What do you think about the senshi's mission?

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What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:31 pm

I feel sad about the senshi's fate. Aside from Usagi, who gets to enjoy at least some of her dreams, the others have to abandon theirs to serve her as senshi full-time. Or, at least, there's nothing to suggest that they would get to live out their dreams in the future. And it's questionable if being a senshi is a dream that any of them share, since many of them end up reminding themselves to devote themselves to being a senshi more than once. Personally, I can understand dedicating one's time for that sort of thing, but I don't see why they can't enjoy the other things that are important to them, since Usagi gets to, whether they truly enjoy being senshi all of the time or not.

Just some random thought I had. What are your thoughts about it?
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:51 pm

I say that the Senshi being dedicated to have their futures completely devoted to the Serenity line in a personal way is more likely a perversion of what it would have been in the Silver Milennium caused by the memory gaps. After all if the princesses of each of the worlds were to be private and personal guards of the Queen of the Silver Millenium why there still be the title of princess or connections to those worlds beyond being batteries?
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:08 pm

The way you worded it makes me unsure of what you're saying. And I don't know what you mean by the perversion and the memory gaps. Maybe you could clarify it for me?

It seems like protecting Earth is the most important thing. Even in the past they were Usagi's personal guard, despite being "princesses", as the Moon Kingdom watched over Earth and tried to guide it. I honestly don't understand the point of being a princess when you're the guard of a princess, even if she does eventually becomes a queen. Aside from them, Pluto had restricted interaction with the world beyond the fourth dimension, while guarding the time gate (and seems to still be at it in the future). And Uranus and Neptune were alone protecting the solar system from invasion, and I can only assume that they went back to doing that (possibly with Saturn) in the future.

I dunno. I certainly don't envy them. :(
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:10 pm

IF they guarded over Earth why wasn't it a part of the Silver Millenium?

And I can't see how I was confusing in what I said earlier. So rather than causing further confusion I'm leaving it.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:22 pm

Spokavriel wrote: IF they guarded over Earth why wasn't it a part of the Silver Millenium?

It didn't have to be. But that's what Queen Serenity (Usagi's mother) said. (In the manga, at least. In addition to protecting the ginzuishou.)

And I can't see how I was confusing in what I said earlier. So rather than causing further confusion I'm leaving it.

Well, that was unexpected and cold. What brought that on? O.o;
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Knight of L-sama » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:35 am

I don't really see it actually. Yes they remain Usagi's protectors into the future but that doesn't automatically preclude them having their own personal lives. The only time we really see them is during the Black Moon invasion which would be abnormal conditions, especially since they're at one end of a pre-destination paradox and knew it was coming. For all we know they could spend most of their time off doing their own thing and only get together on special occasions.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Drawde » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:15 am

I haven't read the manga, but I've read a few times about the original Mars taking a vow of chastity in order to serve her Princess better. If Rei is anything like that, serving Usagi would BE her idea of a good future.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:07 am

Then you must have read it in fan-fiction, right? Well, I can't say that I recall such a vow in the manga; and I have no idea if it was ever said in the anime. But it's hard to imagine in the anime, since they butchered her character... In the manga, she's just not interested in a relationship with men. While she wants to take over the shrine after her grandfather, the fourth story arc more or less tells us that the true dreams of every senshi is to, well, be a senshi. Rei probably has the least amount of heart in doing anything other than that, as far as I can tell. But Makoto, for instance, seemed to have a strong desire to get married and have a bakery/be a florist (can't remember which).

Perhaps it was just selfishness on her part, but Usagi's mother didn't reincarnate the senshi for the sole purpose of being a senshi in their next life, too. And by selfish, I mean that it was probably only meant for her daughter. I can't remember.

Knight of L-sama wrote:I don't really see it actually. Yes they remain Usagi's protectors into the future but that doesn't automatically preclude them having their own personal lives. The only time we really see them is during the Black Moon invasion which would be abnormal conditions, especially since they're at one end of a pre-destination paradox and knew it was coming. For all we know they could spend most of their time off doing their own thing and only get together on special occasions.

