Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:35 pm

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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby SethBlade » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:49 am

Typically, in cannon and fannon, when Wiseman destroyed Nemesis, an asteroid passes within the magnetic field of Earths orbit, causing it to blot out the sun with the volcanoes and ashes that spring up, like a nuclear winter. That actually seems like the most plausible explanation to the Great Freeze, than anything else. Either that, or The Day After Tomorrow blending of such things. It explains everything, and keeps in context with the whole idea of one event causing a "Great Freeze" in what seems like an almost near instant time, like it was alluded to in the manga and anime.

To me, it seems like they are probably the only two actual possibilities, than anything else.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Quickshot0 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:50 am

Ahah... that makes no sense at all... I mean the agent is wrong really, and the point of time is wrong too... Also I can't remember an asteroid passing Earth in canon during that time frame.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:44 am

That's because I checked the course of the local NEAs, found the offender, and blew it up already.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:06 pm

SethBlade wrote:...like it was alluded to in the manga and anime.
It's just the anime. The manga offers a more sensible story for what happened during the one-thousand-year time frame. I have to point this out since the Sailor Moon anime is one of those series that's a scourge of bad ideas and poor development/planning.

The biggest problem with the "great freeze", that I see, is choosing a cause that also explains why Usagi didn't get around to ending it until after a thousand years had passed. I've wracked my brain, but I can't think of anything. But that's just me. ;p
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Pusakuronu » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:17 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:The biggest problem with the "great freeze", that I see, is choosing a cause that also explains why Usagi didn't get around to ending it until after a thousand years had passed. I've wracked my brain, but I can't think of anything. But that's just me. ;p


Maybe she was busy being dead? When I first saw the R season and learned that the senshi were active a thousand years later, I kind of defaulted to the conclusion "Oh, they have been reborn again", and not "whoa, they are still alive". The latter idea didn't even occur to me until fanfiction exposed me to it.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:22 pm

But why would they die and everyone else (ordinary folk) remain alive but in a cryogenic stasis (and who would they be born to, since everyone's not exactly in a position to give birth)? Or why would they also fall victim to the same cryogenic stasis only for Usagi to come out of it when the situation still remains the same when she does (because, if the world's situation hasn't changed in a thousand years, why should her own state change)?

Whenever I try to come up with an answer to these questions, I can only think of something far-fetched, something that places the suspension of disbelief on a suspension bridge of plank and rope that had seen better days. But, maybe my expectations are just too high, and fan-fiction readers will settle for flimsy explanations. From experience, I guess that's not too far-fetched of a development...
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Pusakuronu » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:38 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:But why would they die and everyone else (ordinary folk) remain alive but in a cryogenic stasis (and who would they be born to, since everyone's not exactly in a position to give birth)?


Maybe they died long before? We don't know when the Great Freeze happened.
The second part can be explained by not everyone being frozen. Maybe there were vault-dwellers somewhere? An off-world colony?

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: Or why would they also fall victim to the same cryogenic stasis only for Usagi to come out of it when the situation still remains the same when she does (because, if the world's situation hasn't changed in a thousand years, why should her own state change)?


Is it actually ever stated that the people survived the ice, and weren't just resurrected by Usagi using the Silver Crystal to selectively rewrite reality (again)?
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:37 am

Given that in the anime Nehellenia caused a great freeze when she invaded Helios's world, and the fact season 5 starts before season 4 ends I think there may be a connection.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Konsaki » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:54 am

If one were writing a fanfic and needed a plotline of this sort, Usagi could have done a 2 part spell which locked people into stasis and then teleported them somewhere safe (old moon base if the entire Earth is screwed). The spell would be timed for 1000 years (Given Usagi's lack of knowledge on mass disasters and Setsuna's suggestion) before returning everyone back to Earth and unlocking them. Course, if I were to use this device, I would make it only work on Silver Energy sensitive people, thereby weeding out everyone who couldnt use said energy. This allows the 'future' timeline to still work, as everyone there pretty much everyone can use the energy except for a low percentage due to genetic chance.

