Pretty Monster Sailor Moon

[Crescent Pulsar S]

Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced or different technology is indistinguishable from magic
Niven's Law: Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology.

Both claims are false.

I'd just like to add my two cents. (Just that much 'cause I'm poor, obviously.) Mostly to clarify the last several posts rather than argue. That's the intent I'm going for, anyway.

First, within the context of this story idea, I'd like to think that magic is material, not conceptual. (I think it's important to separate these two types of magic.) As a concept (wherein magic is used to label something as being unexplainable and/or fantastical), Clarke's Law isn't false. However, technology would require the magic to be material, and in that way Clarke's Law is false. As either material or concept, Niven's Law (as written, which I think is incorrect because it should be the direct opposite of Clarke's Law) would be false, because definition is handled by the methodology of science. (It would be akin to putting together the kingdom, class, family, genus, et cetera of a given creature, the result of which not being a technology.) If there's a science to magic, then technology can be fashioned out of it. If there isn't, good luck casting spells or using it for anything with any reliable results.

Spica mentioned that lifting something with one's will couldn't be seen as technology, and I would agree. If the effect has a natural (in this case, biological) source, it can't be technology. Technology requires at least one more step before its function can be the result of itself, and someone to produce it outside of natural processes (if we assume (as most do) that the actions of mankind aren't natural, or -- in other words -- an exception to the natural order of things). It's the difference between finding something that can be used as a straw as it is, and finding something that requires some modifications before it can function like one (which might also require the use of technology).

[Spica75]

If it follows patterns then most likely it has some kind of laws even if they don't comply with our regular ones. Whether it breaks the laws of physics doesn't stop you from researching how it does that. Even if it follows no definable law and is chaotic and erratic, to be of use it must follow some measure of order no matter how small.

Well no... Lets take a real world comparison of technology that still manage to break that idea. There have been testing with selfadjusting/morphing computer chips, thing is that despite how they DO follow every law of physics and have a rather limited range of changes possible, and still noone has ever been able to predict how they end up looking. And that is with hypersimple tasks, like causing a single clear tone at a specific frequency.

Because while adjusting, the hardware doesnt follow any rules other than "achieve specific task", so even though physical laws apply 100%, this technology still manages to achieve a set goal, without being predictable.

So, what does this potentially tell us? It tells us that there is no need for any "measure of order", and that if we can´t predict something that DO follow laws of physics, how are we going to predict something that does NOT?
And that just being irrational does not magic make.

I think an analogy would be that technology is like being very skilled at a video game and achieving great things in it while still following the rules whereas magic is like hacking the coding of the game itself. Both require skill to do but approach the same goals differently. I reiterate : This is damn hard to explain.

Yup.

You gotta love how we're actually debating magical theory.

Not the first forum i do it on...


And i think CPS managed the explanation better than either of us... *doh*

[XofderXofder]

I think I've started to get a handle on the concept of magic and technology with respect to each other.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, it'd be wrong to call magic technology in the same way that you can't call crude oil technology. It's more of a resource or material in a way? Hmm.. Then could it be said that applications of magic through certain media such as objects or inscriptions would be considered technology. Not the magic itself being technology but the power source and the medium being what would be deemed technology no matter how crude in comparison with modern technology. Such as summoning circle or a talisman. The person supplies the intent and the object interprets it and sets about achieving it using magic as the power source. This of course excludes cases where magic is performed with only a practitioner and no medium. Then you could conclude that the person is the medium but you can't classify them as technology. So could you say that the media that accompanies magic is a way of copying the mental processes of the magic practitioner so as to simplify it for more practical use? Of course all this speculation is based on the idea that magic is a separate entity. This also assumes that magic requires a mental component as its main constituent for manifesting.

...

Maybe?

So, what does this potentially tell us? It tells us that there is no need for any "measure of order", and that if we can´t predict something that DO follow laws of physics, how are we going to predict something that does NOT?
And that just being irrational does not magic make.

We can predict what the end result is. Even though these chips are designed to produce that specific frequency they each go about it differently but they all have the same end result. Even if we can't really understand how it does it we can predict which actions cause which result. That assumes that it follows its own laws though. Unpredictable doesn't prove it doesn't follow laws, those chips prove that, but if magic lacks its own laws then when performing acts of magic each outcome will be unpredictable no matter how it goes about doing it. This is more to do with the science of magic though instead of technology at all. Also I understand that something being irrational doesn't make it magic but that doesn't mean that magic isn't irrational, at least in certain areas. An object can have a property while being completely different from an object with the exact same property. All it means is that they share a similarity.

I think all I can really conclude for certain is that magic being technology, in the context of this story at least, is incorrect. Like CPS said this story idea focuses more on the more material idea of magic rather than the conceptual one that those laws refer to.

And i think CPS managed the explanation better than either of us... *doh*

Yup, I think you might be right.

[Blackcat101]

I wonder how a topic about a silly idea for a sailor moon fic ended being a discussion about magic vs science. Anyway this fic is canceled due to lack of editor.

