Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Discuss the Sailor Moon series in this forum.

Is Usagi really the senshi of the moon?

Poll ended at Sun May 17, 2009 12:56 pm

Yes, of course. She is the one called Sailor Moon! :O
4
9%
Yes, of course. She is the one called Sailor Moon! :O
4
9%
She isn't Sailor Moon. Curse her for such trickery!
5
11%
She isn't Sailor Moon. Curse her for such trickery!
5
11%
Cop out: Whether she is or not, she still represents Earth's moon, so... technically she is still Sailor Moon, in function.
13
30%
Cop out: Whether she is or not, she still represents Earth's moon, so... technically she is still Sailor Moon, in function.
13
30%
 
Total votes : 44

Postby al103 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:38 am

Crescent Pulsar wrote:And Usagi lost most (if not all of) her powers as a senshi when she became queen. (If I remember correctly.)


When she became queen or when Chibi-Usa was born? Without info i'll bet on second... and it's logical on the basis that powers were transfered to her.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:31 am

I'm pretty sure it was because she had become queen, possibly because of the state of her heart (which is why she banished the Mad Dictator Phantom to Nemesis; in part because he was human, but also because she feared him). I'll come back to this to verify it; as well as the extent of Mamoru's powers to see things around the world. I'm almost done reading Sailor Moon R, so I'm hoping it's mentioned there. ;/

Edit:

Got it. Quoting Neo-Queen Serenity, herself.

Neo-Queen Serenity wrote:Since I became Neo-Queen Serenity, I have lost most of my power as a sailor scout. It was may fault. I couldn't keep the strong heart and the courage to defeat that mad criminal Death Phantom.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:03 am

And I found the part that shows Mamoru's connection with his planet. It's shortly after Queen Metallia is defeated. He places his hand on the ground and says:

Chiba Mamoru wrote:My planet... Has only been scratched a bit. This much... Will soon heal...

And it looks like he uses his power to improve something on the planet, but I can't be too certain since I have a hard time making out Takeuchi's art style. ;/

But there's more. After that, when Usagi realizes that the others are missing, Mamoru elects to find them. While she's holding his hand, she's able to see places on the planet, until she can see, through him, what they had been looking for.

Tsukino Usagi wrote:I can see... Through his touch... Visions of this planet. Endymion, this is your power, isn't it? The power of Earth!
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Postby AshK1980 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:08 pm

Thanks for the Info Crescent. Much appreciated!
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:24 am

Crescent Pulsar wrote: The problem with that, technically-speaking, is that a solar system is much smaller than a cosmos. But, since Chaos has a senshi, as well as a guardian, and Galaxia refers to the galaxy cauldron as the greatest star in the universe, Cosmos could be the senshi of the cauldron. Which correlates with her guardian's ability to return everyone back to their original forms, from the cauldron.

Like i said I heard a theory, and its not as out there as you seem to think.
http://lunaticparty.yuku.com/topic/414/ ... s-X-X.html

Anyway I think Sailor Senshi names are more family names. The planets where named after the gods, and the gods where the sailor senshi, but the planets where named after the sailor senshi long after Beryl's attack was forgotten.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: I honestly don't know what that has to do with anything. O.o;

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough. The abilities Chibi-Chibi/Cosmos displayed are all she would need to dictate Usagi's and the others' fates.

What did Cosmos to show power over the galaxy cauldron?

Crescent Pulsar wrote: There's enough to work with. One, only certain people are meant to use it, and/or can tap into its potential. Two, its power is only limited by the person's heart. Three, it isn't attached to a single person like the other star seeds/sailor crystals, which could suggest that no one was born with it and thus has no "shell" (personality; something by which it could have a body with). Four, it's mentioned, several times, that it's the most powerful thing in the universe. Five, it's the polar opposite of Chaos; the light to its dark. And six, it's the same in any time, but only the one from the present time will work (although I think that's ignored later on ).

In my opinion that is next to nothing.

It being Kaos's equal and opposite could imply it does have a mind of it's own, but chooses to behave differently. Remember we are talking about things that are very alien.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Normally I'd agree, and I do agree about the potential of becoming corrupted. But, if Usagi does become Sailor Cosmos, then I'd have to disagree. And there's nothing shown of her, as Neo-Queen Serenity, that suggests a large ego, or corruption.

We know next to nothing about what Crystal Tokyo is like.

I can't recall Usagi ever questioning if she is really up to the task of being queen, or doing anything to prepare knowing Neo-Queen Serenity messed-up with at least one thing at least.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: I'm not too familiar with the anime. I prefer the manga since it contains the conceiver's original intentions for the universe. But, out of curiosity, what did they do to charge up the Ginzuishou?

There is the battle with Beryl. Usagi was running on empty, and the inners appear in spirit, and help her.

If I recall correctly Ep.88, but I'm not sure.

Then you have the time she stupidly went after Saturn.

Anyway Usagi uses outside power-sources to transform in the anime, and if they become damaged she needs to get a new one, or just be Usagi.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: He can, if I remember correctly. But he can also see what's happening at the present, I believe. I haven't looked it up in the manga yet since I've been focusing on writing fan-fiction. But I know the general area where I can find him doing it, and make sure I remember right.

Shouldn't they have known what the Death busters where doing if that is true?

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Well, when Elysian was cursed, it affected Mamoru, too.

Where is Elysian? In the anime it is a sort of dream world, and seems to be the source of Mamoru's power/roses.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: And my memory's fuzzy on whether Saturn "killed" the moon. Either way it still exists, and despite how other planets are as "dead" as the moon would seem, the senshi that represent them don't seem to have any problems. And there's nothing to suggest that their state affects their power, since Mamoru has the liveliest planet and he's probably the weakest, if not an equal to, the others.

As I recall Uranus, neptune and Pluto where there to see it, and that is why they are so scared of her in the manga.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Not just the manga. ;p I'd think it'd especially be the anime, since the anime is the actual medium with all of the purifications, and it's the typical source most fan-fiction writers seem to draw from.

Someone coming basically out of nowhere, being made ruler of the world does not seem odd to you?
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:21 am

Zwzn wrote:Like i said I heard a theory, and its not as out there as you seem to think.
http://lunaticparty.yuku.com/topic/414/ ... s-X-X.html

Anyway I think Sailor Senshi names are more family names. The planets where named after the gods, and the gods where the sailor senshi, but the planets where named after the sailor senshi long after Beryl's attack was forgotten.

Oh, that theory's out there, alright. For one, it's basing most of its theory on color correlations, and from whatever concept of Cosmos was used in the anime (which is hardly the Cosmos that Takeuchi conceived).

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough. The abilities Chibi-Chibi/Cosmos displayed are all she would need to dictate Usagi's and the others' fates.

What did Cosmos to show power over the galaxy cauldron?

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Which correlates with her guardian's ability to return everyone back to their original forms, from the cauldron.

Remember? ;/

In my opinion that is next to nothing.

I feel sorry that you can't accept it.

It being Kaos's equal and opposite could imply it does have a mind of it's own, but chooses to behave differently. Remember we are talking about things that are very alien.

That doesn't imply anything of that sort. O.o; And we're not talking about alien things because we're talking about the fundamentals of existence in the Sailor Moon universe.

We know next to nothing about what Crystal Tokyo is like.