You bring up a good point. Maybe that is so. But, maybe not. Technically, yes, they should have expected it. But they didn't seem to. More importantly, though, is that the outer senshi, for the most part, weren't present. The only one we saw was Pluto, who didn't seem to have a life outside of her duty. One can only assume that the outer senshi returned to their prior duty, as well. (Even though their absence was probably due to the author not having a reason to think that far ahead, yet; or something like that.) But, no, I wouldn't disregard the possibility. It may depend on whether you're pessimistic or optimistic, on what one would think would be the most likely reality. At least I, personally, would hope that Usagi wouldn't run things like her mother did.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Comartemis » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:24 pm

Then you must have read it in fan-fiction, right? Well, I can't say that I recall such a vow in the manga; and I have no idea if it was ever said in the anime.

I've heard that too, but not from a fanfic. If I recall correctly, it was mentioned during the SuperS manga when Rei was undergoing a trial of character at the hands of one of her enemies. I think she was being tempted to lay down her duty and go back to being a normal person and she rejected the idea outright.

But Makoto, for instance, seemed to have a strong desire to get married and have a bakery/be a florist (can't remember which).

I sincerely doubt that being a Senshi precludes getting married at some point, though if you believe the "immortal senshi" theory they'd better have a way to share the wealth if they don't want to inevitably become widows at some point.

Perhaps it was just selfishness on her part, but Usagi's mother didn't reincarnate the senshi for the sole purpose of being a senshi in their next life, too. And by selfish, I mean that it was probably only meant for her daughter. I can't remember.

I don't think Serenity's intentions can be discerned one way or the other, though I seem to recall her wishing for their happiness in her last moments in the anime.

You bring up a good point. Maybe that is so. But, maybe not. Technically, yes, they should have expected it. But they didn't seem to. More importantly, though, is that the outer senshi, for the most part, weren't present. The only one we saw was Pluto, who didn't seem to have a life outside of her duty. One can only assume that the outer senshi returned to their prior duty, as well. (Even though their absence was probably due to the author not having a reason to think that far ahead, yet; or something like that.)

SM was one of those series that wasn't supposed to progress past the first season but wound up being so popular that more material was created to meet demand. I doubt Naoko had the Outers planned out except maybe as vague ideas when she was making R, but in-series their absences could be explained in any number of ways; maybe they were killed fending off the initial assault, or maybe they were just critically wounded and spent the Future Arc recovering somewhere off-screen.

But, no, I wouldn't disregard the possibility. It may depend on whether you're pessimistic or optimistic, on what one would think would be the most likely reality. At least I, personally, would hope that Usagi wouldn't run things like her mother did.

Optimism is the way to go with a series like Sailor Moon, which is part of the reason why I disregard the Despotic Crystal Tokyo theory as ten tons of bullshit. That being said, what's wrong with the way QS ran things?
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:55 pm

Comartemis wrote:I've heard that too, but not from a fanfic. If I recall correctly, it was mentioned during the SuperS manga when Rei was undergoing a trial of character at the hands of one of her enemies. I think she was being tempted to lay down her duty and go back to being a normal person and she rejected the idea outright.

What does that have to do with chastity? XD But, like I said, Rei didn't have strong dreams like the others. She herself thought that, compared to herself, the others had large dreams. In the end, it seems like their past lives overwhelm whatever dreams they would have experienced if they hadn't become senshi.

I sincerely doubt that being a Senshi precludes getting married at some point, though if you believe the "immortal senshi" theory they'd better have a way to share the wealth if they don't want to inevitably become widows at some point.

I'm just pointing out that the only one shown to be more than just senshi is Usagi. She's the only one that's married and has had offspring. No one else is shown to have a significant other, aside from Uranus and Neptune; well, if you can call them that. (Though Rei isn't interested in that sort of thing.)

I don't think Serenity's intentions can be discerned one way or the other, though I seem to recall her wishing for their happiness in her last moments in the anime.

Here's what she says in the manga, just so you understand where I'm coming from:

"But don't forget that you are also a young woman. The real reason why you were reborn is there..."

And then she starts to break up. Before she vanishes, she does say, as in the anime, that she hopes that her daughter finds happiness.

SM was one of those series that wasn't supposed to progress past the first season but wound up being so popular that more material was created to meet demand. I doubt Naoko had the Outers planned out except maybe as vague ideas when she was making R, but in-series their absences could be explained in any number of ways; maybe they were killed fending off the initial assault, or maybe they were just critically wounded and spent the Future Arc recovering somewhere off-screen.

I doubt they would have been killed... And if they were in the same condition as the inner senshi, they should have been shown lying in the room with them. And if they were guarding the solar system from invasion, there's no telling if they'd abandon their post and appear later. But, yeah, it can go either way since continuing stories hadn't been (thoroughly) planned by then.