[Noy Telinú]

Oh noes! D:

Perhaps I could find one for you, yes? ^_^

[Blackcat101]

Oh noes! D:

Perhaps I could find one for you, yes? ^_^

That would be helpful. Here is the fic so far

SPOILER - Show Spoiler

http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=7486

I may eventually include Ranma, but NOT as a monster girl, more like a target of the girls affections. Rei of course, will end liking both sides of Ranma, because Rei being bi is a funny fanon.

"So, you are being chased by a Pretty Monster Girl? I am so proud of you!" Happosai had to contain a small tear falling from his left eye "Oh, if only I had knew about monster girls before I became so old and weak, the fun I could have got! But you Ranma, you are in your prime, take your chance when you can!" The fact Happosai sounded so proud of him made Ranma left eye twitch and he barely could hide the expression of disgust in his face. Thankfully a curious thought passed Ranma head before he once more, did something stupid "Wait, you always chase after girls and steal their underwear, why you never go after monster girls?"

Happosai laughed "Ranma, you are so naive, you think I would survive if I tried to steal a monster girl underwear or kami forbid, try to drain their chi? Most people say that hell has no fury like a women scorned, but that fury is a small breeze compared to that of an angry monster girl. Why else you think I left China when hiding in such a big country would be easier than in Japan?"

So, monster girls scared Happosai? For a moment Ranma thought his life would be easier if his cursed form was some kind of monster girl, but then quickly dismissed the thought. It was bad enough turning into a girl, if he turned into a monster girl then all left of his father by now would be a panda rug. And... what those THINGS ate... it was disgusting. For a moment Ranma thought how funny it would be if Akane, who called every guy a pervert, was forced to become a monster girl, would she die in shame?

Wait... Akane doing THAT to him, then hitting him for being a pervert... yes it would probably be worse. A random thought crossed Ranma head, Teacher Minako as a monster girl... instead of draining his chi, she would tell him to wait after class and... dammit! He wasn't a pervert!

"Ranma, you better take a cold shower, that cute girl monster will be disappointed if you waste yourself before she arrives."

Ranma looked down, blushed and for once just went to do what the pervert Grandmaster told him.

[Noy Telinú]

Sorry. Asked the guy and he said no on the principle that you hate Akane. :/

Oh well.

[Blackcat101]

Sorry. Asked the guy and he said no on the principle that you hate Akane. :/

Oh well.

Well, is okay. Akane as a monster girl could be funny, but it would be basically still her. Only she would be internally conflicted, be stronger and Ranma would be REALLY scared of her.

Heck I could write Akane, Nabiki and Kasumi as monster girls and make it work. Is not so much that I hate Akane, is that she is the second most important character after Ranma in Ranma 1/2 and she never develops as a character. If I ever wrote Ranma 1/2 with the Tendo sisters as monster girls, it would probably include some character development, but not to the point of totally changing the characters.

Akane= She is quick to anger, so it would have to be a race of monster that that’s very temperamental, my best guess is Oni girl. She is also quite strong, so I guess I won't be the first guy to write Akane as a Oni.

Nabiki: Greed is her defining feature, and she loves to manipulate people. kitsunes love to trick people and get stuff without paying for real, so yes, I can totally see her as a kitsune. It also fits with her being weak and a non combatant. Probably Nabiki kitsune been done before.

Kasumi: What defines her is kindness to everyone, and also acceptance. She accepts people as they are and rarely, if never, tries to change them. I have to research for this one, it would be easy to make her an angel, but while kasumi is nice, she never seeks to change things and improve them, as an angel would.

And why the Tendo sisters are three different monsters? I could make it so her mother was an Echidna (Superior species of Lamia, said to say to be the mother of all monsters) If I did that, since Kasumi is the eldest, that would make her an Echidna too. The first child of a Echidna is an Echidna too, The rest are different monsters. It would be funny to have the nicest sister be the scariest and most powerful monster.

I could also go that being a monster girl is a rare gen that all human females have, but only only about 10% of girls may become monster girls, they are born as human but become monster girls as teens. Being born for a monster girl increases the chances up to to 40%. And if you saw Ranma female form becoming a monster girl because of the neko-ken, can't say I am surprised.

Well, this topic kind of got derailed, we went from the senshi as monster girls, to ranma as a monster girl, to the Tendo sisters as monster girls. I guess someone should change the tittle from " Pretty Monster Sailor Moon" to just "Pretty monsters".

[OSMQEP]

I've a variation that strikes my fancy.

I use a different mix of crossovers, that I've not read the originals of. (Teito Monogatari, Sailor Moon, and Lovecraft)

Ol' man Kato really hates Tokyo, and seeks to extinguish it. He somehow knows about Crystal Tokyo being likely, the Senshi being beyond his ability to deal with directly, and the upcoming death and resurrection of the Senshi. So, he sets out to make sure the Senshi come back different, in a way that would interfere with them preserving Tokyo.

He sets up a museum, and lures them there with the prospect of a Youma fight, real or fake. While they are there, they are separated and individually treated with the essence of different monsters.

I haven't figured out the logistics of him tricking the Dark Kingdom into being an effective part of his trap, so the default assumption is that the Youma and draining operation are fake.

