Saw some inspirational words.

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Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Spokavriel » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:33 pm

Well it depends on how you read it. But read it both ways and then consider it with the Quote from Glenn Beck at an NRA event.

"When you read it up" - Glenn Beck

    This is the Future of America
    We are a country going down the tubes
    I refuse to believe that
    Courage and compassion are our birthright
    Our glory days are over
    I would be lying if I said that
    We are a strong and vibrant country
    That our families and our neighbors sustain us
    Here's what you should know
    The same tired excuses
    We no longer have
    The desire to work hard
    The hunger to turn things around
    The faith in God to lead us
    Across the country, I see in our faces
    That we're happy to be second rate
    I refuse to believe
    America is the moral leader of the world.
    This isn't the end. On 9/12 it is just the beginning.
((GBTV
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:07 pm

Eh. The people with the money and the resources will continue their stranglehold on our government and economy to increase said money and resources, thus continuing to deplete the means for the average American citizen to live well and meaningfully. In part because too many people won't or can't stand up and act, or because they're convinced (due to stupidity, ignorance or blind faith) that what they believe is good for the country when -- in fact -- it's more likely to benefit the few people who are both much better off and probably the cause of their problems in the first place.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Spokavriel » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:21 pm

3 things need to be done to break the cycle. 1) Cut Spending, 2) Cut Taxes, 3) Cut Regulation. As spending and Regulation get reduced and the Federal government shrinks more freedom is restored to the states to make it easier for the free market to make up for the faults of the last 80 or so years of government spending mistakes.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:44 pm

Aside from cutting spending, those are the kinds of ideas that I think are more harmful than beneficial.

I'll start with taxes. While I don't like how the taxing system works, since you're obligated to give money to people that you have to trust to know how to use it wisely (good luck with that), cutting taxes is not the be all and end all of solutions. We've had much higher taxes in our history and our country was doing just fine; in fact, there have been no recessions or depressions for long periods of time when our taxes were higher than they are today. That, and I think it's completely idiotic to tax one group of people more/less than another, and simply retarded when it's the poor that have to pay a higher percentage of their earnings while the rich pay a lower percentage. At the very least the taxes for the rich should be raised so it's the same as what everyone pays.

And deregulation to solve economic problems is bullshit, pure and simple. I do think there's a limit to what the government should do, and I'll readily agree that the government gets its hands into many things that it shouldn't, but a big part of why our economy is in the condition that it is in is because there either wasn't enough regulation for certain things, or the kind needed wasn't in practice. Frankly, I don't support a "free market" because it's full of opportunism and capitalism, which makes it more of a parasite than anything else. It's all about making a profit first, and to hell with however that might affect a country (or countries); it's not like corporations are citizens of any particular country, and thus must be loyal to its needs. No; with how much leverage corporations already have over the government and its policies, the last thing a country like ours needs is to give them more freedom to effectively rape and pillage it. Countries can be brought to ruin through more means than pitting man against man in a flesh and blood battle. Which is probably the oldest form of how the rich and powerful use the average person for their own ends. Our "free market" is already poisoning to our republic/democracy; giving it any more free reign would only make it that much more potent.

To be honest, I don't think the cycle will be broken until we have a revolution. There's just too many layers of garbage for a few surface issues to resolve anything, or resolve them for any appreciable amount of time. I'd be in favor of the states having more control over their own policies, and the central government having less power than any individual state (effectively putting more focus on self-defense and foreign matters), but only under certain conditions. And I'd definitely want the country to go back to a non-interventional policy, and to stop dicking around in other countries by giving certain groups money, weapons or performing coup d'etats to potentially change the ruler of a sovereign nation to someone they find more favorable (for one reason or another). And taxes should be voluntary. Each individual should be able to put however much money they want into whatever they feel needs that money. People can vote on what things are open for paying taxes toward, and an estimated goal (how much funds it would take to accomplish it) and the amount of money paid toward it so far would be easily accessible. Excess money would automatically get sent back to the sender once the goal is reached. (Also, making people play a more active role in paying taxes would encourage people to be more aware and savvy in matters of governmental affairs and such. We need less ignorant and recumbent people in that area.)
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Spokavriel » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:19 pm