That being said, what's wrong with the way QS ran things?

She already had the inner senshi acting as Usagi's guards when they were children (even if they were still in training, in general), likely meaning little to no childhood. Saturn was sealed away, so she had no life at all. Pluto was sheltered away, meant to be alone, and that was the case until a thousand years after the story's end. (And since her service began in the Silver Millennium... That's a long, long time.) And Uranus and Neptune had no one but themselves on the outer reaches of the solar system, away from everyone and everything.

I'm just no fan of people being treated like tools, and nothing more. I don't know if I should feel worse if they were all raised to live to be nothing but what they became.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Comartemis » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:51 pm

What does that have to do with chastity? XD

It's a symbol of loyalty, presumably. I'd need to check the manga again but I don't have the relevant volumes available to me.

She already had the inner senshi acting as Usagi's guards when they were children (even if they were still in training, in general), likely meaning little to no childhood.

Actually I think that's pretty common in real royalty, not something QS came up with. If I've got my facts straight, body doubles and body guards have often been raised alongside the people they're supposed to protect in order to give the guard a personal interest in protecting their charge.

Further, I find it highly doubtful that Queen Serenity would have had the Senshi brought up The Spartan Way when she's trying to help them form attachments to her daughter. It seems to me that the best way to go about making bodyguards the Senshi way would be to give them a few years as normal kids during which they bond as friends before introducing combat training and such. While Serenity is taking lessons on politics or spellcasting or whatever the Senshi are going through combat training. They were never ordinary kids to begin with, not even the Princess, so it's not really logical to expect them to have "childhoods" as we would think of them.

Saturn was sealed away, so she had no life at all.

It's been a while since I've read the manga or seen the anime versions of this part of the story, but wasn't Saturn sealed before Serenity even came into power?

I'm just no fan of people being treated like tools, and nothing more.

I can see the logic in that argument, but from what we've seen of the past Senshi, none of them really had any issues with their roles (aside from Saturn, possibly, but I don't think she ever gives her opinions on Serenity's decisions in the manga or the anime). I agree that it's generally a bad idea to use people as tools, but if the wishes of those people coincide with their assigned roles, is it really such a bad thing?

The modern Senshi, at the very least, have chosen by their own wills to follow Usagi. While I can't recall whether the others ever had this choice presented to them, Ami had the option of leaving the team and pursuing her dreams of becoming a doctor early in the second season and decided she would rather stay with the Senshi. The others all had lives of their own as well, and at any given moment they could have thrown in the towel and said "I'm done with this" and Usagi would have let them go because she cares more about her friends than about herself. Seen in that light, Crystal Tokyo and the roles of the Senshi as NQS's bodyguards isn't some destined fate that was plotted out in advance (by Pluto, if you believe the conspiracy theorists), but the end result of the choices the Senshi made throughout the series.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:35 pm

Comartemis wrote:It's a symbol of loyalty, presumably. I'd need to check the manga again but I don't have the relevant volumes available to me.

Not a symbol of loyalty. ^^; Mars was already against having relationships with men before she said anything about already having someone that she was devoted to (Usagi). In the manga, anyway. Though, technically, that's not really chastity since she doesn't explicitly say that she won't have any sex at all.

Actually I think that's pretty common in real royalty, not something QS came up with. If I've got my facts straight, body doubles and body guards have often been raised alongside the people they're supposed to protect in order to give the guard a personal interest in protecting their charge.

I wasn't arguing that what she was doing was original; just the practice of it itself.

Further, I find it highly doubtful that Queen Serenity would have had the Senshi brought up The Spartan Way when she's trying to help them form attachments to her daughter. It seems to me that the best way to go about making bodyguards the Senshi way would be to give them a few years as normal kids during which they bond as friends before introducing combat training and such. While Serenity is taking lessons on politics or spellcasting or whatever the Senshi are going through combat training. They were never ordinary kids to begin with, not even the Princess, so it's not really logical to expect them to have "childhoods" as we would think of them.

They were already in their senshi outfits and protective of Usagi when she was a baby. It's more likely that Queen Serenity hard-wired it into their brains what they were supposed to live for, and I think it's possible since those with Sailor Crystals are destined to protect what they represent, not a specific person.

It's been a while since I've read the manga or seen the anime versions of this part of the story, but wasn't Saturn sealed before Serenity even came into power?