My current assumption is that 'treating with essence' involves a Senshi fighting and killing an entity, one of the fake youma, in a room specially tailored for the purpose. The fight and the death release energy, which is focused on the Senshi by the construction and furniture of the room.

A fake youma would probably need to be some manner of shikigami. I don't know the provenance of the idea that killing a thousand youkai causes one to become a youkai. If it is solid enough, probably the thing to do would be to have the 'youma' be a thousand youkai per sailor.

As Senshi, they resist the transformation without noticing it. But between death and life it takes hold, changing them forever.

Little does Yasunori Kato know that some of the artifacts collected in the museum are beyond his full understanding. That and the fight being near a city of the elder things mean that the transformations go beyond his calculations.

Anyway, despite liking it, I haven't figured out everything I need to make a story of it, and it seems beyond my current skill anyway. That and I have massive crossoveritis acting up again.

Might have the inner Senshi end up as shikigami, temporarily under the control of Yasunori.

Might have corrupted or semi corrupted Inner Senshi playing off the Outer Senshi.

Or maybe part of a wider comedy about everything Kato does going wrong on him.

[Blackcat101]

Killing monsters usually don’t turn you into one unless the monster curses you before you die or the monster had a curse about the one who killed him taking his power. I honesty prefer the monster girl transformation to be a side-effect of using the Silver Crystal due to Usagi bypassing the "You must die" requirement. That may not be canon, but then is a fanfic.

[Maximara]

"Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced or different technology is indistinguishable from magic
Niven's Law: Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."
Both claims are false.

No they are not.

The RPG aid GURPS Fantasy is an excellent reference regarding magic as technology and via versa.

Even in our world magic has "rules" (see Authentic Thaumaturgy by Isaac Bonewits) and in a world where magic worked on demand models as to why those rules exist could be formulated, tested, and either accepted or rejected. Ie magic would become an actual SCIENCE (GURPS uses the term Thaumaturgy to describe this science) in such a world.

Also remember that technology at its most basic level is the "making, modification, usage, and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, crafts, systems, and methods of organization, in order to solve a problem, improve a pre-existing solution to a problem, achieve a goal, handle an applied input/output relation or perform a specific function."

In a world where magic actually worked on demand it would certainly qualify as a technique or craft.

Here are some examples from GURPS Fantasy of magic as technology:

Create Air spell = Oxygen tank (TL5)
Purity Water spell = Water Filter (TL6)
Cure Disease spell = antibiotics (TL6)

This shows the inherent problem with allowing magic in your average fictional pre-industrial world--the more common magic is the less likely the world is going to stay pre-industrial.

For example, take these three spells from GURPS Magic: Shape Metal, Create Fire, Create Water. With the right application you know what these three spells get you? The steam engine (TL5).

Heck, just Shape Metal will change things drastically if it is common enough.

Another example is Plant Growth where one month's growth is done in a minute. And in GURPS Magic this is a low level spell in that you don't have to be a mage or cleric to learn or cast it.

I think this should hammer the point home.

[Maximara]

I think I've started to get a handle on the concept of magic and technology with respect to each other.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, it'd be wrong to call magic technology in the same way that you can't call crude oil technology. It's more of a resource or material in a way?

Not really. Magic is the way manipulate or use a source be it mana, the power of some supernatural being, or what ever.

Take the Slayers anime for example. You have three types of magic which tap into different resources: Black Magic taps into the Dark Lords, White into that of the Gods, and Shamanism taps into the power of Spirits.

Magic is the method by which the resource is tapped. This means magic is a tool just like a wheel or lever ie magic is technology.

[Blackcat101]

You guys should take this discussion to spamville as it has NOTHING to do with the fic.

[Maximara]

You guys should take this discussion to spamville as it has NOTHING to do with the fic.

Actually it has EVERYTHING to do with the fic per what I said earlier:

Given that the Moon Kingdom is beyond a Type I civilization on the Kardashev scale (TL 10 on the GURPS 4e RPG scale ; we are Type 0.7 and TL7-8 respectively for reference), it is pretty hard to justify NOT going out to Uranus (and beyond) when you are at that Tech Level. After Beryl the Sailor Senshi's foes get into Star Trek and Star Wars TLs 9 to 11 depending on what you are looking at with the main reason the Sensei winning is their foes are tactical idiots.

Furthermore, even if you limit yourself to Jupiter you have its satellites where at least four are bigger then Earth's moon...so where are their Sailor Senshi?

Before you go into the old "its magic" song an dance let me introduce to Clarke's and Niven's Laws:

Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced or different technology is indistinguishable from magic
Niven's Law: Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology.

I should mention that Jupiter is an outer planet so why Sailor Jupiter is classified as an inner senshi is beyond me.

[Blackcat101]

Ruling an empire that covered the whole Galaxy sure had lot of troubles. My view is that not only the Dark Kingdom was very weakened by being sealed away, the generals and Beryl also became insane. And about the Senshi being inept, they where normal school girls, they didn't have all the training their past lives had. They only had Senshi for planets that where colonized. The Sailor Senshi where also the Moon Kingdom secret weapon. The whole argument about magic vs science has NOTHING to do about my idea of turning the Senshi into monsters girl cause Usagi tried to cheat her death.