Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

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Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:08 am

Why are people bothered by Neptune and Uranus saying they are cousins to someone they barely know, are trying to calm, and are planning to murder?

It does nothing to change any other scene.

It does nothing to change anything about them.

Why do people get so bent out of shape about something that changes nothing, and actually makes Uranus and Neptune look clever?
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:59 am

I don't see anything wrong with it so long as they say it because they need to be tactful, regarding who they should share the knowledge of their relationship with. But if they say it because that's a reality that's being imposed by someone's censorship, I think it's a big deal because I don't like lies being told for no good reason. And, no, I don't think that children are a good enough reason. :P
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Knight of L-sama » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:06 am

There are several broad reasons why people get worked up about this

1: Many, if not most anime fans don't appreciate any changes from the original Japanese version. Basically what we want is a straight translation of the Japanese got.

2: The reasons for this specific change. This was not an attempt to make Haruka and Michiru hiding their relationship from strangers in show, this is Cloverway attempting to completely hide the romantic nature of their relationship for reasons that can only be described as homophobic. You say it does nothing to change them but the intent was in fact to change a very significant point in their characterisation. Nor does it make the characters look clever, it merely makes Cloverway look incompetent since despite their intent they couldn't remove the romantic subtext.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Drawde2 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:23 pm

I've seen part of that debate go that the people doing the script were forced to call them cousins, but deliberately failed to change the romantic subtext between them since they didn't agree with the change. Don't know if it's true or just a guess though.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby TerraEpon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:56 pm

Incidently, if I remember right, there's actually one one or two spots where it could be that they in fact aren't just lying to everyone to hide their relationship status.

Unfortunately, this includes their origin episode -- in the original, they didn't know each other, and in the dub as they are cousins they do. If it weren't for that, then it'd be much less of an issue (theoretically, because many people will still make a big deal).

Of course, all THAT said, in the S series there's no real indication, even in the original, that they aren't more than just really close friends. In Stars, yes, they are much more clearly 'together', but the change wasn't even all that necessary in the first place.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:17 am

by Knight of L-sama wrote: 1: Many, if not most anime fans don't appreciate any changes from the original Japanese version. Basically what we want is a straight translation of the Japanese got.

Then those people must hate subtitles as well. :lol:

by Knight of L-sama wrote: 2: The reasons for this specific change. This was not an attempt to make Haruka and Michiru hiding their relationship from strangers in show, this is Cloverway attempting to completely hide the romantic nature of their relationship for reasons that can only be described as homophobic. You say it does nothing to change them but the intent was in fact to change a very significant point in their characterisation. Nor does it make the characters look clever, it merely makes Cloverway look incompetent since despite their intent they couldn't remove the romantic subtext.

Didn't the original version have Michuru deny being Haruka's lover while in the Cloverway Dub Michelle denies that Amara is her prince?

The fact of the matter is you can't say they are lovers based on the anime.

The cousins line makes perfect sense in context. In order for it to be described as homophobic in any way you have to take the line out of context, and that means the person taking the line out of context is the person lying.
Last edited by Zwzn on Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:18 am

by TerraEpon wrote: Incidently, if I remember right, there's actually one one or two spots where it could be that they in fact aren't just lying to everyone to hide their relationship status.

What episodes do you mean?

by TerraEpon wrote: Unfortunately, this includes their origin episode -- in the original, they didn't know each other, and in the dub as they are cousins they do. If it weren't for that, then it'd be much less of an issue (theoretically, because many people will still make a big deal).

They just say they are cousins, but we have no way to know if they are telling the truth or not from the episode. The truth is we know nothing about Uranus and Neptune's families from the anime and manga so they could be cousins, and there would be no canon contradiction like people seem to think.

I don't see why if U&N were cousins they would have had to know each other. I have a lot of family members that I can't recall ever meeting.

It certainly looked like U&N knew each other before being introduced to me in episode 106.

by TerraEpon wrote: Of course, all THAT said, in the S series there's no real indication, even in the original, that they aren't more than just really close friends. In Stars, yes, they are much more clearly 'together', but the change wasn't even all that necessary in the first place.

Season 5 has some continuity issues so it's best to ignore it when talking about season 1 through 4.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Knight of L-sama » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:45 pm

Zwzn wrote:Didn't the original version have Michuru deny being Haruka's lover while in the Cloverway Dub Michelle denies that Amara is her prince?

The fact of the matter is you can't say they are lovers based on the anime.


I remember that scene. The implication is more that they're relationship hadn't progressed that far yet (both of them being too focused on finding the Talismans to allow themselves to act on their mutual feelings). There are a few lines is Stars that imply that whatever they were doing during SuperS, one of them was that did get around to sorting that out.

Zwzn wrote:The cousins line makes perfect sense in context. In order for it to be described as homophobic in any way you have to take the line out of context, and that means the person taking the line out of context is the person lying.


I'm sorry but that's a complete load of male bovine excrement and you are the one not taking things in context. You're just looking at a very narrow comparison between the two versions without taking the wider issues into account. In the Japanese Michiru was at most being evasive, while the changes made in the English dub were made with the intent of changing the context of several other scenes from romantic subtext (and I will concede that in S it is only subtext. Very strong subtext, but still subtext) into familial affection. The reasons for these changes is that certain sections of the US population simply so homophobic that they can't deal with even a hint of homosexuality being shown in entertainment intended for a sub-adult audience, no matter the context.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:24 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I don't see anything wrong with it so long as they say it because they need to be tactful, regarding who they should share the knowledge of their relationship with. But if they say it because that's a reality that's being imposed by someone's censorship, I think it's a big deal because I don't like lies being told for no good reason. And, no, I don't think that children are a good enough reason. :P

Bah... Censorship or not... it is in there and thus part of canon materials released to the public.