An easy answer as to why the Freeze happens is barreling down on us in real life: Dec 2012. Just have the planets 'align' and the magnetic poles swap/shift on the planet, causing super volcanoes all over the place and blotting out the sun for X number of years.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:26 am

There are several problems with the ideas given in the first paragraph. First, it's already clearly mentioned that the "great freeze" is the cause of the stasis, not by any action on Usagi's part. And then there's the part where Usagi used the power of the ginzuishou to return the world to normal. Not only that time, but on other occasions (such as at the end of of the third and fourth seasons/story arcs, in particular) she has reversed world-wide death and destruction. So, the question then becomes: if she could do that, not once but several times, then why wait one-thousand years to return the Earth's condition back to normal?

And, no, Pluto wouldn't tell her to wait because she's a time spy and knows what's best for the future. I wish that fanon idea would get shot, chopped up, burned, and then be scattered to the four winds. >_<

Zwzn wrote:Given that in the anime Nehellenia caused a great freeze when she invaded Helios's world, and the fact season 5 starts before season 4 ends I think there may be a connection.
Not so much a connection as bad decisions by those responsible for producing the anime.

Pusakuronu wrote:Maybe they died long before?

An event as significant as that would have been mentioned (like the other times they died and were reborn). It wasn't.

We don't know when the Great Freeze happened.

Considering that the "great freeze" lasted for a very long time, until the thirtieth century, it probably began not many years after Galaxia. If we use the manga as a reference, which pretty much establishes the same ideas in a lot of areas (just through different means), it makes enough sense to come to that conclusion. Sure, you could say that any length of time could have passed, since no specific time frame was given, but considering how the words used in a series can play significant roles... Such as, for instance, "silver millennium." It's not uncommon for certain time frames to be used to signify some pattern; especially in tales regarding fate/destiny.


The second part can be explained by not everyone being frozen. Maybe there were vault-dwellers somewhere? An off-world colony?

It's made quite clear that the "earth", as it's used, means "everyone and everything." Actually, I think I recall "every being" mentioned at some point. I'd look back on my previous posts, but I'm tired and thus lazy, but I'm pretty sure I've got it right. Besides, if some people did make it, it probably would have been mentioned. Like, say, "and it took those that escaped being 'frozen' a long time before they rescued [add the right person here, who is either Usagi or can then rescue Usagi]." Why leave a gaping hole like that open? But that's how ridiculously far-fetched the ideas have to be to explain the inconsistencies alongside with what is unknown.


Is it actually ever stated that the people survived the ice, and weren't just resurrected by Usagi using the Silver Crystal to selectively rewrite reality (again)?

Well, there wasn't a need to use euphemisms for "death", so I'm pretty sure that a word like "sleep", in conjunction with "awaken", means exactly what it's supposed to mean.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Quickshot0 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:12 am

Crescent, I'm not quite sure why you are certain the Great Freeze had to have happened after Galaxia. Considering the time traveling interventions already present it is the most likely conclusion, but not the only one. One could speculate after all, that the interventions did in the end change the time line after all. As such one can not entirely ignore the possibility that some enemy didn't show up or did but was defeated. Thus the event that would have started the Great Freeze might have ended up eliminated or perhaps greatly delayed I suppose, thus leading to the entire time line shifting radically. (This is also helped by the bad decisions made in the later seasons by the producers. :wink: ) As for a reason why she doesn't fix it right away, typically one would then assume something is stopping her from doing so. Either a powerful natural or supernatural force, intelligent or otherwise. In such a case you'd only return once it weakened or you gained enough strength to defeat it for sure. (Given that every one is in stasis, there is no reason to take unneeded risks after all)

On a secondary note, I think Konsaki that perhaps you could use some more learning on how things actually work. For instance magnetic pole reversals aren't any where near that dramatic. :(
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Pusakuronu » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:18 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:An event as significant as that would have been mentioned (like the other times they died and were reborn). It wasn't.