Speak for yourself, please. There is also plenty to be known about Crystal Tokyo. It was a peaceful place, throughout most of its history, and its population (and almost all of the world's) lived long lives, for up to a thousand years of age. It's suggested in the manga that this longevity is what people wanted, which eventually brought about peace. There was no purification, and/or brainwashing. That suggests enough to know enough about Crystal Tokyo.

I can't recall Usagi ever questioning if she is really up to the task of being queen, or doing anything to prepare knowing Neo-Queen Serenity messed-up with at least one thing at least.

That doesn't mean she has an ego problem. -_- Anyone who knows Usagi well enough would know that her priorities often rest with doing things for others, not to become queen. A selfless person like that, who is willing to take such a burden, does not have a big ego. ;/

Anyway Usagi uses outside power-sources to transform in the anime, and if they become damaged she needs to get a new one, or just be Usagi.

This happens in the manga, as well. But whether they draw from outside power sources, or awaken their own inherent power, is not fully understood. It's true that, with new pens and brooches, the senshi have access to more power; but from either source would render the use of them as idiotic plot devices, since it'd make more sense to have access to all of their potential power. (But I guess that would be boring, and make it easier to defeat the first few enemies. ;/)

Shouldn't they have known what the Death busters where doing if that is true?

Um... Aside from the fact that I already illustrated it as being true? Don't ask me why Takeuchi didn't have Mamoru use his abilities for such a thing. It probably falls under the same problem that other authors face when they introduce something too useful, that would greatly alter the plot in a less interesting way from what they had planned.

Where is Elysian? In the anime it is a sort of dream world, and seems to be the source of Mamoru's power/roses.

In the manga it's a land within the Earth, where his Golden Kingdom had been during the Silver Millennium.

As I recall Uranus, neptune and Pluto where there to see it, and that is why they are so scared of her in the manga.

I don't recall them being scared of her.

Either way, Saturn didn't really destroy much of anything, since both the moon and Earth are still intact. Plus, humans survived on Earth and repopulated the planet. What is said is that she destroyed the Silver Millennium, which is more of a concept than a tangible thing. And it's a fact that enough of the moon kingdom survived for the main and sub computers to remain working, until both ran out of power. It seems more like Saturn was more of a means of closing a chapter so a new one could begin, which is what is suggested in her "death and rebirth" motto, rather than to simply destroy everything and be done with it.

Someone coming basically out of nowhere, being made ruler of the world does not seem odd to you?

She didn't come from out of nowhere. People have been aware of Sailor Moon, and prior to that Sailor V, many years before she was crowned queen at the age of twenty-two. So, with a record of saving people (and the world), there's an interim of about four years before she becomes queen. So there's a reasonable amount of time for things to progress in such a way that would put her into a position to become queen.
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Zwzn » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:37 am

I think people are mixing up the words Cosmos and universe. They actually hace rather different meanings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Oh, that theory's out there, alright. For one, it's basing most of its theory on color correlations, and from whatever concept of Cosmos was used in the anime (which is hardly the Cosmos that Takeuchi conceived).

There is no Sailor Cosmos in the anime, and Takeuchi did make color drawings of the her Sailor Moon/Sailor V work.

Like I said it is an interesting idea, and don't the Sol Sailors give Usagi power in Act 41?


Crescent Pulsar wrote: Which correlates with her guardian's ability to return everyone back to their original forms, from the cauldron.

And this shows power over the cauldron how? This looks like a reset button was pressed, and that is something we see again and again. All it proves is Sailor Moon can undo what sailor chaos does.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: That doesn't imply anything of that sort. O.o; And we're not talking about alien things because we're talking about the fundamentals of existence in the Sailor Moon universe.

Order and Chaos taken to extremes are very alien because we only know them when in balance basically.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: I feel sorry that you can't accept it.

I accept that is about all we know about the Silver Crystal, and consider that to be very little information.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: That doesn't imply anything of that sort. O.o; And we're not talking about alien things because we're talking about the fundamentals of existence in the Sailor Moon universe.

Chaos is basically a conceptual being. To be Chaos's equal the silver crystal must also basically be a conceptual being.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Speak for yourself, please. There is also plenty to be known about Crystal Tokyo. It was a peaceful place, throughout most of its history, and its population (and almost all of the world's) lived long lives, for up to a thousand years of age. It's suggested in the manga that this longevity is what people wanted, which eventually brought about peace. There was no purification, and/or brainwashing. That suggests enough to know enough about Crystal Tokyo.

And what sources do we have for information on Crystal Tokyo? Every source i can think of is not very good.

To create Crystal Tokyo Usagi seems to have removed disruptive force(Chaos?). Long lives will not bring peace on it's own.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: That doesn't mean she has an ego problem. -_- Anyone who knows Usagi well enough would know that her priorities often rest with doing things for others, not to become queen. A selfless person like that, who is willing to take such a burden, does not have a big ego. ;/

She either has not given what beng Queen really means much thought, or she thinks she can do the job with no problem. IF Usagi thinks she can do the job, and seemingly is not worried she has a huge ego. YOu don't have to be selfish to think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: This happens in the manga, as well. But whether they draw from outside power sources, or awaken their own inherent power, is not fully understood. It's true that, with new pens and brooches, the senshi have access to more power; but from either source would render the use of them as idiotic plot devices, since it'd make more sense to have access to all of their potential power. (But I guess that would be boring, and make it easier to defeat the first few enemies. ;/)

What ever the Sailor Senshi's power-sources are they seem to need new gear to get new attacks, and at least use most of their powers.

Moon is the only Sailor Senshi in the anime at least who needs to be boosted every time she goes super.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Um... Aside from the fact that I already illustrated it as being true? Don't ask me why Takeuchi didn't have Mamoru use his abilities for such a thing. It probably falls under the same problem that other authors face when they introduce something too useful, that would greatly alter the plot in a less interesting way from what they had planned.

Mamoru was suppose to be Usagi's equal or near equal. He should have been over powered.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: In the manga it's a land within the Earth, where his Golden Kingdom had been during the Silver Millennium.

I think the anime version makes more sense. How could the people not know it is there.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: She didn't come from out of nowhere. People have been aware of Sailor Moon, and prior to that Sailor V, many years before she was crowned queen at the age of twenty-two. So, with a record of saving people (and the world), there's an interim of about four years before she becomes queen. So there's a reasonable amount of time for things to progress in such a way that would put her into a position to become queen.

What does that have to do with running a government? The series ends with Usagi being 16 or 17. That means Usagi goes from Super-hero to queen of the Sol system at about age 20 to 21, and seems to have not run anything before hand. People generally work their way up the ladder. What kind of stupid people is going to make someone the leader just because they are famous.
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:12 am

Sheesh... This is like arguing with a brick wall. That said, this is the last time I'm going to bother getting the message across. -_-

Zwzn wrote:I think people are mixing up the words Cosmos and universe. They actually hace rather different meanings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos

Um... You did read that article, didn't you? You know, the part where it says, "Today the word is generally used as a synonym of the word 'Universe?'" Plus, there's nothing that suggests it was meant to illustrate a solar system, but a orderly/harmonious system. In particular, back in ancient times, it represented what we knew to be everything in existence (even though that put the Earth at the center of everything) and, accordingly, what we now know as everything is the universe. And thus why cosmos is synonymous with universe.