Do you see ANYWHERE I even imply that Cutting Taxes is a be all end all? As to Taxes over history every time people have been paying higher than 20% combined State and Federal taxes less revenue is gained from the people being taxed over all because they move their assets out of the equation. We have allot of room for cuts. I didn't say End taxes or even imply that but cutting them and getting them back so EVERYONE pays some makes allot of sense to me. Just based on history. Open up the time line. Every time Taxes go higher so does the National Debt and Government Revenue (income) repeatedly goes down. When FDR got our nation up into the 70+% Tax range he had less than half the revenue, not even with a per capita adjustment but literally only half what was being brought in to the Federal coffers as there was under Coolidge.

I actually doubt you have taken the time to read through a tax booklet to see how taxes work with you actually honestly thinking that the "Poor" who have recently been paying nothing are paying more than the "Rich" (Average of people earning 200,000-250,000 a year) who with Property taxes are often paying more than 40% when comparing total tax payment to gross income. For comparison a Middle Class person making between 80,000 and 120,000 a year is paying on average 25% taxes. Open a tax guide this year and do the math remembering that these people with higher earnings actually own things.

These are generalizations and I do not want to retype the full table I'm drawing the averages from. My scanner software is on another computer.

You are apparently incapable of discussing regulations. The Government Regulations are stripping authority and rights from both the State and the People of this nation. If it does not apply directly to commerce that crosses state lines, National Security, And Diplomacy the Federal Government has No Right to Regulate IT.

Your view on Capitalism is why I feel you are a socialist. We had an unfettered free market until FDR imposed price controls under his NRA programs. Every time we have returned to it since has drastically reduced national debts and coincided with massive industry and technological booms. If we simply reduced Federal attempts at micromanagement to only areas where it actually saves life it would pull allot of sabot out of the gears of our economy.

Its strange how Corporations are often the only entities that can afford to get the waivers to the Federal Regulations. Driving the small businesses out of business and stifling the true free market. Making it so the rich big businesses are the only true beneficiaries of Government Regulation. When businesses ignore demand they are left with unsellable product. If they make poor products competition will provide better product and put them out of business. The Free Market when Free is amazingly self regulating.

Bottom line the Big Corporations love the Federal Regulations because they have the ins to get around all the ones that could hurt them. Getting rid of superfluous regulations would hurt the big corporations because it would allow small business to flourish again and make it so "Too big to fail" once again becomes the lie it truly is. Because there is plenty of competition to take over when they do fall.

Actually our Restrained Market that is the closest to free left on Earth is what is making it so companies can get so big and powerful. The Big Government washing the back of their friends. Same with Big Unions. Unions that are now organizing most government employees including those guys who are having to do the pat downs at the airports. The same Unions that bully their members to vote for specific people. The same Unions "Trusted" to handle all the ballot boxes and transfer of ballot records to the registrar in 40 states each year.

I don't think a Revolution can give us anything better than we currently have unless it is well informed and educated with all the lessons we had in our first Revolution. Lessons that have not been taught in 50 or so years outside of college or private study. For States to have authority over policy Federal Regulations need to be cut. They are currently not allowed.

Fully agree on getting USA's nose out of the rest of the world's business. We unfortunately can not do that without disbanding the UN. And people are too afraid to do that. Voluntary Tax would never work. People can donate to the government right now if they want to. But no they don't. But it is an idea for a different system.

Hope I didn't offend you or come across harsh in any of this. I do have a question though. Did you know that right now Federal Regulations currently in place and supposedly in force by character count is 3 times more text than the total printed works collected in the library of Congress. Before the Obama Administration it was only 1/2 by character count the total printed material of the library. I think we have room to do allot of cutting.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby frice2000 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:58 pm

resources will continue their stranglehold on our government and economy to increase said money and resources, thus continuing to deplete the means for the average American citizen to live well and meaningfully. In part because too many people won't or can't stand up and act, or because they're convinced (due to stupidity, ignorance or blind faith) that what they believe is good for the country when -- in fact -- it's more likely to benefit the few people who are both much better off and probably the cause of their problems in the first place.

