Great freeze

Discuss the Sailor Moon series in this forum.

Great freeze

Postby WG_Writer » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:18 am

I was wondering what everyone thought of using these as a ideas for the great freeze:

First some base line facts/assumptions:
1) The senshi were not able to stop/reverse/or be present for the great freeze
2) Humanity survived by cryo preserving themselves (Senshi doing it or by way of tech)
3) We need the senshi in a position afterwards to lead the survivors in the rebuild
4) To have some people dislike the current world. These can be people from the old world who were not happy with the direction of the new world, or new people who came about and held regular riots forcing their banishment forming the Dark Moon.

To answer the first assumption the power that causes the great freeze needs to be a "cloudy concept" something that the senshi cannot simply point and shoot or possibly reason with. Thus it needs to either be so powerful that it makes Chaos look weak, something weakens the senshi first, or something natural and natural in a way that anything that they do directly to stop it will simply be either ineffective, or more disasterous. Such as an event that they need to "move" the earth, this would probably cause untold disasters everywhere and likely erase Japan from the map. As an alternative and an easier one to accept I propose "unfinished business" of a more diplomatic nature. After Galaxia's defeat and the general restore of the universe someone has to step up and clean up the mess. This could take years, decades, or centuries, depending on how bad it is. iirc it was stated that Earth was the only planet with life still on it left. The Senshi could have left to see to these worlds and ensure that life was comming back and leaving a small task force to watch home.

The Second is easy enough of a problem to solve ironically as it shows that if a select group were to be cryo frozen that a) They saw the disaster coming, b) had time to prepare to survive it, but c) could not stop it.

Third problem is harder as the senshi while known as "local legends" would be widely unknowns. They would have to work hard to raise themselves to any position of power, but remember Usagi was ELECTED. So unless she mass brainwashed everyone which is possible but highly unlikely (unless the Dark moon was right in some way). They were instrumental in the rebuild.

And finally problem with the Dark Moon. We are not told very much about them and where they came from, just that they were banished originally for being unstable, and possibly that the group that attacked later were their decedents. This says to me that they were disruptive enough that they were wanted gone, but had not done anything warranting death outright, possibly through a pardon on Usagi's part. They must have had a generational ship. furthering the idea that Crystal Tokyo was established and stable at this time. So it was not likely people who were from the old world and unhappy with the new one. All this is only important to bring up one important point. The fact that the roots of this problem post date Crystal Tokyo show that the people who were cryo tubed had been screened to prevent just this from happening, hence adding more time to the "see problem, we need to freeze people, how long and how many can we succeed with issue"


Possibility #1 Most of the Senshi were off world at the time, and return to an ice ball. There were survivors who made it to safety, but the basic idea was someone who would have otherwise been a minor threat to the senshi got in a low shot when they weren't looking, and the clean up can either be done instantly with so much damage to the planet that they may as well say forget it, or wait it out and prepare those that survived for the later rebuild.

Possibility #2 "It was (him) -problem-" something that they couldn't fight directly. How exactly would they in modern times stop a world wide effort to stop global warming. especially if this effort is what leads to the great ice through accident, people realize the mistake and know that with this boo boo (Lets stop global warming by nuking volcanoes) they only have 10 years before a self caused eco melt down. so they draw lots pick needed people and freeze them.

Possibility #3 The great freeze only refers to the cryo freezing and not the world as a whole, say a nuclear war occurs that does major eco damage, reaction from the world is same as in situation #2


So here are my theories which are summed up as magic vs Human stupidity... unfortunately I think the one closest to the truth is stupidity as any magical problems are easily magiced away.
Storm trooper effect works against good guys as well.
No matter how strong you are, there is always a teenager able to beat you without breaking a sweat.
A blind Paladin can only hear half truths
A deaf Paladin can only see half truths
Either way the Paladin is a berserker
WG_Writer
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1086
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby mondu_the_fat » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:55 am

To answer the first assumption the power that causes the great freeze needs to be a "cloudy concept" something that the senshi cannot simply point and shoot or possibly reason with. Thus it needs to either be so powerful that it makes Chaos look weak, something weakens the senshi first, or something natural and natural in a way that anything that they do directly to stop it will simply be either ineffective, or more disasterous.


Possibility #2 "It was (him) -problem-" something that they couldn't fight directly. How exactly would they in modern times stop a world wide effort to stop global warming. especially if this effort is what leads to the great ice through accident, people realize the mistake and know that with this boo boo (Lets stop global warming by nuking volcanoes) they only have 10 years before a self caused eco melt down. so they draw lots pick needed people and freeze them.


