Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

For submitting and talking about story ideas, individual scenes that need doctoring, outlines, or other detail work that isn't quite ready for the C&C thread.

Idea submissions must be at least five paragraphs long, and include plot points, summaries of which characters are involved, and, for fanfiction, how it differs from canon. Both original and fanfiction ideas welcome. Though original works should have more development. Replying posts must give actual commentary, no "GREAT IDEA" or "THIS SUCKS".

Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby PCHeintz72 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:00 am

HopeSeiketsu wrote:I know I was actually planning on going with something like that, I figured it would be... interesting to see how sailor moon reacts to a 'good guy' like kaze lol.

I thought I might just have him be 'attacked by a daimon while passing through juuban. This also allows him to be able to come in contact with the outers whom I feel there is a MUCH better chance of getting along, at least as far as being associates goes

Tell me what you think. He could even be watched by the outers and be suspected of being one of the Talisman bearers (not that he IS of course but they dont know that) and be attacked by them. I had more to say but an tired so say later (it is 1:00 am so can't really say tomorrow lol) night night

Well... his ruthlessness and business like sense of wanting money would probably be turn offs to the inners.

Not too sure you want the outers thinking him an enemy... For sure would not go well if they attack him, he is not exactly merciful, even if not really a cold blooded killer like his own former family believed at the start.

I do agree somewhat with the earlier post by Maximara... I am generally known to have a darker take on senshi abilities and shown combat awareness and training.

I think the main problem with using Kazuma at all would be in the form of 'what is in it for him'... he is not really hero material. he is not under contract by the family.

Maybe have either the outers offer to house him, or Pluto offer to pay him, but neither option is overly straightforward to write into a plot and make believable.

A better approach would be to have the Daimons and generals constantly target him... That would force his involvement.

EDIT: Oh and one other thing occurs to me, under no circumstances should he be mentally manipulated by any form of either soul bond to a senshi, nor by chibi usa using Luna P... given his past, he would be more liable to rip the perpetrator apart than listen to why it was done.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Maximara » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:59 am

PCHeintz72 wrote:Well... his ruthlessness and business like sense of wanting money would probably be turn offs to the inners.

Not too sure you want the outers thinking him an enemy... For sure would not go well if they attack him, he is not exactly merciful, even if not really a cold blooded killer like his own former family believed at the start.

I do agree somewhat with the earlier post by Maximara... I am generally known to have a darker take on senshi abilities and shown combat awareness and training.

I think the main problem with using Kazuma at all would be in the form of 'what is in it for him'... he is not really hero material. he is not under contract by the family.

Maybe have either the outers offer to house him, or Pluto offer to pay him, but neither option is overly straightforward to write into a plot and make believable.

A better approach would be to have the Daimons and generals constantly target him... That would force his involvement.

EDIT: Oh and one other thing occurs to me, under no circumstances should he be mentally manipulated by any form of either soul bond to a senshi, nor by chibi usa using Luna P... given his past, he would be more liable to rip the perpetrator apart than listen to why it was done.


Speaking of my earlier post there are various continuity issues in Sailor Moon that a fanfic has to be aware of:

1) Where was Sailor Pluto during the whole Beryl (and if you use the anime aliens) saga?

2) Given that the Dark Kingdom was technically outside reality ie outside of the solar system why didn't the Outers wake up then?

3) If you use the anime then the issue of the Outers NOT waking up to address the aliens comes up.

4) Given the battle was between the forces of Earth and its moon how did the rest of the Moon Kingdom get destroyed?

5) Why doesn't Ami point to the fact there is no trace of the Moon Kingdom in terms of history or physical evidence?

As I said before Sailor Moon as a whole suffers from Superman Syndrome (his original origin didn't fit with his later powers) to a level that it isn't funny.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:31 am

1: Guarding the Door of Time, where she is supposed to stay. Or, if not during the Silver Millennium, either doing that or is an unawakened sailor senshi in college. (Well, she was in college in the third story arc of the manga, anyway. She could have been in high school before that, though.) Otherwise, it's not really an issue.

2: You pretty much answered your own question with "technically," though your mileage varies depending on whether it's the anime or manga canon you're talking about. Just to start, the Dark Kingdom in the manga was an actual place on Earth before it was sealed away. I don't recall if that's also the case with the anime, though the final battle also took place in the arctic if I remember correctly.