There is no Sailor Cosmos in the anime, and Takeuchi did make color drawings of the her Sailor Moon/Sailor V work.

Well, there's the problem with your argument: there is no Cosmos to begin with. So... What use is a theory on what Cosmos is? ;/

And Takeuchi using colors still doesn't mean anything. Yes, each senshi got their own color. But guess what? There are more senshi out there, and thus many colors and combinations of them. Having a bunch of colors on one's uniform doesn't mean there's a connection to only a few senshi, especially given the nature of cosmos explained above.

But I'll humor the idea. Let's say that cosmos is the senshi of the solar system. On her skirt is a clear representation of every important color that would define her. So, here's the question: are there enough colors to reflect Mercury, Venus, Earth, the Moon, Mars, the four asteroid senshi (as one color for the group or four colors to represent them), Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto? That's eleven colors, at the least, and fourteen at the most. (And that's beside the fact that a few colors on her skirt can't be matched to any of the senshi.)

Like I said it is an interesting idea, and don't the Sol Sailors give Usagi power in Act 41?

Giving power just means that: giving power. It didn't make her senshi of the other planets for a day, did it?


Crescent Pulsar wrote: Which correlates with her guardian's ability to return everyone back to their original forms, from the cauldron.

And this shows power over the cauldron how? This looks like a reset button was pressed, and that is something we see again and again. All it proves is Sailor Moon can undo what sailor chaos does.

For crying out loud...

For one, it wasn't Sailor Moon. It was Cosmos' guardian. Big difference. Two, read this quote:

Guardian Cosmos wrote:Long ago, a shining star came here. She was carrying a small star's shell. That star had a shine similar to yours, Sailor Moon.

She was referring to Usagi's mother and her unborn daughter, millions of years ago, when they first arrived. Guardian Cosmos has been around a long time, and has the power to decide what happens to star seeds in the galaxy cauldron. And, being Cosmos' guardian, she's directly linked to Sailor Cosmos and her power. However, since guardian Cosmos predates even the first Serenity, that means that Usagi would have to conform to Cosmos, not Cosmos conform to her solar system. And thus why Cosmos is the senshi of the galaxy cauldron; especially since it actually represents what a cosmos is.

Order and Chaos taken to extremes are very alien because we only know them when in balance basically.

*Slaps hand over face*

They're not alien. When in their extreme form they're very definitive, recognizable. You're getting it all confused with the idea that the two should be in balance, and thus rationalize that the further away from that means that they are more and more alien. But in doing so all that does is negate their existence completely, since you can't call something order or chaos if they each share the same amount of the other. They can only be called chaos and order because each is completely representative of their natures. So there is no extreme, and especially nothing to suggest that they're alien.

I accept that is about all we know about the Silver Crystal, and consider that to be very little information.

So... What? You won't be satisfied without it completely illustrated in an encyclopedia? There is enough information already; all that needs to be known. Understanding the foundation is all that's required to build upon it.

Chaos is basically a conceptual being. To be Chaos's equal the silver crystal must also basically be a conceptual being.

<_<;

You do know that you just argued against yourself, right? If they're conceptual beings, then it requires other minds to conceive them, and in that sense, even if given existence in reality, they have no will of their own since their nature is dictated by the thoughts of others.

Chaos and Cosmos (the disorderly versus the orderly) are either forces, conditions, or both. It's as simple as that. There's nothing to suggest that either side should have a persona.

And what sources do we have for information on Crystal Tokyo? Every source i can think of is not very good.

Uh... The manga, perhaps? And what better source is there? O.o;

To create Crystal Tokyo Usagi seems to have removed disruptive force(Chaos?). Long lives will not bring peace on it's own.

I didn't say that it would. But with longer, healthier lives, people would have more time, and have improving living conditions. It's a good enough start to inspire peace.

She either has not given what beng Queen really means much thought, or she thinks she can do the job with no problem. IF Usagi thinks she can do the job, and seemingly is not worried she has a huge ego. YOu don't have to be selfish to think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

*Sighs*

I'm beginning to see that you don't really understand what you're talking about. She doesn't consider herself more important than others; she is not conceited. Thus, no problem with the size of her ego.

And, again, anyone that knows Usagi would know that she doesn't do what she does because she thinks she's all that. She simply has the means to do it, and feels that she should try. And not for the sake of herself, or to set herself apart from everyone else. She does it for others, for friendship, for love, for peace. Tell me which one of these reasons gives her a big ego?

Mamoru was suppose to be Usagi's equal or near equal. He should have been over powered.

Well, he wasn't. You'd have to take that up with Takeuchi. But the simple answer probably lies in the fact that it's a comic for girls, and all of the senshi were girls. Mamoru is thus left with a supplementary role, especially since it makes little sense for every other known senshi to be a girl and yet Earth is the only exception.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: In the manga it's a land within the Earth, where his Golden Kingdom had been during the Silver Millennium.

I think the anime version makes more sense. How could the people not know it is there.

Well, there's obviously no use trying to make you think otherwise, huh?

And I don't really understand what you're asking. But, if I had to guess, people would have a better chance of being aware of Elysium in the anime. So, basically, if I understood what you were asking, you're arguing that the manga makes more sense, since there's next to no chance of people coming to be aware of it by chance.

Otherwise, try to phrase your question better. ^^;

What does that have to do with running a government? The series ends with Usagi being 16 or 17. That means Usagi goes from Super-hero to queen of the Sol system at about age 20 to 21, and seems to have not run anything before hand. People generally work their way up the ladder. What kind of stupid people is going to make someone the leader just because they are famous.

You're failing to understand the dynamics of the universe. It's obvious that she doesn't become queen by conventional means. At the age of twenty-two. Plus, it's not because she's famous. Famous people get knighted in England; that's about it. ;/ Then again, it depends on what they're famous for. Saving many lives many times over? Saving the planet? Having a history of working for the interest of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Gee, those can't be good qualifications at all! No one would want to institute that kind of person as their ruler for those kind of things!

And now I bow out, because arguing this any further would just be ridiculous, since it's obviously not going to go anywhere.
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby FOG3 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:27 pm

Zwzn wrote:There is the battle with Beryl. Usagi was running on empty, and the inners appear in spirit, and help her.
In anime Beryl/Metaria and Princess Serenity are basically equally matched in a beam tug of war, the spirits of the Inners appear and put their arms on Usagi arms and Usagi basically blows Metaria away. Out of power wasn't the issue, dominating the beam tug of war was.

The manga analogue involves them suiciding as well, but by destroying their transformation devices.

Zwzn wrote:As I recall Uranus, neptune and Pluto where there to see it, and that is why they are so scared of her in the manga.
In manga this where the nasty multiple timeline issue comes into play. On the main line Saturn took out everybody in that follow up, including the other Outers which is a large part of why they're freaked out by her. She literally showed up out of nowhere and took them out as purely collatoral damage.

This however didn't happen with the CT line Chibi-Usa is from, and multiple lines is further justified by in manga there being a ripple effect from the CT line to the Main line.

