Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

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In a fight, of course. What say you!?

Poll ended at Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:11 am

Ranma's male form! Wild Horse SMASH!
4
33%
Ranma's female form! Tee-hee!
6
50%
Neither! I would have them BOTH! ...Wait.
2
17%
 
Total votes : 12

Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:11 am

Take into consideration as many aspects as you find applicable to draw a conclusion.

Or go the way of the cop out and never become a great thinker of our times! Of our TIMES! *Froths at the mouth*

I'm still doing the "take into consideration" phase, until I'm sure I've thought of everything that I can, so no vote from me, yet. Yay?
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Dumbledork » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:26 am

It depends on the situation I guess.
And that's the bottom line 'cause Dumbledork said so.

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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby three headed dog » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:55 am

While there are some circumstances in which being female would be most advantageous, for a martial artists in early 1990's Japan being male would be advantageous more often.

Males get paid significantly more than females for doing the same job, get significantly more respect than females, Ranma's male form is physically superior to his female form in most ways (stronger, tougher, faster - at least in straight out running), it also the form Ranma was born with and had longer so has better reaction time and more practice time has been put into that form (he'd fight better as a male).
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Knight of L-sama » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:20 pm

Male form because that's the form he's most comfortable with, prefers to spend his time as and does the majority of his training in, only adapting his techniques to female form on the fly when necessary. He rarely or ever trains specifically in female form which probably has a slight but distinct impact.
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:56 pm

Okay, I decided to go with his female form. I determined that size and reach aren't really issues (because of Happosai and Cologne) with the right training and mindset, and being the smaller of two has less limits regarding method of attack on them than their opponent. If I assume that ki is the prime source of a person's strength, what strength muscles impart is all but negligible if ki is responsible for lifting tons and delivering a likewise amount of force. With less body mass for ki to move around, it'd be faster to be a girl in addition to being a smaller target without a significant sacrifice in strength.

Mind you, I said with the right training and mindset. While I don't think the former is an issue for Ranma, I think the latter is to some extent. His preference for fighting as a guy, for whatever reason is given at the time, has been shown to inhibit his ability to fight effectively on occasion.

three headed dog wrote:Males get paid significantly more than females for doing the same job, get significantly more respect than females...

It's not a social or economic matter. XD
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby three headed dog » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:33 pm

It's not a social or economic matter.


You said to "Take into consideration as many aspects as you find applicable to draw a conclusion." those are aspects that can be taken into consideration, even in battle (they do so in things like war, hell social standing or economic wealth can and often have been deciding factors in battle - like having access to or affording better weaponry).

Even if we are judging it purely on ki ignoring things like males having a higher pain threshold than females, being physically tougher (skin for example is 20% thicker in males and usually firmer because it is richer in collagen and elastin levels), greater reach, more muscle mass, etc. Ranma's ki is also weaker in female form in the manga this is shown mostly by Herb who upon changing to male became significantly more powerful. While there are many reasons why this could be, seeing how Herb and Ranma have the same curse, the same reasons would most likely apply to Ranma. Also how does body mass effect ki? A larger body mass could naturally produce more ki so a person that gains mass could also gain ki at the same time (we simply do not know if it does or not). Though reach has been an issue on a few occasions such as the pressure points used on Miss Hinako, Happosai was to small to reach them (they usually use tools to add reach such as Cologne using her cane). Happosai does throw around a lot more ki than Cologne does for whatever reason (could be any number of reasons).
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:26 pm

It's not a social and economic matter because the fight in question is already an actuality, happening. That's how it's qualified in the poll: "in a fight," not, "when a fight," or, "if this fight." And it doesn't go much beyond the body because it's about Ranma's two forms. Yes, the circumstances for what kind of fights Ranma could get into is quite numerous and gender could certainly tie into them in as many ways, and that's why the question is aimed within rather than without. Otherwise, the most obvious answer, that makes the most sense, would be: it just depends.

Beyond that, it's fine to make any assumption you want about how things work (like with ki), or if you wish to use real life science on fictional characters to explain whatever pro or con you think applies. That's mostly what I meant with my opening sentence, given the context.

In regard to Herb being more powerful as a male, I assumed that it was because he wasn't wholly human, in that he's part dragon and they're strongly associated with the male aspect of things (including energy). Beyond Herb, I don't recall there ever being any clear example (in the manga) of a normal human person being weaker because they were female or because they were small (like Happosai and Cologne).