Yes, we could well do with some reforms to remove some corporate influence. Actually meaningfully enforcing anti-trust laws would likely be beneficial to the country. But, a dramatic change or breaking down our countries structure isn't the way to bring that about either.

it's completely idiotic to tax one group of people more/less than another, and simply retarded when it's the poor that have to pay a higher percentage of their earnings while the rich pay a lower percentage

Hehe. OK let's get everyone to pay a flat non-adjustable tax rate. I have no problem with that. What that does though you'd be very surprised, the poor will pay a LOT more taxes if such a thing goes into effect. The rich pay significantly more now. Sure there are some nice tax loop holes to jump through but they still on average pay far far more then anyone else.

We had an unfettered free market until FDR imposed price controls under his NRA programs.

FDR was a god among us poor mortals. How DARE YOU besmirch his social, federal, and unconstitutional judicial programs! They were all so successful. World War 2 did NOTHING to bring us out of the Depression it was all federal aid programs. I pass the shrine to his godhood, located in the anointed grounds of Hyde Park often. All hail FDR. Blessed be.

Its strange how Corporations are often the only entities that can afford to get the waivers to the Federal Regulations. Driving the small businesses out of business and stifling the true free market. Making it so the rich big businesses are the only true beneficiaries of Government Regulation

Eh, as long as the government doesn't overly restrict e-commerce small businesses, media, and entertainment seem set for a real resurgence unlike anything in history. They can sell to a wider global audience unrestricted then ever before. Of course service jobs and purely local jobs this screws over horribly so true to some extent.

"Too big to fail" once again becomes the lie it truly is

No businesses too large will not be allowed to fail. Too much political power. See GM. I'm not overly worried though, I see China's economy crashing once their people start expecting more money for their labor. World is moving towards a global depression thanks to too many people and too many countries getting industrialized. Hopefully, we'll be driven by lack of resources out into space, since we positively refuse to begin advances there without an impetus, within the next hundred years and we'll actually have a boom of exploration and technologies again. That or we'll all kill each other in an orgy of nuclear destruction, but that seems less likely to me.

I don't think a Revolution can give us anything better than we currently have unless it is well informed and educated

The country is too apathetic for a Revolution. That will never happen again in this country as a popular uprising. Besides, if you're that overly concerned about socialism and considering the way the government is currently going even if another socialist president is elected and we've got another 12 years of these programs we'll have more then that time period of a more conservative policy. Again, not overly worried everything is cyclic and getting outraged that after ~12 years of pretty conservative government you go strongly leftist for only 4 is a very historic sort of reaction. It's how the American people have always been. You can say that these sort of policies never would've passed in the past and that's likely true but times change and some of the excesses will no doubt be chipped away by coming elections.

Lessons that have not been taught in 50 or so years outside of college

You think Colleges teach...Yeah they don't. They teach the same exact same biased material as public schools. That stranglehold on education lessens as the 60's and 70's radicals die or retire but yeah you're going to have 30+ years of very liberally educated kids who refuse to consider any other perspective but there own. Look at popular culture. Again it's all cyclic and things will change I'm not overly concerned though it does frustrate me to be in said environment.

Fully agree on getting USA's nose out of the rest of the world's business. We unfortunately can not do that without disbanding the UN.

No. The US can't remove itself from the worlds problems. We do that and other countries who will not at all have our interests at heart step in. The UN is a pretty useless diplomatic organization yes, but military alliances like NATO and nuclear weapons are the reasons we've had such minor wars since the 40's. Dropping out does not make us invulnerable and that's the only thing I've ever really agreed with more classically liberal policies on. The world effects us greatly, and plans to assist other countries in growing healthily benefits us as well.