This sounds good. Scientists around the world are convinced method X to stop global warming would work. Everyone also thinks it would work, including the senshi. The world cools down... but it doesn't stop cooling down. World governments are convinced that the new ice age will end soon. The senshi, at this point, can't really go into action without being labelled terrorists or something. The best they could do is _properly_ freeze some people (just freezing people will just kill them). When it becomes blindingly obvious that the world won't get warmer any time soon, Usagi gets elected as new world leader.

Third problem is harder as the senshi while known as "local legends" would be widely unknowns. They would have to work hard to raise themselves to any position of power, but remember Usagi was ELECTED


Rellaistically, though, I'd feel very uncomfortable with voting an immortal, magical woman and her friends in charge of the world. They're not exactly human that will face the same problems as the rest of mankind does. To put it another way, given all things equal, I'd elect Joe the Plumber rather than Joe the demi-god if only because Joe the Plumber would know what it feels like to be, well, mortal. And I'd certainly want a balance in power instead of an absolute monarch and her cronies.



Another problem with being elected into power is that their abilities are pretty much wasted when they're already in power. This would be like making superman president -- his powers aren't exactly useful as a leader, and being leader just takes away his time from doing super-y things. At best, he's a figure head or a rallying point, but as a leader, there are probably other people better qualified. Even Usagi would realize that in power, she and the rest of the senshi would have _less_ opportunities to use their abilities to help mankind.

Usagi campaigning would probably involve the same tactics. Not money, but time spent using her abilities. She has it even worse, because she has a PR nightmare to overcome -- she has to convince the rest of mankind that she's really one of them.

Plot-wise, it would be simpler is Usagi just grabbed the reigns of power, rather than being elected. Or she can be elected, but just gloss over exactly how the campaign was run, who she ran against, how power is distributed, that sort of thing (in other words, gloss over the politics).

Anyway. why does Usagi need to be the ruler of the world in order to save it, anywway? The only reason I can think of is that in saving the world, she needs resources that she would never have gotten or asked for if she weren't. Also, It has to be a resources for a _magical_ solution that only she can pull off, since if the solution were mundane then it doesn't have to be _her_ that leads the world. The fact that she can't ask for said resources (even to save the world) and instead has to be elected as a world ruler first may be a sticky plot point.

This says to me that they were disruptive enough that they were wanted gone, but had not done anything warranting death outright, possibly through a pardon on Usagi's part.


Just have the new world government ban capital punishment, no matter what the crime. With Usagi leader, that should work.
"So Igor wasn't kidding. Most people just ensure they won't die cold and alone by making friends...I gain superpowers and have mysterious voices tell me I did a good job. My life is a goddamn mess."
-- Minato Arisato, My Life is a Goddamn Mess
mondu_the_fat
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 919
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Drawde2 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:02 pm

mondu_the_fat wrote:Just have the new world government ban capital punishment, no matter what the crime. With Usagi leader, that should work.

That would solve the original Wiseman problem. He was banished not because Sailor Moon couldn't kill him, but because she wasn't legally allowed to do so. And it wasn't until later that he gained too much power to handle.
Drawde2
Senshi Candidate
Posts: 25
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Konsaki » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:15 am

Drawde2 wrote:That would solve the original Wiseman problem. He was banished not because Sailor Moon couldn't kill him, but because she wasn't legally allowed to do so. And it wasn't until later that he gained too much power to handle.
He should have had an 'accident'... :twisted:
Konsaki
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 726
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Cheb » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:04 am

Hmm... In the manga, there was an interesting explanation: NQS grew so mellow that she banished a supervillain (she laments later she should have just killed him). Her younger, much more radical self got directly to the point. It's a threat to the world? Kill it.

1) The senshi were not able to stop/reverse/or be present for the great freeze

They could intentionally flash-freeze entire planet (including themselves) when some, let's call it Virus, started spreading like plague. Cue a zombie apocalypse or a Hellsing-style WW3 with Nazi vampires spreding like plague. A total ecological collapse threatening to lead to mass starvation would do too. (or a cobalt bomb going off)

In short, it have to be something Senshi couldn't correct in time due tothe sheer scope of it, like saving a drowning ship with a teaspoon. By flash-freezing the world Usagi could stall the problem, then
a) spend a thousand years charging up Ginzuisho to solve the problem in one gargantuan spell,
or
b) defrost it bit by bit, on a scale allowing her to cure the Virus as soon as the next batch of people is restored to life.

2) Humanity survived by cryo preserving themselves (Senshi doing it or by way of tech)

Not likely. Thei civilization being magi-tech in both canons, Ami'd probably develop a spell, then Usagi execute it.
Any tech allows to save only a fraction of the population.