You have to remember that Uranus and Neptune were patrolling the outer reaches of the solar system, which doesn't suggest that that covers incursions from other dimensions/universes (unless, say, the portal happened to open up where they would notice it). Normally, Pluto is supposed to guard the Door of Time and not leave it unattended, and Saturn is sealed away.

Of course, Michiru and Haruka were on Earth when Pharaoh 90 tried to invade, so the circumstances were different, and the anime and manga differ greatly in regard to how they awoke and what was up with the talismans. Pluto was either doing whatever she did in the anime (I don't remember), or she was a normal woman attending college in the manga. And since Saturn was sealed away, she needed the talismans to awaken.

3: It's not an issue, since there's no rule or precedent for them to respond in such a way, if we're strictly speaking of the anime. As far as we know, sailor senshi awaken if they have their transformation thingy (which is usually given to them), and/or the catalyst affects them directly (like, through another sailor senshi or a cat that can zap them in the head).

4: I don't know what the anime's answer was to that, but Saturn was responsible for that in the manga.

5: I'd have to ask how and/or why it's relevant. What's the problem?

As for "Superman Syndrome": I don't think it's as bad as Superman. Well, I'm more confident when I say that about the manga, anyway. It at least tries to explain many of its notable inconsistencies. The ones that don't succeed tend to raise questions with potential answers instead of leaving plot holes.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Spica75 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:05 pm

5) Why doesn't Ami point to the fact there is no trace of the Moon Kingdom in terms of history or physical evidence?


Why should she? There are dozens of "lost kingdoms" even on earth that have been written about sometime in history, but noone has managed to find. And a few such that has been found, usually after much effort.

Just take a look at the Sahara desert, educated guesstimates figures there´s hundreds of "city" ruins spread out over it from the time 8-10k years ago when the end of the glacial period brought a much nicer weather for some time.
There´s been a steady trickle of artifacts coming out of the desert via touaregs for centuries, but only a handful of ruins have been officially found.

And this is still on EARTH, with relatively easy access.

And in regards to historical evidence? The story specifies "thousands of years ago", we have decent historical evidence for the last 500-1000 years, and spotty for another 1500 or so. Anything beyond that is unlikely to exist in surviving sources.

Then of course, there´s the list of "lost civilisations" to pick from, almost anyone of which potentially could be that evidence.

4) Given the battle was between the forces of Earth and its moon how did the rest of the Moon Kingdom get destroyed?


Pick your poison. Its pretty open to interpretation.

1) Where was Sailor Pluto during the whole Beryl (and if you use the anime aliens) saga?


Busy with what she was supposed to be doing?
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Maximara » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:36 am

Crescent Pulsar S wrote:14: I don't know what the anime's answer was to that, but Saturn was responsible for that in the manga.


I've been told in the past that it was the result of Queen Serenity in the manga with Sailor Saturn getting the blame. :shock:

Spica75 wrote:5) Why doesn't Ami point to the fact there is no trace of the Moon Kingdom in terms of history or physical evidence?

Why should she? There are dozens of "lost kingdoms" even on earth that have been written about sometime in history, but noone has managed to find. And a few such that has been found, usually after much effort.

Just take a look at the Sahara desert, educated guesstimates figures there´s hundreds of "city" ruins spread out over it from the time 8-10k years ago when the end of the glacial period brought a much nicer weather for some time.
There´s been a steady trickle of artifacts coming out of the desert via touaregs for centuries, but only a handful of ruins have been officially found.

And this is still on EARTH, with relatively easy access.

And in regards to historical evidence? The story specifies "thousands of years ago", we have decent historical evidence for the last 500-1000 years, and spotty for another 1500 or so. Anything beyond that is unlikely to exist in surviving sources.

Then of course, there´s the list of "lost civilisations" to pick from, almost anyone of which potentially could be that evidence.