But I think it would be (please note why I'm emphasizing that) wrong to assume that Happosai is stronger than Cologne, seeing as they've never fought against each other to conclusion (except perhaps once, in the past) and their personality and intelligence is the more likely reason for why we see Happosai show off his stuff so much while Cologne doesn't.
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby mondu_the_fat » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:42 am

Given equal skill, the larger, heavier fighter has the advantage. Male form is Ranma's natural form that he has trained in all his life. Males have higher pain threshold, and more aggressive.

Even if you're going to use "ki" as an excuse, unless you're arguing that Ranma's ki is greater in one form or another, the heavier, larger fighter STILL has an advantage.

If I assume that ki is the prime source of a person's strength, what strength muscles impart is all but negligible if ki is responsible for lifting tons and delivering a likewise amount of force. With less body mass for ki to move around, it'd be faster to be a girl in addition to being a smaller target without a significant sacrifice in strength.


Double standard. You are ignoring physics (larger mass=greater strength) in one hand, but applying it to another (less mass=greater speed).

I determined that size and reach aren't really issues (because of Happosai and Cologne) with the right training and mindset, and being the smaller of two has less limits regarding method of attack on them than their opponent.


1) Except, canonically, size does make a difference. See Mousse vs Ranma.
2) are you arguing that if Cologne or Happosai were twice the size they are they wouldn't be a better fighter?

I'm going to have to ask a citation for that.

Basically, your entire argument that Ranma is better in his female form is a couple of throwaway lines in the anime about her being faster.
Last edited by mondu_the_fat on Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Dumbledork » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:48 am

There's no indication in the manga as to which form is stronger of faster. The only thing we know is that he has a shorter reach in girl form (fight with Mousse)
And that's the bottom line 'cause Dumbledork said so.

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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:08 pm

mondu_the_fat wrote:Given equal skill, the larger, heavier fighter has the advantage. Male form is Ranma's natural form that he has trained in all his life. Males have higher pain threshold, and more aggressive.

Even if you're going to use "ki" as an excuse, unless you're arguing that Ranma's ki is greater in one form or another, the heavier, larger fighter STILL has an advantage.

Having an advantage for those reasons is a pile of brown smelly stuff, even in real life. And I'll tell you why: the brain. Muscle and size don't mean much if the person who isn't equal or greater in size and strength knows how to use what they have, unless the difference in size and strength is extreme. (And it'd also depend on intent and scruples. It's not that difficult to crush a windpipe, and all one needs is the ability to reach it.) An example right off the top of my head is weight lifting. Technique is just as important as the person's strength in determining how much weight they are able to lift, or lift at all. Another example is someone who can't fold a frying pan like their weaker opponent, because it's not that they have to be as strong or stronger, but strong enough and know how to apply that strength. There are plenty examples in history where smaller, less-experienced and/or ill-equipped armies have performed well and beyond what anyone could have expected from them, if not actually come out victorious (both in battles and wars).

(Wait, aren't I basically saying: it's not the size that matters, but how you use it? And I get to say it outside of a penile context. Excellent! *Air guitar!*)

Double standard. You are ignoring physics (larger mass=greater strength) in one hand, but applying it to another (less mass=greater speed).

Um... no, I didn't? If you push two balls of differing sizes with the same amount of force, the lighter ball will travel faster (and thus further, which is irrelevant). I'm not arguing about strength at all. I was saying that speed (together with a smaller size) lends its own advantage, which I (in my opinion) consider to be better than being stronger by such a small margin that it doesn't really matter. Because I'm assuming that, even with the difference in size and musculature, the ki is the same both quantitatively and qualitatively (because there's no clear evidence that there is any change between genders and size in a human form), and thus the difference in the force delivered by a punch would remain the same: the male form would still pack more of a punch despite the increase in speed in the female form, but ki makes that difference almost negligible because (just for example) it's one thing to feel the difference between five-hundred and seven-hundred pounds of force, and it's quite another when both of those numbers range in the several tons (either way, both forms will hit like a wrecking ball at that point).

And I'm not even throwing technique into the mix. Some in the lighter weight classes have been known to punch with just as much force as those in the heavier weight classes, even from one extreme to the other. Also, because the female form doesn't have as much upper body mass and strength, there's nothing that says Ranma hasn't or wouldn't learn to put more of his body behind his blows to make up for it in female form, or even surpass it if he doesn't change how he uses his body when in male form. He probably wouldn't conserve as much energy in his female form as a result, and it may even decrease his options as far as mobility after-the-fact is concerned, but those things aren't at issue. In the end, Bruce Lee wasn't famous because he was big and strong, but because he knew how to use his body effectively. I think I'm being rather fair by treating his male and female forms as being (more or less) fundamentally equal with my assumptions regarding ki (not simply with size and strength as if there weren't any ki involved), and that it's only my opinion about speed and being a smaller target that I consider the female form better in spite of that. And Ranma does seem to favor speed and dodging to overpowering with force, and that's why I even bother with said opinion.