Assuming that it WAS a significant event, and not just them dying from old age after a long and prosperous life. We know that the ancient Lunarians had a long lifespan, but the reborn senshi are human.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:It's made quite clear that the "earth", as it's used, means "everyone and everything." Actually, I think I recall "every being" mentioned at some point.


Well, I can only go judge from the fansub for that episode I have, quoted here:

"A great calamity befell the Earth that you live on now. And the Earth settled into a cold sleep. It slumbered on for a long, long time. In time, it became the thirtieth century And with the power of the Silver Crystal and Neo Queen Serenity, Earth was awakened."

The first part especially seem very specific about it being the Earth that was affected, rather than a more far-reaching problem. Similarly, a "long, long time" could mean a century as easily as a millenium. There's also no mention at all about what exactly happened to the people.

To get back to the thread topic, the sequence showing Neo-Queen Serenity turning back the Earth from a white ball completely covered in ice to its normal state took less than ten seconds for the entire planet to revert back to normal. From that, we know that whatever caused the planet was still completely frozen after all this time, and hadn't started to thaw out on its own. This means that either some ongoing effect was keeping it frozen, or the conditions in the solar system had been altered. It was no permanent alteration, otherwise it should have refrozen when the silver crystal was lost (unless Serenity reverted that too). Thus, either there was some long-duration astronomical change that she decided to wait out before reviving the world, or it was some ongoing effect, indicating enemy action.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Quickshot0 wrote:Crescent, I'm not quite sure why you are certain the Great Freeze had to have happened after Galaxia.

The answer to that is easy: everything of importance that happened, and made it possible for the story to be what it was, was shown to us. Beyond princess Kaguya, who was taken care of, there was no "great freeze" that took place before Galaxia. It can't because it'd contradict the time that we know Galaxia arrived on Earth. Especially since we know that the "great freeze", no matter when it starts, lasts until the thirtieth century. What are you going to do, spit in the face of the canon's reality by throwing out an entire story arc or two?

Trying to say that time traveling interventions makes it possible is wrong, because there's only three instances of time travel intervention and we know of their effects on the timeline already. (The three I'm referring to, of course, is the time travel in the second season, Chibi-Usa's routine time travel between the past and the future, and Chibi-Chibi time traveling to the past in the last season.) You can't make up just any time travel intervention without regard to the facts of what happened in canon. To do so is for an alternate universe in fan-fiction. And since this forum is not for the creation of things that don't exist, and is meant to refer to every official medium of the Sailor Moon universe (anime, manga, live-action, et cetera), I'm absolutely certain that the "great freeze" didn't happen before Galaxia.

Pusakuronu wrote:Assuming that it WAS a significant event, and not just them dying from old age after a long and prosperous life. We know that the ancient Lunarians had a long lifespan, but the reborn senshi are human.

No, they're all human to begin with, regardless of what moon or planet they're from. What makes them different is their star seeds. While their bodies are expendable, they live forever as senshi, since star seeds can only be destroyed in the galaxy cauldron, where they were formed. In the manga, before the last story arc, the explanation for anyone being long-lived was due to the power of the ginzuishou. I don't think the age aspect of it ever came up in the anime and, frankly, I'd rather not have to watch through several episodes to find out.

But, let's put it like this: which sounds right, within the context of the Sailor Moon universe?

1: after peaceful lives, absent of any strife, the senshi die, and just happen to be reborn when they're needed again.

2: after a dramatic defeat, or a great struggle that seems endless, the senshi regroup in the next life to conquer the foe that had, ultimately, been victorious after their sacrifice.