Crescent wrote:That doesn't mean she has an ego problem. -_- Anyone who knows Usagi well enough would know that her priorities often rest with doing things for others, not to become queen. A selfless person like that, who is willing to take such a burden, does not have a big ego. ;/
That's really no more valid then the other for describing a person who describes herself in anime repeatedly as "spineless." Manga doesn't develop the character, but in anime she is quite vain and egotistical although not out of the bounds of what is typical for her age, gender, etc. group.

Selfless, disciplined, and sacrificing are not words that even vaguely describe either character. The intent was to create a ditz that the reader could relate to and in anime laugh at, not a saint despite the occassional shoehorn attempts at that.

I really don't want to have a discussion on the differences between your average civie and the guy that'll actually jump on the grenade or otherwise, so let's please just leave it at that.

Crescent wrote:It seems more like Saturn was more of a means of closing a chapter so a new one could begin, which is what is suggested in her "death and rebirth" motto, rather than to simply destroy everything and be done with it.
Death & rebirth? I'm pretty sure it was just death. When she kills every last human on the planet as collatoral damage in manga, it's Usagi that has to undo it. Which automatically brings up problems whenever other serious depopulations happen, like that related to the Dark Moon's assault when people insist rationalizing it with reality.

Zwzn wrote:Order and Chaos taken to extremes are very alien because we only know them when in balance basically.
Order and Chaos refer to the complexity of the governing order of a system. A orderly system is easily mathematically defined like newtonian mechanics, and a chaotic one like the quantum mechanics is not. Both have inherent order, as per the unofficial fundamental postulate of science.

At the end of the day it's just a veiled author us verse them statement as it's used in practice. There are those who create and those that harass the creators from their perspective trying to tear things down. I don't know who vested it as Order and Chaos. It could have been moderates probably reacting to the excesses of their more extreme compatriots possibly with an emphasis on issues related to issues with writing structure inherent to that error. It could be simply they were literate enough to know Kaos~nothingness and went from there. Or maybe they just heard enough about entropy to grasp the basic concept and thought it was cool enough to go off on a tangent with it.

Zwzn wrote:Chaos is basically a conceptual being. To be Chaos's equal the silver crystal must also basically be a conceptual being.
Except the Chaos in series doesn't follow that form. The Chaos we're shown is cast in the destroyer out to retrieve the good guy's power mold with minimal to nonexistant fleshing out.

Zwzn wrote:Mamoru was suppose to be Usagi's equal or near equal. He should have been over powered.
It a shoujo series, the audience is female. You sell the product your target audience wants to buy, and try to maximize your profit margin. It's just basic business practice.

You want shonen, you can buy shonen. No one is going to stop you.

Zwzn wrote:What does that have to do with running a government? The series ends with Usagi being 16 or 17. That means Usagi goes from Super-hero to queen of the Sol system at about age 20 to 21, and seems to have not run anything before hand. People generally work their way up the ladder. What kind of stupid people is going to make someone the leader just because they are famous.
At the end of the day it's shoujo and the every girl is a little princess who lives happily ever after schtick wouldn't be used if it didn't sell. That's the real why, but you are right. Yes, heaven forbid I'm actually agreeing with you. From any kind of realistic perspective it's absurd.

Crescent wrote:You're failing to understand the dynamics of the universe. It's obvious that she doesn't become queen by conventional means. At the age of twenty-two. Plus, it's not because she's famous. Famous people get knighted in England; that's about it. ;/ Then again, it depends on what they're famous for. Saving many lives many times over? Saving the planet? Having a history of working for the interest of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Gee, those can't be good qualifications at all! No one would want to institute that kind of person as their ruler for those kind of things!
Cults of personality make poor governments, and are prety much not happening on that scale that thoroughly. Nobody pulls off fooling everybody all the time. We can start the list of evil and nastiness resulting from cults of personality if you insist, or we can just acknowledge it's shoujo and there's a standard story form being used that was never intended to stand up to scrutiny.

Seems as how your focus is manga the proper list of quals actually would be more along the lines of: murder, mayhem, genocide, and vigilantism with no concern for the populace. If it was anime at least it'd mostly be criminal negligence endangering the human species on multiple occassions. Without absolute writer situation control she is about the last person you want with the power she has.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:34 pm

I was tempted to just ignore this, and I probably would have been wiser if I had done so. But, HeyZeus on a stick... *Cracks knuckles*

That's really no more valid then the other for describing a person who describes herself in anime repeatedly as "spineless." Manga doesn't develop the character, but in anime she is quite vain and egotistical although not out of the bounds of what is typical for her age, gender, etc. group.

Selfless, disciplined, and sacrificing are not words that even vaguely describe either character. The intent was to create a ditz that the reader could relate to and in anime laugh at, not a saint despite the occassional shoehorn attempts at that.

I really don't want to have a discussion on the differences between your average civie and the guy that'll actually jump on the grenade or otherwise, so let's please just leave it at that.

Sorry, but I must contest it. If you didn't want a discussion, you shouldn't've said anything. ;/

Anyway, the Usagi in the manga does develop, and that's a fact. If she didn't, she wouldn't have stopped wailing like a banshee in battle. And she had to go from being a care-free teenage girl to frequently having to think about, and deal with, serious and mature matters.

The problem here, I think, is a failure to see all but the most typical, fannon and anime-centric aspects of the character. Usagi is a lot more complex than most give her credit for, in the manga as well as the anime. But, for the life of me, I don't know how anyone could not see her having the capacity to be selfless and disciplined. (I didn't include sacrifice since selfless makes it redundant.) Just because she lives two lives, and displays such traits more often on one side than on the other, does not mean that they are irrelevant. One can't rule such qualities out just because she wants to be, and acts like, a normal, teenage girl. After all, her mother had wanted her to be reborn so she could live such a life. But time and again she has to put it aside to save people, and later give it up to become queen. There are no shoehorn attempts at being a saint: she does what she feels needs to be done when it needs to be done. She could have ignored things and only cared about herself, but she didn't. It's simply crazy to think that she doesn't love anyone beyond herself despite all of the evidence against it in both the anime and the manga; she's not referred to so frequently as the senshi of love and justice for nothing. It's because it's true. The very nature required to use the ginzuishou proves it absolutely. It's as simple as that.

Death & rebirth? I'm pretty sure it was just death. When she kills every last human on the planet as collatoral damage in manga, it's Usagi that has to undo it. Which automatically brings up problems whenever other serious depopulations happen, like that related to the Dark Moon's assault when people insist rationalizing it with reality.

It is just death. You need death for rebirth. I never said anything about her being the one that causes rebirth; I only said, to the effect, that it was a necessary step for it.

The fact is that she doesn't destroy or depopulate whole worlds. If that were true, then Sailor Moon and her mother (in the past) would have died and there wouldn't have been any rebirth. In fact, Saturn clearly intends to focus her power on Pharaoh 90, thus sparing Earth from the full effect, and unleashes it all once she's sealed away in the other dimension.

Even in the past, when she dropped her glaive for the first time (that we are shown), there are no planets missing, and enough people survived to repopulate the Earth. All it really is is a very strong attack, since even the moon palace's computers were left operational, despite the surface damage to structures.

In the end, Saturn fulfills her first duty (before it changes later in the series) in tandem with whoever holds the ginzuishou. So, even if she only causes the destructive part, she's still a part of the death and rebirth process.