Keep in mind a lot of fan fiction writers (esp Sailor Moon since it was widely available) watched dub anime... as such... they are going to use that background material. There are other drastic divergences between dub and sub.

Though I have to admit... I'm surprised I've not seen more mention of Makoto's mom in fan fiction, considering she is alive in the anime dub even if not sub, unless Usagi is a heartless bitch and Makoto and others present did not call her on it when she brought her up. Or Freddy, the name of Makotos boyfriend/sempai.

Personally, I really do not care all that much either way.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Wyrd » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:05 pm

In the subbed version and the original for both the anime and manga, both her parents are dead. They just didn't want to show someone who would not be allowed to live alone by American standards doing so, even if it were acceptable in Japan. I am also fairly certain that Japanese version never mentions who her old sempai is. It does have an episode where it talks about the good friend, Ken, she turned to every time her heart got broken by her latest infatuation, but I believe that episode made it clear in the subbed version that he was not the person she was comparing all other attractive males to.

I freely admit that I may be misremembering that episode, however.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:18 am

Wyrd wrote:In the subbed version and the original for both the anime and manga, both her parents are dead. They just didn't want to show someone who would not be allowed to live alone by American standards doing so, even if it were acceptable in Japan. I am also fairly certain that Japanese version never mentions who her old sempai is. It does have an episode where it talks about the good friend, Ken, she turned to every time her heart got broken by her latest infatuation, but I believe that episode made it clear in the subbed version that he was not the person she was comparing all other attractive males to.

I freely admit that I may be misremembering that episode, however.

I *know* they are dead in sub and manga. That was kind of the point of me bringing it up as being different... However, at one point in dub, Makoto and others are talking, and Usagi specifically mentioned Makotots mom, in the context that she is very much alive... and at least once it is mentioned her boyfriends name in dub is Freddie (or Freddy).

I merely meant I was surprised more have not used that in fan fiction, as I *have* seen the Michiru/Haruka as cousins in fan fiction.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:41 am

by Knight of L-sama wrote: I remember that scene. The implication is more that they're relationship hadn't progressed that far yet (both of them being too focused on finding the Talismans to allow themselves to act on their mutual feelings).

That is only your opinion which can't be proven.

The denying a relationship to strangers which they do in the original is no different then saying they are cousins.

by Knight of L-sama wrote: There are a few lines is Stars that imply that whatever they were doing during SuperS, one of them was that did get around to sorting that out.

Considering StarS(season 5) starts before SuperS(season 4) ends nothing can have happened between season 3 and 5 since season 5 can't have happened.

by Knight of L-sama wrote:
I'm sorry but that's a complete load of male bovine excrement and you are the one not taking things in context. You're just looking at a very narrow comparison between the two versions without taking the wider issues into account. In the Japanese Michiru was at most being evasive, while the changes made in the English dub were made with the intent of changing the context of several other scenes from romantic subtext (and I will concede that in S it is only subtext. Very strong subtext, but still subtext) into familial affection. The reasons for these changes is that certain sections of the US population simply so homophobic that they can't deal with even a hint of homosexuality being shown in entertainment intended for a sub-adult audience, no matter the context.
Subtext is all in your head, and open to interpretation. There is actually nothing in the original version that says with certainty that they are a couple in the anime, and given the major differences in plot between anime and manga there is no reason to assume they are a couple. They even added things in the English dub to imply Michelle and Amara are a couple that aren't there in the original.

You're getting up in arms over something that might not be there unlike the Artemis/Minako pairing. The English dub changes nothing about Michuru and Haruka relationship from the original version.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:46 am

by PCHeintz72 wrote: Though I have to admit... I'm surprised I've not seen more mention of Makoto's mom in fan fiction, considering she is alive in the anime dub even if not sub, unless Usagi is a heartless bitch and Makoto and others present did not call her on it when she brought her up.
Since it seems most viewers missed it, it's not hard to think it was missed in universe.

Given some of the stuff that happens in the series it's not hard to view Usagi as a girl who will do anything to get what she wants.
PCHeintz72 wrote:
I merely meant I was surprised more have not used that in fan fiction, as I *have* seen the Michiru/Haruka as cousins in fan fiction.

Well there isn't a source that says Michiru/Haruka aren't cousins, and the term kissing cousins isn't referring to a light peck on the cheek.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:21 pm

Given some of the stuff that happens in the series it's not hard to view Usagi as a girl who will do anything to get what she wants.

I have quite a number of views on Usagi... many SM fans seem to disagree with anime canon material, one once went to the trouble of defining two different anime Usagi's during a discussion with me on it, but in any case that is not what this thread is about.
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Re: Cousins: What's the Big Deal?

Postby ckosacranoid » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:01 pm

(INSEART WISECRACK)
well, something about being a redneck with them being cousins and all and even being in a romance...but nothing says i love you like keeping it in the famaily....
sorry. i just had to make a crack about this subject......
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