I was talking about the state of the solar system. Based on the manga we know that Sailor moon takes place no earlier then 1994 (Sailor moon is at least 22 at the beginning of the 21 century). According to uniformitarianism geology (which I use in my own fanfic) the Moon has been a DEAD hunk of rock for over 4 billion years, Mars a desert world for millions of years, Venus a pressure cooker of a world for millions of years, and so on. In fact, Carl Sagan in 1980 points to this event:


It was the Sunday before the feast of Saint John the Baptist in the summer of 1178.
The monks of Canterbury Cathedral had completed their evening prayers and were about to retire for the night.
The scholarly brother, Gervase returned to his cell to read while some of the others went outside to enjoy the gentle June air.

In the midst of their recreation they chanced to witness an astonishing sight: A violent explosion on the moon.
This was a time when the heavens were thought to be changeless.
The moon, the stars and the planets were deemed pure because they followed an unvarying celestial routine.
They were expected to behave without unseemly disruptions like monks in a monastery.
Was it wise to discuss such a vision? In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices.
But there are also, in every place and epoch those who value the truth, who record the evidence faithfully.
Future generations are in their debt.

A fire on the moon.
Might it be some portent of ill fortune? Should the chronicler of the monastery be told? Was this event an apparition of the evil one? Gervase of Canterbury was a historian considered today a reliable reporter of political and cultural events of his time.

This is his account of the eyewitness testimony he was given: "Now there was a bright new moon and as usual in that phase its horns were tilted toward the east.
And suddenly the upper horn split in two.
From the midpoint of this division, a flaming torch sprang up spewing out over a considerable distance fire, hot coals and sparks.
After these transformations," Gervase continued "the moon from horn to horn that is along its whole length took on a blackish appearance." Gervase took depositions from all the eyewitnesses.
He later wrote: "The writer was given this report by men who saw it with their own eyes and are prepared to stake their honor on an oath that they have made no addition or falsification." Gervase committed the account to paper enabling astronomers eight centuries later to try and reconstruct what really happened.

It may be that 200 years before Chaucer five monks saw an event more wonderful than many another celebrated Canterbury tale.
If a small drifting mountain were to hit the moon it would set our satellite swinging like a bell.

Eventually, the tremors would die down, but not in a mere 800 years.
So is the moon still quivering from that impact? The Apollo astronauts emplaced arrays of special mirrors on the moon.
Reflectors made by French scientists were also put on the moon by Soviet Lunakhod vehicles.
When a laser beam from Earth strikes a mirror and bounces back the roundtrip travel time can be measured.
At the McDonald Observatory of the University of Texas a laser beam is prepared for firing at the reflectors on the moon 380,000 kilometers away.
By multiplying the travel time by the speed of light the distance to that spot can be determined to a precision of The width of a hand.
When such measurements are repeated over years even an extremely slight wobble in the moon's motion can be determined.

The accuracy is phenomenal.
The error is much less than one-millionth of a percent.
The moon, it turns out, is gently swinging like a bell just as if it had been hit by an asteroid less than 1000 years ago.

So there may be physical evidence in the age of space flight for the account of the Canterbury monks in the 12th century.
If 800 years ago a big asteroid hit the moon the crater should be prominent today still surrounded by bright rays thin streamers of dust spewed out by the impact.
In billions of years, lunar rays are eroded but not in hundreds.
And there is a recent ray crater called Giordano Bruno in the region of the moon where an explosion was reported in 1178.

------

We are not talking about some small "lost civilization" with the Moon Kingdom as with Plato's Atlantis or the island of Mu. We are talking about according to the anime and manga a solar system spanning civilization on par with Tech Level 1 to 2 on the Kardashev scale or somewhere between TL 10-11 on the GURPS TL scale. For reference Star Wars is at TL 8^, Star Trek is (6+3)^ and we are at 7 going into 8.

Being as knowledgeable as Ami is she would be aware of the state of the solar system and so would NOT be buying Luna's story of a Solar system spanning empire. There is simply nowhere in the last 5000 years to put such an empire.
It would be as if a empire on par with that of Rome went belly up and not one trace of it surviving! :shock:
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Spica75 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:21 pm

There is simply nowhere in the last 5000 years to put such an empire.


First of all, where does it say that it was supposed to have happened within that timeframe?
IIRC, the only thing said is "thousands of years ago" or something like that.

And of course you ignore the ultimate "fix it all" that we know is involved, magic...