Cults of personality make poor governments, and are prety much not happening on that scale that thoroughly. Nobody pulls off fooling everybody all the time. We can start the list of evil and nastiness resulting from cults of personality if you insist, or we can just acknowledge it's shoujo and there's a standard story form being used that was never intended to stand up to scrutiny.

I can't say that I really understand what you were trying to say. But I've already expressed that it was probably just something the author could envision happening, since it's her universe. And if that's so, and seeing as she knows her universe best, it must somehow be possible. So, yeah, scrutiny is rather useless, regardless of cynicism and skepticism. Doesn't stop either of us from trying, though, does it? ;p

Other than that, she didn't "fool" everybody. There are two examples of people who disagreed with the state of longevity and tranquility: one being Death Phantom, and the other being those that would become the Black Moon.

So it's not like she established a perfect institution. But the fact remains that it's there and, thus, somehow it managed to become.

Seems as how your focus is manga the proper list of quals actually would be more along the lines of: murder, mayhem, genocide, and vigilantism with no concern for the populace. If it was anime at least it'd mostly be criminal negligence endangering the human species on multiple occassions. Without absolute writer situation control she is about the last person you want with the power she has.

...

I couldn't make heads or tails of that. It doesn't even vaguely suggest that it's the same series that we're talking about. But if you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting...

...

Nope. Not arguing against something crazy like that, which sounds more reminiscent of the third Reich than Sailor Moon. I promised that I would save myself for my one, true love. Alas! Where art thou!?

*I run off in search of it*

(And that's all I'll add to this front. I think I've said all that needs to be said, and I don't feel like repeating myself. Again. And again, and again, and again. I'm becoming tired of it. ~_~Zzzz)
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Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:15 pm

No growth in Usagi? I do not agree.

Think of The Once and Future King, watching Wart grow up to be Arthur. There's really not that much difference in the person, just in the sophistication and abilities of that person.

That being said, I consider the anime (at least) to be 'The Once and Future Queen'. There's the Usagi-equivalent of Wart throughout all five seasons, but Serenity comes more and more into focus as they go by.

The foundation remains the same. The structure built upon it grows higher.

Of course, as Camelot goes on, and gets more complicated, things get tougher and worse for King Arthur. Neo-Queen Serenity might have similar problems. It's not that hard to see parallels between Mordred and Morgause, and the Dark Moon Family. Those blasted archetypes keep popping up all over the place.
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Postby FOG3 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:34 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Sorry, but I must contest it. If you didn't want a discussion, you shouldn't've said anything. ;/
Feh, you don't know what I'm talking about and I will refrain from going into it.

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Anyway, the Usagi in the manga does develop, and that's a fact.
Misinterpretation on your part. Developed in the sense of having enough to work up a full personality profile, is not the same thing as character growth. None of the characters in manga are fully develloped, and as a result to much inference must be made for a full profile. Even if Usagi is largely just this. The objection stands.

Crescent Pulsar wrote:If she didn't, she wouldn't have stopped wailing like a banshee in battle. And she had to go from being a care-free teenage girl to frequently having to think about, and deal with, serious and mature matters.
Really? In manga they shoot first, don't ask questions, and party on pretty much from day 1 till the end. Not exactly what I call dealing with serious or mature matters.

I only bother with anime up through S season. At D-Point she whines and gets her friends killed while they seriously put out and she doesn't put out at all. In S she hands over the grail to an entity she knows perfectly well intends to use it to bring mass doom, based on pathetic acting with no preventative measures to insure she would turn right around do exactly what she did. Again hardly what I call dealing with serious or mature matters. Looks like she's still letting uncertainty dominate at the expense of everyone around her to me, and I'm trying to be nice about it.

With great power comes great responsbility, and spare me the allusions to her ever volunteering for the job. She got drafted, and they always targetted her directly. Volunteering was never in the equation. Nevermind in manga she does surrender to Metaria twice by suiciding over Endymion. I would be more generous about the whole thing if she wasn't endangering everyone around her at just about every opportunity.

I don't know how anyone could not see her having the capacity to be selfless and disciplined.
Capacity? Now you're weasel wording. Capacity for an action a word can be used as a descriptor for is not the same thing as being a prnounced personality trait with usage of the term. You can argue a rich brat using a charity solely for tax purposes to increase their own real cash has the "capacity" to be "selfless." You can argue the most ADD person the planet has the "capacity" to be "disciplined" because capacity is potential and you're alluding to something every human has potential to perform in.

Unless you want to set a real standard, putting the bar that low is inherently a concession of the point on your part, which makes for game, set, match.

It is just death. You need death for rebirth. I never said anything about her being the one that causes rebirth; I only said, to the effect, that it was a necessary step for it.
You're grabbing at straws, and the first statement is in agreement with the assertion therefore you have conceded the point. Thank you.

FYI with Buddhist philosophy of the cycle of rebirth the intent is to get out stucking having to do, do overs which are seen as punishment. Unless you get it right you have to do it over and over again until you do get it right. The author took influence off that mold, so your speculating largely falls flat.

Furthermore in both Saturn showed up after the assault to finish up, so it wasn't ccasually possible for her to have any influence on what the Serenitys did one way or another.

there are no planets missing
Depopulation and planet scattering are not analogous events.

the moon palace's computers were left operational, despite the surface damage to structures.
Which just means they were buried deep, again depopulation does not require shattering a planet into gravel.

Given the lack of real objection on the point I'm going to have to call game, set, match on that as well. You conceed the point, you conceed the point. There's not a need for the excess rationalizing, I think we've established I'm not out to get you or anything of that sort by now.

Other than that, she didn't "fool" everybody.
Now you're just being intentionally dense just to be contrary.

So it's not like she established a perfect institution. But the fact remains that it's there and, thus, somehow it managed to become.
And the less time we fuss over a fair tale formula ending in this context the better.

...

I couldn't make heads or tails of that. It doesn't even vaguely suggest that it's the same series that we're talking about. But if you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting...

...

Nope. Not arguing against something crazy like that, which sounds more reminiscent of the third Reich than Sailor Moon.
They shoot first, don't ask questions, and party later and have such little consideration for collatoral damage, Usagi who shows she's perfectly capable of downing Chaos enetities by herself doesn't even lift a finger in opposition to Saturn basically wiping out the entire populace of Earth for the entertainment value. Objectively it happened, subjectively that's not the intent but neither is anything you alluded to.

(And that's all I'll add to this front. I think I've said all that needs to be said, and I don't feel like repeating myself. Again. And again, and again, and again. I'm becoming tired of it. ~_~Zzzz)
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Postby lwf58 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:25 pm

Fog3, after carefully reading the post, I'm certain that you intended no harm with that last post. But it did offend Crescent Pulsar because of the rudeness of phrasing.

Sentences like "Feh, you don't know what I'm talking about and I will refrain from going into it", "Now you're just being intentionally dense just to be contrary", "Misinterpretation on your part", "You're grabbing at straws", etcetera are all directed comments, and can easily be misinterpreted as insults.
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Re: Is Usagi really, in fact, the senshi of the moon?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:45 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote: Sheesh... This is like arguing with a brick wall. That said, this is the last time I'm going to bother getting the message across. -_-

I agree, and that is why I'm ignoring everything I don't care about.