3) We need the senshi in a position afterwards to lead the survivors in the rebuild

Nothing easier. The saved people make NQS their queen out of sheer gratitude (and beat up anyone who opposes this idea nice and blue).
It's easier in the manga where she grants her subjects nigh immortality. An irresistible offer.

4) To have some people dislike the current world. These can be people from the old world who were not happy with the direction of the new world, or new people who came about and held regular riots forcing their banishment forming the Dark Moon.

Dark Moon were but a half dozen of idiots who stumbled on a demon offering them power, with usual strings attached.
In the manga they were affronted by the fact that common people could live for thousands of years.

P.S. But all in all, the great freeze is but one big, stupid plot hole. You do not exploit plot holes, you try to pretend they aren't there.
Proud owner of 1.5 kilograms of Germanium transistors
Cheb
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1549
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Comartemis » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:58 pm

Third problem is harder as the senshi while known as "local legends" would be widely unknowns. They would have to work hard to raise themselves to any position of power, but remember Usagi was ELECTED

This can be solved by forcing the Senshi to go public or having one of their battles take place in viewing range of a camera with a live satellite feed, perhaps during a major event like something involving the Emperor or the United Nations or something.
Currently Watching: Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu
Currently Playing: Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep
Currently Reading: Sora no Otoshimono

KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End.
Comartemis
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4559
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Wyrd » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:46 pm

A possibility for the great freeze is simply nuclear winter. The Senshi are powerful, but unless SM knew that the missiles were firing and could get up the emotional energy to fuel the ginzuishou while maintaining the focus to direct it, I don't see them as being able to stop waves of nuclear missiles. This is one of the few reasons I can think of for why the world would need to slumber for 1000 years before being warmed up: she was waiting for the nuclear fallout to clear enough. Another possibility for waiting to thaw the world is if she only puts humanity into suspension, and is waiting for the world to recover from all of the ecological damage we have done to it. If the great freeze were a natural ice age, then she might not have been able to avert it, only being able to speed up its end.

Another possibility from a fanfic I have seen, was that the solar system would pass through a cloud of dark matter. It was very diffuse, making it invisible to us without a light behind it, but when we reached it, it scattered just enough light to cool the Earth off. Usagi, while powerful, was not strong enough to disperse this massive a cloud, so she put the Earth in stasis until it had passed out of the other side of it. People tend to forget that our solar system is moving, both spinning around the center of the galaxy and moving up and down on the galactic plane over the course of millions of years. This movement is the main reason we still have comets, which generally only last a few thousand years before being burned to meteors or just dust by the sun. As our sun moves, the balance of gravity around it from other suns shifts, knocking bits of the Oort cloud either in towards us or out to get lost in the vastness of space, generating periodic increases in comets and meteors. We are entering the peak end of meteor activity now, and will stay in it for the next million years or so(I'm going off of memory here, so excuse me if I'm off. I just recall it being a very large number, and the cycle length being something around 100 million years).

If the magic that warms the planet up requires sustained energy from Usagi, then one option for why the world accepts her as leader could be to fuel the ginzuishou. We are talking about magic here, so it is possible that all it would take for her to be able to siphon excess magical energy from people, at no harm to them, would be an oath of fealty giving her permission to do so. I made a comment in the 'making the big bads not so bad' thread regarding how I would make Neo-queen Serenity less of a bad guy, as well as making the Black Moon Clan more sympathetic. When it works, absolute monarchy is one of the best, most effective forms of government, able to cut through so much of the bureaucracy that can cripple more egalitarian systems. When it doesn't work, on the other hand, it can be one of the worst forms of government, actually making things worse for its citizens than pure anarchy. Usagi banishing everyone who doesn't agree to her leadership doesn't look good for her as a good leader without some extenuating circumstances.

Fear not the evil man, for he serves only himself, and his harm can be limited. Fear the good man, for in his attempts to save others from themselves, his harm can know no bounds.

edit:
P.S. But all in all, the great freeze is but one big, stupid plot hole. You do not exploit plot holes, you try to pretend they aren't there.


Some of the most interesting stories I have read in long running series were built around what was originally a plot hole, turning it into a fascinating plot twist. The plot hole here is too big, ragged, and gaping to fill in in a canon sense, but it can be used in a fanon sense as a valuable plot thread.

The next bit refers to a fanfic, and includes spoilers to the end of the story. Read at your own risk:
SPOILER - Show Spoiler
One example I have read: A fukufic that was also a Lovecraft crossover where Ranma was Saturn. When they were fighting Pharaoh 90, Ranma employed the DRR, destroying Pharaoh 90 and starting to destroy the world when Usagi used the ginzuishou to stop it. The two magics battled for 1000 years before the ginzuishou was finally triumphant, in the process incidentally destroying all of the Lovecraftian creatures that had infested the world in the time since the fall of the Moon Kingdom. The primary humans to survive were a small group that Usagi saved by sending them into the dreamlands, where they didn't age while they waited until the world was ready for them to return.
Wyrd
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 126
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Cheb » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:23 pm

Spoiler

Ooh, that's one of my favorite ones :)

too big, ragged, and gaping to fill in in a canon sense, but it can be used in a fanon sense as a valuable plot thread.