It would be as if a empire on par with that of Rome went belly up and not one trace of it surviving! :shock:


Not one trace that has been FOUND you mean. Even with the great advances of the last 30 years, anywhere that has not been archaeologically examined is still a potential blank spot on the historical map. And most new sites of interest found nowadays tend to be because an area is looked at in preparation for something to be built there.

And then we have the places where any traces of civilisation would by now simply be gone or unrealistic to find. Like the land areas that are now underwater in the North Sea, covered by sand in the Sahara or other deserts or near where there have been large volcanic eruption.

Being as knowledgeable as Ami is she would be aware of the state of the solar system and so would NOT be buying Luna's story of a Solar system spanning empire.


Being knowledgeable also includes understanding that when you don´t know everything, which nearly impossible to achieve. She has no good reason to dismiss the idea completely.

We are not talking about some small "lost civilization" with the Moon Kingdom as with Plato's Atlantis or the island of Mu. We are talking about according to the anime and manga a solar system spanning civilization on par with Tech Level 1 to 2 on the Kardashev scale or somewhere between TL 10-11 on the GURPS TL scale. For reference Star Wars is at TL 8^, Star Trek is (6+3)^ and we are at 7 going into 8.


Tech level based on magic first, not technology. If it was for real, the world as it is today wouldn´t even know if it found evidence of such a civilisation.

And if you look at known traces of ancient civilisations, you will know that those traces are often extremely limited. Because lots of things doesn´t survive over time. There could easily have been a hyperadvanced civilisation on earth even just 2000 years ago, that we know zero about today, because nothing of theirs were things that last. One example would be living technology, which would be impossible to separate out from anything natural within merely hundreds of years.
And a magic based civilisation could easily be of the same kind.


The moon, it turns out, is gently swinging like a bell just as if it had been hit by an asteroid less than 1000 years ago.


I am unable to find any support for this statement.

And also:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... st26apr_1/

I´m well aware of the use of lasers for measuring distances precisely.

According to uniformitarianism geology (which I use in my own fanfic) the Moon has been a DEAD hunk of rock for over 4 billion years, Mars a desert world for millions of years, Venus a pressure cooker of a world for millions of years, and so on.


So? That´s based on information available to us. And that level of information when the manga was made was not really all that great. And it still isn´t. It´s only very recently that it has been confirmed that there HAS ever been atmosphere and a hydrosphere on Mars for example.

And Venus as it is now, is so hostile that it is exceptionally hard to get any kind of probes to the ground. Best we have is some radarmapping.
We just don´t KNOW nearly as much as we have guesstimated based on very limited information.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby PCHeintz72 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:25 pm

According to uniformitarianism geology (which I use in my own fanfic) the Moon has been a DEAD hunk of rock for over 4 billion years


Actually... this might not be entirely correct... I was reading something just the other day that says there is evidence the moon may have had active magma and tectonic activity as little as 50 million years ago.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:13 pm

Maximara wrote:I've been told in the past that it was the result of Queen Serenity in the manga with Sailor Saturn getting the blame. :shock:

Not Queen Serenity directly. She made it so Saturn appears at the end to clean things up. The Moon Kingdom had fallen and Beryl and Metallia sealed away by the time she appeared. Apparently, she also appeared so the outer senshi could all die and be reborn with the rest of the sailor senshi.

We are not talking about some small "lost civilization" with the Moon Kingdom as with Plato's Atlantis or the island of Mu. We are talking about according to the anime and manga a solar system spanning civilization on par with Tech Level 1 to 2 on the Kardashev scale or somewhere between TL 10-11 on the GURPS TL scale. For reference Star Wars is at TL 8^, Star Trek is (6+3)^ and we are at 7 going into 8.

Just because it spans the solar system doesn't mean that there were settlements of any size actually on any particular planet or moon, or that they were actually habitable or notably different from how they are right now. In fact, the (Sailor V) manga specifically states that Venus was no different than it is now, and the moon looks as barren of civilization in the past as it does later. All we know for certain, about where people of the Moon Kingdom lived, were the palaces that either floated or were in orbit around the various planets/moons. And the thing about them, with the exception of the Moon Palace (until it's magically rebuilt), is that they are still around. So, it's not like it's a mystery why there's no evidence of their existence: they're just hidden from observation.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby PCHeintz72 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm

I'm going to state I think this discussion is mostly pointless...but one thing struck me...