Zwzn wrote:I think people are mixing up the words Cosmos and universe. They actually hace rather different meanings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos


Crescent Pulsar wrote:... You did read that article, didn't you? You know, the part where it says, "Today the word is generally used as a synonym of the word 'Universe?'" Plus, there's nothing that suggests it was meant to illustrate a solar system, but a orderly/harmonious system. In particular, back in ancient times, it represented what we knew to be everything in existence (even though that put the Earth at the center of everything) and, accordingly, what we now know as everything is the universe. And thus why cosmos is synonymous with universe.

The being called Chaos is a part of the Sailor moon universe. Usagi would have to gain it's backing to truly represent the universe.

Yes, I did read the article. It stated that the word cosmos is used to describe orderly or harmonious systems. The word cosmos means order.

we see in Sailor moon is that the Serenity line is trying to create and maintain orderly and harmonious systems, and they use Chaos's opposite the Silver Crystal to do so. Crystal Tokyo and the Silver Millennium are examples of these orderly and harmonious systems.

We see Chaos in all it's incarnations trying to disrupt orderly and harmonious systems, and seems to focus on those created, and or maintained by users of the Silver Crystal.

We are told Sailor Cosmos's opposite is Sailor Chaos. Sailor Cosmos is in fact Sailor order, orderly arrangement, ornaments...

Chaos may not mean disorder, but the primal emptiness, space, but in this case both or only one meanings may apply.


-------------------------------------------------

As it stands Sailor Cosmos is not shown to do anything Sailor Moon can not do with the Silver Crystal if maybe on a more extreme scale in the manga. It doesn't take Cosmos controlling the cauldron to raise the dead, and reset things after some extremely powerful being does something as if nothing happened.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:50 pm

...

Look, if you're serious about having other people argue against your point, don't do the work for them. -_-

First you say:

The being called Chaos is a part of the Sailor moon universe. Usagi would have to gain it's backing to truly represent the universe.

And then you say one...
Yes, I did read the article. It stated that the word cosmos is used to describe orderly or harmonious systems. The word cosmos means order.

Two...
we see in Sailor moon is that the Serenity line is trying to create and maintain orderly and harmonious systems, and they use Chaos's opposite the Silver Crystal to do so. Crystal Tokyo and the Silver Millennium are examples of these orderly and harmonious systems.

Three...
We see Chaos in all it's incarnations trying to disrupt orderly and harmonious systems, and seems to focus on those created, and or maintained by users of the Silver Crystal.

Four...
We are told Sailor Cosmos's opposite is Sailor Chaos. Sailor Cosmos is in fact Sailor order, orderly arrangement, ornaments...

Nowhere do you support your claim that Chaos is required for someone to be Sailor Cosmos. In fact, you mention just about every reason why they are completely at odds and opposite of the other.

One: If Cosmos is order and harmony, then what part of disorder and disharmony would makes things orderly and harmonious? If you put the two together, you don't get either of them because they balance out. Cosmos is not about a balancing act, but about an absolute.

Thus why Cosmos fights Chaos time and time again to try and get rid of it once and for all. I'll provide a quote from the manga that illustrates this point:

Sailor Cosmos wrote:But once again... It wasn't possible to destroy Chaos completely. I have come from the far future. I ran from the battle with Sailor Chaos... leaving everything behind. All the bloodshed... The long, gruesome battles... Sailor Chaos is so big and powerful. There is no way of winning by conventional means. Even if he is defeated... Even if I obtain peace again. The damage and sacrifice made for it will be too great.


Two: And where in the Silver Millennium and Crystal Tokyo was there disorder and disharmony, outside the times it was imposed and beaten back? None. That's because whatever Chaos represents has nothing to do with what order and harmony represent. The Serenity line tries to maintain something which Chaos is not.

Three: And if Chaos is trying to disrupt orderly and harmonious systems, then how can it be a part of the Cosmos? If it was, then it'd be the same as commiting suicide. But would an orderly and harmonious system self-destruct like that? Absoluetly not. It'd have no reason to exist to die, but rather to exist to live, proven by how the parts in support of order and harmony wish to prevent it from happening rather than allowing it happen without question.

Four: If Chaos and Cosmos are the opposite, then how can they be the same thing? I mean, besides the fact that we have an acting Cosmos without Chaos being a part of it and who, in fact, tries to destroy it, if Chaos was required for there to be a Cosmos, then there would be no Sailor Chaos: because Sailor Cosmos would represent chaos and thus there wouldn't have been Metallia, Death Phantom, Pharoah 90, Nephrenia, or Chaos itself to fight against.

Quoting from the manga, this is what Cosmos is:

One of the four asteroid senshi wrote:Did Sailor Moon sacrifice her life to use the Silver Imperium Crystal's power!?

Sailor Cosmos wrote:No. This power is generated by thousands of Sailor Crystals throughout the galaxy. This is Cosmos Crystals's power to change everything to cosmos energy, the ultimate Lambda power.

Here we see that Cosmos and the ginzuishou are distinct from one another. Which helps to support...
Sailor Cosmos wrote:The Sailor Moon that just saved the galaxy is Sailor Cosmos' true form. Like Eternal Sailor Moon did... When I receive the power to lose and save everything, that is when I truly become Sailor Cosmos.

And this is what Sailor Cosmos is. It isn't until Eternal Sailor Moon reminds Chibi-Chibi that she had already taken the right path that she transformed (perhaps regained) her form as Sailor Cosmos.

And all of this ultimately means that:

The being called Chaos is a part of the Sailor moon universe. Usagi would have to gain it's backing to truly represent the universe.

This isn't the case. And...

we see in Sailor moon is that the Serenity line is trying to create and maintain orderly and harmonious systems, and they use Chaos's opposite the Silver Crystal to do so. Crystal Tokyo and the Silver Millennium are examples of these orderly and harmonious systems.

That this never happened. (That which I bolded, of course.) And also...

Chaos may not mean disorder, but the primal emptiness, space, but in this case both or only one meanings may apply.

This was made irrelevant. Disorder or not, it's not a part of Cosmos. Primal emptiness, space, or not, to become nothing but that, or disorder, would go against the Cosmos' purpose and nature.

And now, finally...

As it stands Sailor Cosmos is not shown to do anything Sailor Moon can not do with the Silver Crystal if maybe on a more extreme scale in the manga. It doesn't take Cosmos controlling the cauldron to raise the dead, and reset things after some extremely powerful being does something as if nothing happened.

How people died before, and what happened in the cauldron, are completely different in nature. Sailor Moon has only restored the body of a star seed, not a star seed itself. In comparison to what Cosmos can do it's a very superficial power. Allow me to illustrate the significance of star seeds and the cauldron:

Galaxia wrote:The holiest place in the universe... Galaxy Cauldron. Strong stars. Losers and Sailor senshi. Everything in the galaxy is born here.

Galaxia continued wrote:Here, everything is made, and everything is lost.

Then she drops all of the Sailor Crystals into the Galaxy Cauldron.

Galaxia again wrote:Hundreds of Sailor Crystals from across the galaxy just melted into nothing.

Eternal Sailor Moon's reaction?

Eternal Sailor Moon wrote:Everybody's Sailor Crystals disappeared? I always believed that... if I could save their Sailor Crystals... everybody would come back to normal.