No. Normally those with Sailor Crystals will awaken on their own, but the talismans act as a key to releasing Saturn only under specific circumstances. Since Queen Serenity arrived in the solar system millions of years ago, supposedly when it was still young and forming (we know from science that that's wrong, but that's what the author says), and drove princess Kaguya out with the ginzuishou, she probably started to take control of things from there. But I'm just theorizing with that, so don't mind it.

I can see the logic in that argument, but from what we've seen of the past Senshi, none of them really had any issues with their roles (aside from Saturn, possibly, but I don't think she ever gives her opinions on Serenity's decisions in the manga or the anime). I agree that it's generally a bad idea to use people as tools, but if the wishes of those people coincide with their assigned roles, is it really such a bad thing?

Which is why I also mentioned:

Crescent Pulsar wrote:I don't know if I should feel worse if they were all raised to live to be nothing but what they became.

Because, then, they wouldn't know any better. I mean, if that's all that they know, why would they be disagreeable. In which case...

The modern Senshi, at the very least, have chosen by their own wills to follow Usagi. While I can't recall whether the others ever had this choice presented to them, Ami had the option of leaving the team and pursuing her dreams of becoming a doctor early in the second season and decided she would rather stay with the Senshi. The others all had lives of their own as well, and at any given moment they could have thrown in the towel and said "I'm done with this" and Usagi would have let them go because she cares more about her friends than about herself. Seen in that light, Crystal Tokyo and the roles of the Senshi as NQS's bodyguards isn't some destined fate that was plotted out in advance (by Pluto, if you believe the conspiracy theorists), but the end result of the choices the Senshi made throughout the series.

They didn't really have a choice. Remember, it's mostly from the memories of their past selves that drives them to be senshi, that their ultimate fate (among other things) is to support Usagi. I can understand why they would want to be senshi, beyond that: to do good deeds and to protect the ones that they care about, and all that jazz. But, I think the author makes it pretty clear that their past lives end up dominating their priorities, in part because the author works so much with "fate" and "destiny." And, in reality, they really are fated because not everyone is born with a Sailor Crystal. In that sense, perhaps it really is inevitable that they devote their lives to being senshi. So, maybe everything else is moot. Perhaps it doesn't matter how they were once raised, or how they feel about devoting their lives to being senshi.

Either way, it's not my cup of tea. And that's all I wanted to say. At least, if being used as tools turned out to be the case, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who'd find that wrong.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Knight of L-sama » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:07 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:More importantly, though, is that the outer senshi, for the most part, weren't present. The only one we saw was Pluto, who didn't seem to have a life outside of her duty. One can only assume that the outer senshi returned to their prior duty, as well. (Even though their absence was probably due to the author not having a reason to think that far ahead, yet; or something like that.)


I actually have my own personal hypothesis regarding that, though it's pretty much all predicated on a single scene from the R anime. Specifically one where Chibi-Usa crawls into Usagi's bed and then (and this is the important part) wakes Usagi up by talking in her sleep. Assuming Neo-Queen Serenity remembers this incident or knows about Chibi-Usa's sleep talking from other incidents she could simply have asked the Outer Senshi to make themselves scarce for a few years so Chibi-Usa doesn't accidentally reveal their existence prematurely.
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:37 pm

I think that's fine. With limited information, there's nothing wrong with filling in the gaps with anything that can't be disproved. For all we know, maybe that's the reason for their absence. Even if it's from the anime. :P (Just obligatory anime-bashing, in jest. Don't mind it.)
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Re: What do you think about the senshi's mission?

Postby camk4evr » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:18 am

Crescent Pulsar wrote:They were already in their senshi outfits and protective of Usagi when she was a baby. It's more likely that Queen Serenity hard-wired it into their brains what they were supposed to live for, and I think it's possible since those with Sailor Crystals are destined to protect what they represent, not a specific person.


Queen Serenity wouldn't have had to as that is what the Inner Senshi were, literally, born to do. The whole reason that there are so damn many senshi in the Solar system (12 not including Sailor Moon, Sailor Chibi-moon, Endymion/Tuxedo Mask, and, most especially not, the Sailor Starlights), and the reason that Queen Serenity and Nephalenia came to Earth is because it was where the being with the most powerful sailor crystal was to be born (guess who that was^_^). If they were hard-wired to protect Sailor Moon/Princess Serenity/Usagi it would have been by the Galaxy Cauldron itself.
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