1) Except, canonically, size does make a difference. See Mousse vs Ranma.

I'd like to say that it's my opinion that that miscalculation in reach was completely and utterly contrived. Either way, it's "can" make a difference, not "does." Happosai and Cologne are unarguably among the best of the best despite their extreme lack of reach. Like many obstacles, a difference in reach can be worked around, overcome or even used to one's advantage. For instance, if Happosai had wanted to win a fight against Hinako instead of simply canceling her ability to suck up someone's energy, he would have had other options by which to incapacitate her, even by using shiatsu (a simple poke at the back of the neck, for instance).

2) are you arguing that if Cologne or Happosai were twice the size they are they wouldn't be a better fighter?

I'm saying that, considering their abilities as fighters -- as they are -- that it wouldn't really matter if scaled. Could they be better if they were bigger? I'd say it's possible and that it would depend. It would all come down to how they use what they have, and if they change their technique and/or behavior along with the change in speed, power, larger size and longer reach. They could adapt new ways of using their changed bodies to complement their larger bodies, or stay the same or change to their detriment.

Basically, your entire argument that Ranma is better in his female form is a couple of throwaway lines in the anime about her being faster.

I find that very impossible since my default source is the manga and I intentionally withheld from making any comment about certain instances in the anime (both TV and OVA) because I haven't and won't use it, much less need it. I really don't care for the distinct pros and cons that the anime engendered in his two forms, at the very least because of the shallow reasoning behind them (which means that they don't make enough sense for me to sponsor).
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby mondu_the_fat » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:49 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Having an advantage for those reasons is a pile of brown smelly stuff, even in real life. And I'll tell you why: the brain. Muscle and size don't mean much if the person who isn't equal or greater in size and strength knows how to use what they have, unless the difference in size and strength is extreme.


Except this is the same person we're talking about here, not different people. Same brain, skill, same knowledge, same training. The difference is one is larger, hits harder, and has longer range, soaks better, and spent 16 years of his life in it.

And it'd also depend on intent and scruples. It's not that difficult to crush a windpipe, and all one needs is the ability to reach it.)


So, you're arguing that female Ranma has more skill than male Ranma, or more vicious?

And I'm not even throwing technique into the mix. Some in the lighter weight classes have been known to punch with just as much force as those in the heavier weight classes, even from one extreme to the other.


Are these the same person or different people?

There's a reason why boxing has an anal weight system. So does sports wrestling and MMA. Even a 5 pound difference or a single inch of reach makes a huge impact. You might call this "brown unpleasant stuff", but whatever. The smaller, lighter person has to have higher skill, something which female Ranma does. not. have.

Also, because the female form doesn't have as much upper body mass and strength, there's nothing that says Ranma hasn't or wouldn't learn to put more of his body behind his blows to make up for it in female form, or even surpass it if he doesn't change how he uses his body when in male form.


So, what's to prevent him from applying this knowledfe to his male form?

Better leverage=hits harder.

In the end, Bruce Lee wasn't famous because he was big and strong, but because he knew how to use his body effectively.


Are you saying Bruce Lee couldn't hit harder if he were larger?


I'd like to say that it's my opinion that that miscalculation in reach was completely and utterly contrived.


In other words, you're ignoring canon for your convenience. You can argue that its manga canon, but, like I said, anime canon has it as a throw away line rather than a plot point. Ranma MENTIONS it.

Your entire argument rests on this.

Happosai and Cologne are unarguably among the best of the best despite their extreme lack of reach.


Again, are you saying they can't apply their knowledge if they were larger?
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Re: Which of Ranma's two forms is the most advantageous?

Postby Spokavriel » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:39 pm

I haven't read anything because I am posting my opinion irregardless of everyone else. Ranma's female form has the most advantages IMO because Ranma is more willing to take advantage of the advantages offered than in birth form. Ranma's Honor conception and ego get in the way of exploiting as many opportunities when male. If Ranma were as willing to go all out, anything goes, when male as when female then it would balance out, again IMO.
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