Just because it spans the solar system doesn't mean that there were settlements of any size actually on any particular planet or moon, or that they were actually habitable or notably different from how they are right now. In fact, the (Sailor V) manga specifically states that Venus was no different than it is now, and the moon looks as barren of civilization in the past as it does later. All we know for certain, about where people of the Moon Kingdom lived, were the palaces that either floated or were in orbit around the various planets/moons. And the thing about them, with the exception of the Moon Palace (until it's magically rebuilt), is that they are still around. So, it's not like it's a mystery why there's no evidence of their existence: they're just hidden from observation.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here in regards to at least the anime they very clearly show that the main palace and city of the moon kingdom was in fact actually on the moon...

And given the rivalry and discontent between them, I'm going to say it makes no sense the moon kingdom was on earth.... So, given those are out, unless they lived in orbital habitats or space stations everywhere, somewhere must have had a human environment. Given the current known state of the solar system, unless it was underground, then *somewhere* had to be altered from what it is now.

However... even if every planet was terraformed for say 10,000 years or however long it was the moon kingdom was around, I'm assuming once it was gone it would revert. that being the case... most of the places they would have been would have been wiped clean, the only two exceptions are probably Mars and Moon, due to the lack of geologic events on both, and the complete lack of an atmosphere on the other.

As for invisibility, while I could believe they would be hard to detect, they would be unlikely to maintain a cloak for x years after every potential mage or human powering it would have died.

However... at least one solution to *all* this does exist. I once read a fan fiction where it explained that the moon kingdom was in fact across all the planets. BUT that it was actually spread across two separate levels of quantum reality, and unless you knew how to access it, most of it would not be accessible, not due to cloak, but due to not being directly available or observable from our universe. The youma succeeded in taking it down not only due to attacking and overwhelming large nodes at one time, but cutting off access to and from that node while doing so. So reinforcements could not portal in and escapees portal out.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Crescent Pulsar S » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:07 pm

PCHeintz72 wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with you here in regards to at least the anime they very clearly show that the main palace and city of the moon kingdom was in fact actually on the moon...

I wasn't arguing for the anime, but that's still a very small exception based on everything else that is known either way. Even then, I'm still correct about the moon looking barren of civilization, since we only see a palace and city (so, it's not like it's the "main" of anything on the moon itself, but all there is as far as we know).

And given the rivalry and discontent between them, I'm going to say it makes no sense the moon kingdom was on earth.... So, given those are out, unless they lived in orbital habitats or space stations everywhere, somewhere must have had a human environment. Given the current known state of the solar system, unless it was underground, then *somewhere* had to be altered from what it is now.

Speaking for the manga (Sailor V again), they were on friendly enough terms for the Moon Kingdom soldiers (like those from Venus) to be given over to the command of the Earth's generals (who were converted to the dark side, of course). I wouldn't say that would necessarily put the Moon Kingdom on the Earth, but there was likely a divide regarding relations with the Moon Kingdom since the prince of the Golden Kingdom was clearly on good terms and arguing against rumors/lies about the Moon Kingdom.

As for "underground" dwellings: that's wholly possible, since the Golden Kingdom (in Elysium) was "inside" of the Earth, and Nehellenia had been "inside" the moon prior to being trapped in a mirror. (I use quotations to signify that the meaning is probably not literal. It's probably something that could be explained with such words as "dimension" or "quantum.") The funny thing about the moon, though, is that it always shone with light before Nehellenia is sealed away/says her curse, and that makes me wonder if the moon itself isn't a natural satellite of the Earth.

However... even if every planet was terraformed for say 10,000 years or however long it was the moon kingdom was around, I'm assuming once it was gone it would revert. that being the case... most of the places they would have been would have been wiped clean, the only two exceptions are probably Mars and Moon, due to the lack of geologic events on both, and the complete lack of an atmosphere on the other.

Unless there was one sailor senshi (Saturn) who "appears at the moment of destruction to return everything to dust."

As for invisibility, while I could believe they would be hard to detect, they would be unlikely to maintain a cloak for x years after every potential mage or human powering it would have died.

That's assuming a lot of things we simply can't know about how the palaces operate. Plus, they were operational when we first see them being used, even to the point of putting up a barrier around the entire solar system, and there's nothing that suggests that anyone ever had to do any kind of maintenance on them and/or recharging their power beforehand.