Hope I didn't offend you or come across harsh in any of this.

Oh I'm pretty sure most saw that your initial source quotation came from Glenn Beck and automatically were offended. While I'm not on the left politically in the slightest other then a smattering of purely social concerns I'm not a big fan of him either. There are more entertaining and educated hosts on the right then him. What I wouldn't give for WABC to bring back Curtis and Kuby in the morning that was such a nicely balanced interesting show with two personalities on purely divided sides on almost every issue but they didn't just scream at each other for 5 hours a day and actually had reasonable conversations something I wish was replicated in the media in general. But sadly no, people like Glen Beck and Sean Hannity are the ones who succeed in the world. While I find people like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter occasionally humorous and witty Beck strikes me as purely stirring the pot and slinging mud with little intellect behind it (and yes I've read his work).

Anyway, could write pages on this, but really not the forum to do so and I'm not getting paid for doing so...So I'll refrain.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Spokavriel » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:57 pm

We had an unfettered free market until FDR imposed price controls under his NRA programs.
frice2000 wrote:FDR was a god among us poor mortals. How DARE YOU besmirch his social, federal, and unconstitutional judicial programs! They were all so successful. World War 2 did NOTHING to bring us out of the Depression it was all federal aid programs. I pass the shrine to his godhood, located in the anointed grounds of Hyde Park often. All hail FDR. Blessed be.
LOL Oh that was great. Laughed a while on that one. Ever notice that the only reason given for the Federal Government having 50% revenue with 8 times higher tax burden is explained off as all the men being at war. Even though the work force, from Women going to work, was still 85% what it was before the start of the war?

frice2000 wrote:Eh, as long as the government doesn't overly restrict e-commerce small businesses, media, and entertainment seem set for a real resurgence unlike anything in history. They can sell to a wider global audience unrestricted then ever before. Of course service jobs and purely local jobs this screws over horribly so true to some extent.
Have you checked out what the FCC has been doing since last December. Be careful what you don't look for it may bite you.

"Too big to fail" once again becomes the lie it truly is
frice2000 wrote:No businesses too large will not be allowed to fail. Too much political power. See GM. I'm not overly worried though, I see China's economy crashing once their people start expecting more money for their labor. World is moving towards a global depression thanks to too many people and too many countries getting industrialized. Hopefully, we'll be driven by lack of resources out into space, since we positively refuse to begin advances there without an impetus, within the next hundred years and we'll actually have a boom of exploration and technologies again. That or we'll all kill each other in an orgy of nuclear destruction, but that seems less likely to me.
Have you noticed that GM Paid its loan by borrowing money from TARP? And have you noticed that since Obama effectively bought GM their profits have not gotten above their expenses. And they have actually spent, each year, 3 times the operating budget from the last year before they declared Bankruptcy? I say let it fail quit wasting the money.

I don't think a Revolution can give us anything better than we currently have unless it is well informed and educated
frice2000 wrote:The country is too apathetic for a Revolution. That will never happen again in this country as a popular uprising. Besides, if you're that overly concerned about socialism and considering the way the government is currently going even if another socialist president is elected and we've got another 12 years of these programs we'll have more then that time period of a more conservative policy. Again, not overly worried everything is cyclic and getting outraged that after ~12 years of pretty conservative government you go strongly leftist for only 4 is a very historic sort of reaction. It's how the American people have always been. You can say that these sort of policies never would've passed in the past and that's likely true but times change and some of the excesses will no doubt be chipped away by coming elections.
Are Americans really Apathetic or simply trained in ways to think its not worth knowing? Don't forget Progressives have been working to change our education methods and system since well Woodrow Wilson. But we didn't get the serious Liberal bias until the late 1970's when the Department of Education became its Federal own entity.

The last Small Government President we had in the White House was Ronald Reagan. Both members of the Bush family were Progressive Republicans just like John McCain. With the belief that they can make laws to make people moral. You know the Mind set that gave us Prohibition.

