be why Usagi was able to pass the high school entrance exams, which I seem to recall them studying for during this season, as the Senshi and Mamoru lived through several months everyone else didn't.
Usagi is 14 and in the same grade in seasons 1 and 2

Usagi is 15 in season 3

There is no evidence season 4 takes place anywhere but the real world as the dream world was frozen by Neffy, and there is nothing to show the entire Earth was transported to a different plain/dimension. We even see Neffy arriving on Earth. So, Usagi turned 16 in season 4.
Any altered reality can esaly be explained by Chibi-Usa unconsciously making use of the Golden Crystal Helios had, and explains the loss at the end of the season since Chibi-Usa wished to be born.

Then Usagi turned 16 in season 5. Just like it's manga counter part StarS doesn't match well with the rest of continuity. If you make season 5 the "dream" then things make more sense then assuming season 4 is the dream

The manga as I recall takes place in a much shorter amount of time.
Last edited by Zwzn on Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:26 am

by Wyrd wrote: Yes, she was nagged constantly about studying and the fact that she wouldn't be prepared for the test. Several extra months of studying at that level might have been enough to bring her scores up to acceptable levels, which she could have reached with a bit of focus without that time. The season ends only a few minutes after it begins in the anime.

Usagi's problem is she is lazy rather then stupid.

by Wyrd wrote:
In the manga, the outers come to help during the season, and discover that Tokyo is in a bubble of reality that it takes them a lot of effort to enter. If that bubble had altered time inside so that much more time passed within it than outside of it, it would explain it taking weeks to months for the outers to even realize something was wrong, much less get into Tokyo-it might have actually only taken them a few hours. Perhaps when that bubble collapsed, time within reverted to the moment it was created, or synced up with time outside of the bubble, so that a few hours passed for those inside without the magical powers of the Senshi, instead of a couple of minutes, while the Senshi remembered all of the months that they had fought off the Dead Moon Circus.

Nehellenia's attack covered the entire planet in the anime.

by Wyrd wrote:Just theorizing for the sake of fun, here. I am moderately certain that Takeuchi didn't think of much of this when she was writing it, though some of the details fit well enough that it may resemble what she intended.
That is the problem with a lot of manga in cluding Sailor Moon, but Takeuchi didn't write the anime from what I've read.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Wyrd » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:49 pm

Nehellenia's attack covered the entire planet in the anime.


And it clearly covered just Tokyo and Elysium in the manga. The anime does, however, have the last episode of the season(I think) end back on the same day that the eclipse started, with everyone standing at exactly the same points as they were when they were watching that eclipse at the beginning of the season, with lots of civilians gathered around them to watch it just as they were in that first episode, with only the Senshi aware that anything weird had happened. Perhaps in the anime, the time bubble was much larger, encapsulating the entire planet or even the entire solar system. The outers don't show up at all in the anime for this season, and there is no mention that I am aware of of a barrier surrounding Tokyo.

Sailor Pluto shows up in civilian clothing just after Hotaru just happened to have a "vision", then Hotaru's father just goes all classic I'm being mind controlled blank stare, and hands over Hotaru? At the very least the scene is very poorly done.


I agree that the scene was poorly handled. In the manga, Saturn also has visions, quite a few of them, leading to her awakening as Sailor Saturn and telling Haruka and Michiru that the Inners were in trouble and they needed to go help them. Visions seem to be a part of her powers, just as they are a part of Rei's and Michiru's.

That's just as bad if not worse because Hotaru was handed over to two 15/16 year olds by the government, and no one wonders what happened to the baby, or where the kid came from.


A baby who legally did not exist was handed over to two wealthy teenagers who were both celebrities in their own circles. A couple of teenage celebrities deciding to try their hands at raising a baby would be a bit scandalous, but with Pluto living with them as adult supervision they would have been able to get away with it. I don't recall for certain that Pluto was living with them at this time, but I don't feel like looking up the relevant pages of the manga.

Given that reasoning Hotaru and Chibi-Usa are a couple even though neither is into girls.


I've seen quite a few fanfics that say otherwise...

Really, neither of them is old enough to be certain which gender they are attracted to yet. There are individuals who are obviously gay as young as 3 or 4(my nephew, for one. His father is still in denial about it, even though the boy is now in his teens and so obvious that it took only one sentence out of his mouth to confirm my assessment of his younger self). There are a lot more people who don't discover that they are homosexual until puberty, however.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:56 pm

by Wyrd wrote: And it clearly covered just Tokyo and Elysium in the manga.

What happened in the manga has no bearing on what happened in the anime.

by Wyrd wrote: The anime does, however, have the last episode of the season(I think) end back on the same day that the eclipse started, with everyone standing at exactly the same points as they were when they were watching that eclipse at the beginning of the season, with lots of civilians gathered around them to watch it just as they were in that first episode, with only the Senshi aware that anything weird had happened.

I suggest you re-watch the first and last episode of season 4 because the scenes don't seem to match the way you think. For one thing Heliso is standing there talking to them, and no one else is around. Even if it is the same park it is not the same time.

by Wyrd wrote: Perhaps in the anime, the time bubble was much larger, encapsulating the entire planet or even the entire solar system. The outers don't show up at all in the anime for this season, and there is no mention that I am aware of of a barrier surrounding Tokyo.

Or there was no time bubble since there is no evidence for one, and Uranus and Neptune just didn't know or care about Nehellenia until it was to late.

by Wyrd wrote: I agree that the scene was poorly handled. In the manga, Saturn also has visions, quite a few of them, leading to her awakening as Sailor Saturn and telling Haruka and Michiru that the Inners were in trouble and they needed to go help them. Visions seem to be a part of her powers, just as they are a part of Rei's and Michiru's.

It's also anime Pluto's power to put visions in peoples heads, and has done so with intent to control and manipulate people on screen.

by Wyrd wrote: A baby who legally did not exist was handed over to two wealthy teenagers who were both celebrities in their own circles. A couple of teenage celebrities deciding to try their hands at raising a baby would be a bit scandalous, but with Pluto living with them as adult supervision they would have been able to get away with it. I don't recall for certain that Pluto was living with them at this time, but I don't feel like looking up the relevant pages of the manga.

There would be a lot of people who would want to adopt a health baby girl, and the key word here is teenagers.

Then the baby disappears without a trance, and there is a 10 year old who appeared out of nowhere, and goes to school, and no one bats an eye. It's worse then Chibi-Usa going to school, and no one wondering where she came from.

by Wyrd wrote: I've seen quite a few fanfics that say otherwise...

Those are fanfics. There are fanfics that have Usagi as a Slaanesh cultist.

by Wyrd wrote: Really, neither of them is old enough to be certain which gender they are attracted to yet. There are individuals who are obviously gay as young as 3 or 4(my nephew, for one. His father is still in denial about it, even though the boy is now in his teens and so obvious that it took only one sentence out of his mouth to confirm my assessment of his younger self). There are a lot more people who don't discover that they are homosexual until puberty, however.
Chibi-Usa as of season 2 is something like 10 years old physically, and that's plenty old to be attracted to someone ever if the body is not read, and seasons 2 and 4 has some very odd scenes if Chibi-Usa is not interested in guys.

Hotaru is physically older then Chibi-Usa, almost as tall as Usagi, and has clearly entered puberty some time before she appears in season 3. She is likely in her teens during the series since the "accident" happened when she was 9. I'd suggest you take a look at season 3 specifically episode 117 where the opening has has what looks like Hotaru fantasizing about a hunky track and field star. The episode would seem really strange to me if Hotaru is not into guys.
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