Eternal Sailor Moon doesn't have the power to create or destroy star seeds; only the cauldron does. Losing a body isn't a true death, because people can be revived so long as their star seeds exist. And Cosmos has control of the cauldron, that can do what Eternal Sailor Moon can not, because of what Cosmos' guardian was able to do. And here's the reason why, for, while everyone's still in the cauldron, Cosmos's guardian asks:

Cosmos' guardian wrote:So you come here to throw your life into the cauldron and start a new star's history? Or do you wish to live here as you are?

Giving Usagi and the others a choice is indicative of her power over what happens in the cauldron. It goes beyond raising the dead, and into the realm of controlling everything's very fate. This is a power that far exceeds Usagi's. Because, as Galaxia mentioned:
Galaxia wrote:This cauldron is the universe's ultimate star!

And if that's true (and everything so far suggests that it is), and Cosmos can dictate what happens to star seeds inside of the cauldron, then Cosmos holds the ultimate power in the universe, which Eternal Sailor Moon and the ginzuishou can't match.

But, in the end, I believe that the argument was:

What did Cosmos to show power over the galaxy cauldron?

And I think I answered that definitively more than once. Hopefully, this time, once and for all.

And, so, this should bring these arguments to an end, seeing as how I don't see how they can be refuted. To try would likely be trolling. ;/

Anyway, while I'm at it, I might as well bring another issue to a close.

FOG3 wrote:I am not Zwzn. I prefer to make my point and be done with it, not engage in endlessly picking at someone else's opinion.

No, you're not Zwzn. But that doesn't mean that you don't make me reiterate myself, because my arguments still stand. And they still do. Allow me to separate fact from opinion, and render your points void, to prove it.

Misinterpretation on your part. Developed in the sense of having enough to work up a full personality profile, is not the same thing as character growth. None of the characters in manga are fully develloped, and as a result to much inference must be made for a full profile. Even if Usagi is largely just this. The objection stands.

I didn't misinterpret anything. Behold:

I wrote:If she didn't, she wouldn't have stopped wailing like a banshee in battle.

She's too afraid of fighting enemies. That's a pre-existing part of her profile. When she is no longer afraid that's not an addition to her personality, but a change. Also known as a growth.

She didn't like being Sailor Moon at first, either. But that eventually changes, as well. Growth.

At first she acted jealous and immature about how Mamoru cared about Chibi-Usa, taking it to mean that Chibi-Usa was more important to him, and thought she was a threat to their relationship because Chibi-Usa loved him, despite being a child. But she later realizes her mistake and changes her attitude about it. Growth.

And even by the end of the series:

Eternal Sailor Moon wrote:I can't fight anymore. Everybody is gone. I wasn't always fighting for peace and justice. I was fighting for my friends and loved ones.

Growth. I think I proved my point that there is growth in the manga.

And the characters have full personality profiles. We know everything that we need to know about them, from the beginning to the end of the series, as well as from the side stories. To not see that is either a failure of the reader or purposeful negligence. We are given every relevant trait of the main characters. Just because we aren't shown every conceivable action and reaction to all circumstance doesn't mean that they don't have a complete profile. Everything to suggest what they would do is there for us to put together; it's not a mystery. It just takes a little effort to consider.

So, the objection falls. Mostly because inference is made by the information provided. If there's enough information to draw from, it's possible to conclude what more someone might want to know. And I think there's more than enough information to do that.

In manga they shoot first, don't ask questions

Um... They don't need to ask questions when the intent is clear, when the danger and threat to them or anyone else is evident beyond a doubt. And that's the case just about every time.

And when they encountered the outer senshi, and then the starlights, when they were mysteries and possible enemies, they only confronted them, got defensive, and asked questions. They didn't attack first.

and party on pretty much from day 1 till the end

No, they don't. They simply live their lives when there is no threat, or when they don't know what to do about the current situation and decide that thinking about it any further would get them nowhere. To be more specific, whenever there's an opportunity to do it, they take the time to investigate and prepare themselves for a fight. They did it more than once at Infinity college, and more than once at the Dead Moon's circus. Those don't seem like parties, to me. And I certainly don't consider the final story arc to be anywhere near a party, as all of the senshi, her friends, and her lover, die one by one.

To say otherwise, I think, is what's really called a misconception.

I only bother with anime up through S season. At D-Point she whines and gets her friends killed while they seriously put out and she doesn't put out at all. In S she hands over the grail to an entity she knows perfectly well intends to use it to bring mass doom, based on pathetic acting with no preventative measures to insure she would turn right around do exactly what she did. Again hardly what I call dealing with serious or mature matters. Looks like she's still letting uncertainty dominate at the expense of everyone around her to me, and I'm trying to be nice about it.

The problem here is that you're arguing about her judgement. She's still thinking about, and dealing with, serious and mature matters. Just because she makes bad decisions doesn't make that fact irrelevant. But if you want to argue against her judgement, it improves, and she goes from killing herself uselessly to sacrificing herself to try and save everyone else. In the manga, she experiences this growth by the time she faces Pharaoh 90. She becomes very reliable up until the last story arc, where she is unable to prevent Galaxia from taking everyone's Sailor Crystals. However, it always works out in the end, so she must be doing something right regardless.

With great power comes great responsbility, and spare me the allusions to her ever volunteering for the job. She got drafted, and they always targetted her directly. Volunteering was never in the equation. Nevermind in manga she does surrender to Metaria twice by suiciding over Endymion. I would be more generous about the whole thing if she wasn't endangering everyone around her at just about every opportunity.

There are no allusions. She does volunteer. Her mother wanted her to live a normal life. She didn't intend for her to be a soldier of peace and justice. Usagi isn't drafted because of her own sense of responsibility. It's true that she is often (not always) the target of enemies, and Luna did coerce her (although she wasn't aware that she was the princess, or of her mother's wishes), but she could have ignored her and walked away from it. But does she have the heart to allow her friend, Naru, to be killed? Of course not. And from then onward she realizes that she has the power to do right, and to vanquish things that normal people can not. If she had only cared about herself, and had not been concerned about the lives of others, then she could have ignored it. Or, if she had been too scared to face the dangers, she would have hidden away from it, and, either way, end up being killed trying to do so. She was simply faced with the facts of the circumstances and she couldn't ignore or hide from them, and because of that she grew to become more resilient and dedicated to do what was in her power to do.

Just because many of the circumstances around her are beyond her control, and she and those around her are targeted so often, that doesn't mean that making decisions based on her principles, and responding to threats, are drafts. In fact, she doesn't volunteer to protect the planet full-time until the very end of the series, which sets her up to becoming Neo-Queen Serenity. And that's evidenced by:

Usagi, in response to Cosmos' guardian's questions wrote:We would like to be what we are and live together. We would like to make our future the way we are. No matter how tough, I want to live this life!

No matter how tough. She could have abandoned her current existence, but she elected not to. She wasn't drafted, but rather decided to continue life as it was, knowing very well what that meant. That's just the sort of person that she is.

But, in the end, I'm sure it can be argued that it's a matter of semantics. So I'll just state my disagreement on this matter as an opinion, and leave it at that, since I doubt we would be able to reconcile our differences on the matter.