However... at least one solution to *all* this does exist. I once read a fan fiction where it explained that the moon kingdom was in fact across all the planets. BUT that it was actually spread across two separate levels of quantum reality, and unless you knew how to access it, most of it would not be accessible, not due to cloak, but due to not being directly available or observable from our universe. The youma succeeded in taking it down not only due to attacking and overwhelming large nodes at one time, but cutting off access to and from that node while doing so. So reinforcements could not portal in and escapees portal out.

That's not out of the realm of possibility, but what is known about the Moon Kingdom doesn't seem to suggest that that was how it worked. For all we know, Elysium and whatever was at the center of the moon could have been natural, rather than coming into being with technology. Another problem is that a lot of the examples where one thing goes into another thing, even though said thing appears to be a solid object, is better explained by magic, or something considered "natural" in the setting.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Maximara » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:29 am

Spica75 wrote:
Maximara: We are not talking about some small "lost civilization" with the Moon Kingdom as with Plato's Atlantis or the island of Mu. We are talking about according to the anime and manga a solar system spanning civilization on par with Tech Level 1 to 2 on the Kardashev scale or somewhere between TL 10-11 on the GURPS TL scale. For reference Star Wars is at TL 8^, Star Trek is (6+3)^ and we are at 7 going into 8.

Tech level based on magic first, not technology. If it was for real, the world as it is today wouldn´t even know if it found evidence of such a civilisation.

And if you look at known traces of ancient civilisations, you will know that those traces are often extremely limited. Because lots of things doesn´t survive over time. There could easily have been a hyperadvanced civilisation on earth even just 2000 years ago, that we know zero about today, because nothing of theirs were things that last. One example would be living technology, which would be impossible to separate out from anything natural within merely hundreds of years.
And a magic based civilisation could easily be of the same kind.


See that little ^ after the number? That is how GURPS denotes TL that do NOT follow our current view of how the universe works. Spelljammer is (3+4)^ in GURPS TL for example.

The problem with a 2000 year old hyperadvanced civilization is there would be some evidence of it. Foundations of its buildings, remnants of its technology, etc

Spica75 wrote:Maximara: There is simply nowhere in the last 5000 years to put such an empire.

First of all, where does it say that it was supposed to have happened within that timeframe?
IIRC, the only thing said is "thousands of years ago" or something like that.


The anime really hosed the time frame and put the fall of the Moon Kingdom at ONE thousand years ago ie c. 994 CE

Spica75 wrote:And of course you ignore the ultimate "fix it all" that we know is involved, magic....


And you forget the counter: Clarke's Law.

Magic is simply a way of going 'I'm too lazy to figure it out so I slap this label on it and knock off for lunch'. :D

Maximara: According to uniformitarianism geology (which I use in my own fanfic) the Moon has been a DEAD hunk of rock for over 4 billion years, Mars a desert world for millions of years, Venus a pressure cooker of a world for millions of years, and so on.

So? That´s based on information available to us. And that level of information when the manga was made was not really all that great. And it still isn´t. It´s only very recently that it has been confirmed that there HAS ever been atmosphere and a hydrosphere on Mars for example.

And Venus as it is now, is so hostile that it is exceptionally hard to get any kind of probes to the ground. Best we have is some radarmapping.
We just don´t KNOW nearly as much as we have guesstimated based on very limited information.


In the manga the Moon Palace is on Mare Serenitatis and you can at times see the Earth in the sky in the flash backs in the anime. There would be some remains of that building visible if it had ever existed. Mars is even more problematic as something would similarly survive. The Smithsonian did an article in the late 1980s on how long our famous structures would last if we were gone. Most of it wouldn't last intact 1,000 years but there would be remains in the tens of thousands of years and that is with our throw away tech and in "The Last Place on Earth" a series of buildings in a frozen dessert would still strand rivaling Hoover Dam in terms of lasting.

Stuff built to last by the ancients would still be standing-the Great Wall, the Great Pyramids, the temples of the various South American peoples, etc.