George Washington in his Farewell Address warned that the Party System would kill our fledgeling Republic.
Allow the parties instead of individuals to set the merits of an election and they simply have to convince people they are a little better than the snake currently biting you. Something to think about.


Lessons that have not been taught in 50 or so years outside of college
frice2000 wrote:You think Colleges teach...Yeah they don't. They teach the same exact same biased material as public schools. That stranglehold on education lessens as the 60's and 70's radicals die or retire but yeah you're going to have 30+ years of very liberally educated kids who refuse to consider any other perspective but there own. Look at popular culture. Again it's all cyclic and things will change I'm not overly concerned though it does frustrate me to be in said environment.
Colleges do still teach. Obama him self taught Saul Alinsky's material in a Constitution course. That doesn't mean they are teaching anything that actually still prepares people for life in the real world. And like the earlier DoE complaint you can watch the records of Graduation finals each university keeps and see that the Performance fall off surprisingly coincides to the year.

Fully agree on getting USA's nose out of the rest of the world's business. We unfortunately can not do that without disbanding the UN.
frice2000 wrote:No. The US can't remove itself from the worlds problems. We do that and other countries who will not at all have our interests at heart step in. The UN is a pretty useless diplomatic organization yes, but military alliances like NATO and nuclear weapons are the reasons we've had such minor wars since the 40's. Dropping out does not make us invulnerable and that's the only thing I've ever really agreed with more classically liberal policies on. The world effects us greatly, and plans to assist other countries in growing healthily benefits us as well.
You do know what the NA in NATO stand for right? North Atlantic. Its not meant to go across the equator. Its not meant to go up the Mediterranean Sea and it sure as heck is not meant to go anywhere outside of North America and Europe. It is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Not the World's Security Guards. It is not part of the UN even though they try to use it all the time as if it were.

Want to know the real reason we have had no true wars since the 40's? After the final fires of WWII were put out the world was afraid of Nukes and they decided on a plan called Tragedy and Hope. They took all the gold from all the nations on Earth and put it into Fort Knox and replaced it with US Dollars as a Reserve Currency to tie the worlds economies together. So a war that destroys any nation ends up hurting the economies of every nation. Mutually Assured Economic Destruction.


Hope I didn't offend you or come across harsh in any of this.
frice2000 wrote:Oh I'm pretty sure most saw that your initial source quotation came from Glenn Beck and automatically were offended. While I'm not on the left politically in the slightest other then a smattering of purely social concerns I'm not a big fan of him either. There are more entertaining and educated hosts on the right then him. What I wouldn't give for WABC to bring back Curtis and Kuby in the morning that was such a nicely balanced interesting show with two personalities on purely divided sides on almost every issue but they didn't just scream at each other for 5 hours a day and actually had reasonable conversations something I wish was replicated in the media in general. But sadly no, people like Glen Beck and Sean Hannity are the ones who succeed in the world. While I find people like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter occasionally humorous and witty Beck strikes me as purely stirring the pot and slinging mud with little intellect behind it (and yes I've read his work).

Anyway, could write pages on this, but really not the forum to do so and I'm not getting paid for doing so...So I'll refrain.
Would you believe even with all I say and my positions clearly being in line with allot of conservatives I am still Registered as and consider myself to be a Democrat. The thing is looking at the history of the party over all I'm sitting where the middle was before Reagan. How disturbing is that?
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby frice2000 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:20 am

Have you checked out what the FCC has been doing since last December. Be careful what you don't look for it may bite you.

Oh I know they want to regulate it. I have to pay tax to have an item shipped to New York now over Amazon for example which will drastically stifle adoption. Still, even if they ban physical goods the potential for easy access to virtual goods, ideas, and entertainment that it provides is amazing. Look at Kindle books for example, some of the best selling authors are self-published with no publishing house behind them they're succeeding entirely on their own merit and sales techniques. Things like that are just going to grow and become more and more numerous. Television will likely become more and more internet centralized and actual channels will likely be dead in 30 years or so, with simple content creators making most of the content. The landscape of pretty much everything is changing and I truly doubt the FCC will be able to regulate it enough to kill it.