The answer is clear. Such a thing happened... at least five times. (All of the senshi, plus Endymion, at the very beginning. All of the senshi, after the defeat of Metallia. Pluto, after sacrificing herself to stop time. Saturn, after destroying Pharoah 90. And all of the senshi in the galaxy (at least; I'm not sure about any other star seeds) after Chaos was defeated by Usagi in the galaxy cauldron.) Dying peacefully never happened. In reality, sure, such an idea is a possibility. But it wouldn't in this universe because that's just not how Sailor Moon stories are told.

The first part especially seem very specific about it being the Earth that was affected, rather than a more far-reaching problem. Similarly, a "long, long time" could mean a century as easily as a millenium. There's also no mention at all about what exactly happened to the people.

The absence of people being mentioned means that "earth" was likely meant to include its inhabitants as well. I mean, with such a "great calamity", one would expect someone to mention what happened to the people, if they had been spared from what happened: "Fortunately, we were able to relocate the people of earth in time, et cetera, et cetera."

As for how long a "long, long time" is, it's more likely closer to one-thousand years than a hundred. Not only because there was a Silver Millennium (in the past and future), but for the fact that the story drops at the end of the twentieth century (a millennium) and picks back up at the thirtieth century (another millennium). It could have been any other date, one of nine other numbers that weren't zero, but they weren't. Especially in the anime is this number made more significant, since the Silver Millennium of the past was said to have existed/ended one-thousand years ago. It's not a number of coincidence; it's design.

To get back to the thread topic, the sequence showing Neo-Queen Serenity turning back the Earth from a white ball completely covered in ice to its normal state took less than ten seconds for the entire planet to revert back to normal. From that, we know that whatever caused the planet was still completely frozen after all this time, and hadn't started to thaw out on its own. This means that either some ongoing effect was keeping it frozen, or the conditions in the solar system had been altered. It was no permanent alteration, otherwise it should have refrozen when the silver crystal was lost (unless Serenity reverted that too). Thus, either there was some long-duration astronomical change that she decided to wait out before reviving the world, or it was some ongoing effect, indicating enemy action.

The problem with that is, by the time it's possible for the "great freeze" to happen, there's really nothing that Usagi can't do with the power of the ginzuishou. We know this because the world in the future, after being all but destroyed by the Dark Moon (including the inhabitants), is completely reversed. And if it was because of an enemy, something like that would have been mentioned as the cause of the delay. Again, the mistake being made, here, is thinking that it's alright to make up things just because an explanation isn't specific enough, and coming up with them without any basis for what has happened in the story before. For instance, we know that Neo Queen Serenity didn't get around to resolving the issue with the Dark Moon because, due to an enemy attack, she was encased in the same crystal as the ginzuishou. But we know that a great calamity happened to cause the whole of Earth to become frozen over, not an enemy. As for something ongoing on the planet, that's nothing that the ginzuishou can't solve. As for something changing in the solar system, to make the Earth that cold... what would it be? For the most part, there are only two sides to this equation: the condition of the Earth (which can be fixed with the ginzuishou), and the condition of the sun (which, in all likelihood, can also be fixed with the ginzuishou; though I doubt it'd be an issue with the sun since it's never mentioned and over its lifespan its condition has been fairly consistent). The only other idea that comes to mind is the Earth somehow drifting into an orbit further from the sun, but that'd take much longer than a thousand years to make any significant impact, and I don't see how the ginzuishou can't be used to solve that problem, too.

And there's another thing, which I just thought of. I can't remember if their lifespan was ever addressed in the anime (much less mentioned), like it was in the manga, but everyone being frozen into a state of stasis would explain why everyone doesn't look much older than they did in the twentieth century, and it would also account for Chibi-Usa's age. Which would also offer a nice tie-in with the estimated time that the "great freeze" took place. The only remaining problem, as it has always been, is why it's not until the thirtieth century that Usagi is able to fix things up.
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Re: Possible cause of the Great Freeze?

Postby TerraEpon » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:48 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote: Especially in the anime is this number made more significant, since the Silver Millennium of the past was said to have existed/ended one-thousand years ago.


Isn't this only in the dub?
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