PCHeintz72 wrote:However... at least one solution to *all* this does exist. I once read a fan fiction where it explained that the moon kingdom was in fact across all the planets. BUT that it was actually spread across two separate levels of quantum reality, and unless you knew how to access it, most of it would not be accessible, not due to cloak, but due to not being directly available or observable from our universe. The youma succeeded in taking it down not only due to attacking and overwhelming large nodes at one time, but cutting off access to and from that node while doing so. So reinforcements could not portal in and escapees portal out.


Sounds a little like my fanficts where I put the Moon Kingdom in a parallel universe.
Last edited by Maximara on Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Spica75 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:29 am

And you forget the counter: Clarke's Law.


Which i´ve always considered rubbish as it makes assumptions that can neither be proven nor disproven, simply because to do either, we would have to KNOW everything about technology AND magic. And since the latter supposedly does not exist, it´s not just impossible, it´s far beyond impossible.

In the manga the Moon Palace is on Mare Serenitatis and you can at times see the Earth in the sky in the flash backs in the anime. There would be some remains of that building visible if it had ever existed.


Why would there be? There´s a whole bundle of possible ways for such leftovers to be gone, or simply not visible unless someone goes within almost touch range.

The anime really hosed the time frame and put the fall of the Moon Kingdom at ONE thousand years ago ie c. 994 CE


Which is why using the anime for a canon reference is a bad idea. Although i´ve seen claims that that is a bad/overly simplified translation.

The problem with a 2000 year old hyperadvanced civilization is there would be some evidence of it. Foundations of its buildings, remnants of its technology, etc


No, that was my point, whether there are any evidence of it depends on how they did things.
One simple example, wood and paper buildings in Japan, they pretty much disappear in an archaeological sense after just decades unless there´s a specific reason for traces to last longer.
Here, wood buildings from the viking era, in some places traces can be found that are blatantly obvious, while in other locations even a huge construction can be barely visible, and that´s after just about a thousand years.

And again, if a primary component in a civilisation is magic, then today we may not even be capable of seeing traces from it if it did exist.
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:30 am

Maximara wrote:And you forget the counter: Clarke's Law.

Magic is simply a way of going 'I'm too lazy to figure it out so I slap this label on it and knock off for lunch'. :D

Clarke's law says that 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' That's true. But likewise, any sufficiently domesticated magic is indistinguishable from technology.

May I direct the discussion of technology vs magic to an article I wrote some years ago?
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Maximara » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:22 am

Spica75 wrote:Maximara:And you forget the counter: Clarke's Law.

Which i´ve always considered rubbish as it makes assumptions that can neither be proven nor disproven, simply because to do either, we would have to KNOW everything about technology AND magic. And since the latter supposedly does not exist, it´s not just impossible, it´s far beyond impossible.


No it isn't as PROOF that magic little more then 'I'm too lazy to figure it out so I slap this label of "magic" on it and knock off for lunch' label was given in Horace Mitchell Miner's 1956 "Body Ritual among the Nacirema" article. For example here is how chlorination of water is described in that article:

The holy waters are secured from the Water Temple of the community, where the priests conduct elaborate ceremonies to make the liquid ritually pure.

Miner's entire article was a satire of the 'i don't understand why these people are doing this thing. Oh I know I'll call i magic and call it a day' mentality then in the field. Once anthropology (a SCIENCE) stopped being lazy and actually studied magic they found that emicly magic had the same 'if you do A and B correctly you will get C' mentality that physical science did; the only real difference was no real criteria on what "correctly" meant. In reality all magic really was was assuming a correlation between two events that in fact may not be related and loads of explanations of why that relationship can't be reproduced on demand or observed elsewhere.

Ellen Kuhfeld wrote:May I direct the discussion of technology vs magic to an article I wrote some years ago?


Which only proves my contention that magic is nothing more then 'I'm too lazy to figure it out so I slap this label of "magic" on it and knock off for lunch'

Star Trek or Doctor Who technobabble is the opposite extreme and it is particular humorous to watch when the science takes a holiday and you have a whole mess of goofy as a result (Voyager's "Threashold" case in point) :lol:
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Re: Gaea fed up with Mamoru Chooses Another Guardian

Postby Spica75 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:51 pm

Maximara wrote:...


Yes? But in the SM universe, magic is unquestionably real.

And merely saying that this isn´t magic, i just don´t understand it enough, that´s just as bad as the other side of the coin, your "just being lazy" solution.
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