So very true.
Sadly, more often than not people just bitch about it or even worse, they try to deconstruct it.
As the anime continuity itself is a deconstruction, this sort of childish behavior rarely ends well. :(
Proud owner of 1.5 kilograms of Germanium transistors
Cheb
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1549
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:15 am

The Great Freeze is easy enough to explain: the kami (both good and bad) throw a tantrum. It's called Fimbulwinter, prelude to Ragnarok. The postludes to Different Colors will eventually reach that point.
Visit Big Washuu's Lab of Arcane Knowledge at http://washuu.net
Ellen Kuhfeld
User avatar
Sailor Starlight
Posts: 2228
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Zwzn » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:26 am

Third problem is harder as the senshi while known as "local legends" would be widely unknowns. They would have to work hard to raise themselves to any position of power, but remember Usagi was ELECTED


Comartemis wrote:This can be solved by forcing the Senshi to go public or having one of their battles take place in viewing range of a camera with a live satellite feed, perhaps during a major event like something involving the Emperor or the United Nations or something.

There is Sailor Moon underwear by season three. :roll:

The senshi fight in some rather crowded places. The death busters were not shy, and attacked very famous people with large crowds and cameras around. The Dead Moon Circus attacked a diplomat/princess or something like that, and in the season final invaded everywhere, and froze the planet.

The anime Sailor Senshi are very well known by the end of season 4.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Zwzn » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:39 am

Cheb wrote:P.S. But all in all, the great freeze is but one big, stupid plot hole. You do not exploit plot holes, you try to pretend they aren't there.
How is it a plot hole?

The Dead Moon Circus froze the Earth at the end of season 4, and Chibi-Usa had the Golden Crystal in her possession while wishing to be born with all her heart and soul.

Sailor moon Episode 158-159 clearly shows the results of the Dead Moon Circus's attack on Helios's realm, and they did the same to the Earth.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Cheb » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:17 pm

How is it a plot hole?

As a plot element, it's implemented in a half-assed ill-thought way bringing more problems that it solves.
Why couldn't they keep chibi-Usa 900 years old? It fits her character perfectly, she's too obnoxious and has an Electra complex the size of Tokyo.
Proud owner of 1.5 kilograms of Germanium transistors
Cheb
User avatar
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1549
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Zwzn » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:36 pm

How is it a plot hole?

Cheb wrote:As a plot element, it's implemented in a half-assed ill-thought way bringing more problems that it solves.

It could have been handled better, but it makes sense with the way season 4 ended, and the inconsistencies in season 5.

Cheb wrote:Why couldn't they keep chibi-Usa 900 years old? It fits her character perfectly, she's too obnoxious and has an Electra complex the size of Tokyo.
The 900 hundred year old Chibi-Usa was one of the stupidest things in the manga. It makes the future senshi look either insane, or evil/corrupt. It just does not make sense unless it is something the Queen wanted. There are mothers who just don't want their children to grow up.

Are we ever actually told Chibi-Usa's age in the anime?

So long as she acts the part I don't see what Chibi-Usa's age matters?
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby Wyrd » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:32 pm

Are we ever actually told Chibi-Usa's age in the anime?


No. It is left to the viewer to come to their own conclusions about her age, but the great freeze also only happens in the anime, so it is reasonable to think that she wasn't born for so long because they were waiting until the world would be a better place before having children. Also, we don't know if Chibi-usa has any siblings, though if she does they don't appear to have been involved in her life.

Chibi-usa being 900 years old but still a child was supposed to be the result of an accident when Usagi made everyone on Earth long-lived after purifying them, though the fact that she starts aging after she taps into her Senshi powers suggests that she may have been doing it to herself, however unintentionally. One comment made, I forget in which episode, was that she couldn't grow up until she was ready for her powers.
Wyrd
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 126
 

Re: Great freeze

Postby TerraEpon » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:51 am

A lot of fanfic has the 'Great Freeze' lasting quite a short time, and that Crystal Tolyo has been in existence for all those hundreds of years. One story (Andy Combs's Rabbit Test) simply has Endymion becoming sterile at some unknown point, which forces Serenity to go back into time to have Chibi-Usa, and that's why...
TerraEpon
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 622
 

Next

Return to Specific Series: Sailor Moon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users