Oh, and it's kind of pointless to make her out as a danger to everyone when life itself is a series of dangers. That, and the fact that people would be endangered by the same forces whether she lived or not, or had the ginzuishou or not. The ultimate goal of every enemy would have put everyone in danger regardless. Personally, I don't think she's much of a danger to anyone other than those on the wrong side of the playing field. Even if I were a casualty, at least I'd be comforted by the fact that she will bring me back to life, instead of dead for good like the baddies.

Unless you want to set a real standard, putting the bar that low is inherently a concession of the point on your part, which makes for game, set, match.

A poor choice of wording, on my part, I admit. But it's not game, set and match because my argument still stands. As illustrated by these quotes, of what I've already said:

I wrote:It's simply crazy to think that she doesn't love anyone beyond herself despite all of the evidence against it in both the anime and the manga; she's not referred to so frequently as the senshi of love and justice for nothing. It's because it's true. The very nature required to use the ginzuishou proves it absolutely. It's as simple as that.

Neo-Queen Serenity wrote:Since I became Neo-Queen Serenity, I have lost most of my power as a sailor scout. It was may fault. I couldn't keep the strong heart and the courage to defeat that mad criminal Death Phantom.

And I'll now add:

Queen Serenity wrote:Princess Serenity... Remember this... The Silver Imperium Crystal follows your heart. You must have strong faith, unity, and deep love.

As evidenced by these, as well as other things that I've mentioned in this post, there is no doubt that she is selfless and disciplined. Her deep love allows her to be selfless, and she does so much for everyone that lives to ensure that they have a future. She risks her life to defeat evil, and several times sacrifices it for the sake of others. And it takes discipline to use the ginzuishou, and to never give up the fight. She has displayed all of this, and more. It is a large part of her character that can not be denied, and there shouldn't be a reason to overlook it. It should be that obvious.

You're grabbing at straws, and the first statement is in agreement with the assertion therefore you have conceded the point. Thank you.

No need for thanks. You're making me blush. ;/ But, alas, that wasn't what my statement asserted. The reason for that is because...

I wrote:It seems more like Saturn was more of a means of closing a chapter so a new one could begin, which is what is suggested in her "death and rebirth" motto, rather than to simply destroy everything and be done with it.

I wrote:It is just death. You need death for rebirth. I never said anything about her being the one that causes rebirth; I only said, to the effect, that it was a necessary step for it.

What you failed to see was that I was elaborating what I had already said. I never said that she opened a new chapter (rebirth), I only suggested that she closed one to allow the next one to open. As illustrated by this quote:

Sailor Saturn wrote:Do not be distraught. Always with the end comes hope and rebirth. You are the one who brings that, Sailor Moon.

And few panels later...
Sailor Saturn wrote:I am the scout who brings the death and destruction necessary for rebirth.

I was arguing that her role with delivering destruction was more complex than simply destroying everything. She and a Serenity play a dual role in accomplishing death and rebirth. (Do note that her attack for accomplishing that is called "Death Reborn Revolution." If she had no connection to rebirth at all, it would have just been called "Death Revolution.")

FYI with Buddhist philosophy of the cycle of rebirth the intent is to get out stucking having to do, do overs which are seen as punishment. Unless you get it right you have to do it over and over again until you do get it right. The author took influence off that mold, so your speculating largely falls flat.

My speculation about how things work in the universe itself is fairing well. What you're arguing here was never an issue.

Furthermore in both Saturn showed up after the assault to finish up, so it wasn't ccasually possible for her to have any influence on what the Serenitys did one way or another.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. But the fact is that Saturn has the power to destroy a planet, and yet there are no planets missing, and people still exist. The first Serenity had enough time after the attack and destruction of the Moon Kingdom to put Luna and Artemis into cryogenic sleep and upload herself into the Moon Palace's computer. Plus, the outer senshi hadn't been killed, so she would have had to have waited for them to die before she could send them off for rebirth, too. Which suggests that she was still alive after Saturn dropped her silence glaive. And what happens after the destruction? Rebirth. And whose job is that? Serenity's. And, seeing as all of the planets and humanity are accounted for, that's what must have happened. So Saturn does have an influence on what a Serenity does, up until the next-to-last arc, where her purpose changes. Until then, her destruction still isn't indiscriminate. And this proves it, when she is about to unleash her destructive power primarily upon Pharoah 90 instead of on everything and everyone:

This land is destined to become the Silver Millennium.

The ties that bind, as they say.

Depopulation and planet scattering are not analogous events.

I covered this above.

Which just means they were buried deep, again depopulation does not require shattering a planet into gravel.

Given the lack of real objection on the point I'm going to have to call game, set, match on that as well. You conceed the point, you conceed the point. There's not a need for the excess rationalizing, I think we've established I'm not out to get you or anything of that sort by now.

And I covered this above, as well. Besides, it's unfair to be both the opponent and the referee. ;/

Now you're just being intentionally dense just to be contrary.

I was stating a fact. Facts hold weight, not me theirs, so I'm no more dense than I ever was. There's no proof that she fooled anyone in becoming queen, for one. And those few who disagreed with her thought that they were being fooled by her notions of peace and longevity, and thus acted accordingly in opposition. And thus "fool" is appropriate.

And the less time we fuss over a fair tale formula ending in this context the better.

I'm not fussing. I'm just stating an observational fact, nothing more.

They shoot first, don't ask questions, and party later and have such little consideration for collatoral damage, Usagi who shows she's perfectly capable of downing Chaos enetities by herself doesn't even lift a finger in opposition to Saturn basically wiping out the entire populace of Earth for the entertainment value. Objectively it happened, subjectively that's not the intent but neither is anything you alluded to.

Aside from the parts already proven to be untrue, what can she hope to do to prevent collateral damage? I think she has enough consideration, or else she wouldn't fix the damage and death afterward. She can only do so much during a battle, and it's usually the enemy that causes the damages (and especially the deaths). And it's crazy to suggest that she would enjoy watching Saturn destroy everything. She wasn't exactly in a position to do anything at the time, and Saturn was already making her way into the other dimension to avoid the complete destruction of Earth by the time Super Sailor Moon became fully cognizant of her surroundings.

And what I alluded to was this:

Seems as how your focus is manga the proper list of quals actually would be more along the lines of: murder, mayhem, genocide, and vigilantism with no concern for the populace. If it was anime at least it'd mostly be criminal negligence endangering the human species on multiple occassions.

You make her out to be some kind of horrendous monster, no better than the worst Nazi. There's no way that she is, would be, or would need those qualifications to become queen in the Sailor Moon universe. It's simply absurd. Someone is much more likely to think of a war criminal from the Nazi party, or anyone else of that nature, than Sailor Moon, given that description. Because it's just not true. And thus...

Without absolute writer situation control she is about the last person you want with the power she has.

I beg to differ most emphatically.

There. I do believe that's the final nail in the coffin. I separated facts from the opinions, provided facts to back up my arguments (again; with all quotes directly from the manga), and did so civilly. I couldn't let the misconceptions and injustices stand as they were: anyone reading these posts deserves more than that. And, with that said, arguing any further on these matters wouldn't be wise, considering that my arguments continue to stand on firm ground. And that's unlikely to change, all things considered. But that's just my opinion. ;/

Either way, I'm out. I think I lost nine hours of my life writing this thing. Oh, right; I did. <_<;
Crescent Pulsar
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