And have you noticed that since Obama effectively bought GM their profits have not gotten above their expenses.

Ah...Wait you saying the Chevy Volt is a bad car? No way, electrical cars that if widely adopted kill the power grid and simply move the fossil fuel requirement to the power plant from the car make PERFECT sense. It boggles my mind why Obama didn't use some of his political capital to make a very sane change to our car policy. Simply state that in 10 years all cars sold must get 35MPG or better increasing by a 5MPG standard every 5 years from that point. Eventually we'll move from gasoline to an alternative fuel source which will HAVE to be ready by then. At the same time invest in research grants for hydrogen fuel cells or making RTG's safer, creating jobs and stimulating the economy while still providing your green initiatives. Oh RTG's why are you so misunderstood? Why radiation? Why do you have to hurt us? Imagine a world where advanced RTG's powered everything. NEVER needing to refuel a car, charge a cell phone, change a battery, pay a power company, where every home has a piece of plutonium sitting inside slowly degrading inside a thick lead shell supplying a ready source of power for 80 years. You'd just walk into any local drug store to buy your replacement when it runs down...That or use Mr. Fusion. Tsk radiation you disappoint me so.

Don't forget Progressives have been working to change our education methods and system

Work in the public school system. I'm aware of what it's like. It's both better and worse then what you imagine. The real thing that I try to get across is critical thinking. You give a kid that and make them question what they're taught and always look for alternative perspectives to everything you've made a excellent student and citizen regardless of how intelligent they are or what they score on a test.

You know the Mind set that gave us Prohibition.

Legislating morality is the whole point of government in the first place. Not letting people murder someone, or steal from someone, or provide for mutual defense is the very basic reason you set up government to begin with. So legislating morality generally isn't some out there concept. What you legislate needs to be selective but it isn't like this is at all new.

George Washington in his Farewell Address warned that the Party System would kill our fledgeling Republic.

And yet you can't destroy what a party system represents. People will group together and share resources to get their opinions across. That's human nature. You couldn't stop the party system then and in fact I think it provides a far more stabilizing influence and actually results in more legislation being passed since without such programs that wouldn't benefit one specific state would've never been passed unless party deals were made and that is simply one example.

and they simply have to convince people they are a little better than the snake currently biting you

Yes, but being beholden to no one in an election creates a lot more chaos, turn over, and out and out extremism. That's not the healthiest thing for a country either.

You do know what the NA in NATO stand for right? North Atlantic. Its not meant to go across the equator. Its not meant to go up the Mediterranean Sea and it sure as heck is not meant to go anywhere outside of North America and Europe. It is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Not the World's Security Guards. It is not part of the UN

Meh, original intentions of an military alliance don't matter in today's world. And besides I'd posit NATO as what a healthy UN would actually be. Things get done, there are objectives, and when they aren't being used poorly by civilians (see UN) NATO works quite well. I do wish the organization was a tad more selective but having a combined military force with our closest allies makes perfect sense. Joint weapons platform development also makes sense and shares the costs as well. And yes it is, for better or worse NATO is the world's security guards. That isn't new either the most dominant nations in a region have always tried to maintain trade and accord among nations in whatever fashion. I imagine if NATO still exists in a thousand years it'll be very funny to learn that the initial acronym comes from one planets Ocean in a location they've never visited.

had no true wars since the 40's? After the final fires of WWII were put out the world was afraid of Nukes and they decided on a plan called Tragedy and Hope.

Nah. Economy isn't what kept the world out of wars. It was nuclear weapons. Really it could be possible a thousand years from now that nuclear weapons are looked back on as the best and most stabilizing wartime invention ever. What Gatling tried to do with a gun these weapons have done. You want a war? Fine...everyone dies. Of course it only takes one mistake to kill everyone but if that doesn't happen they are an invention that's saved innumerable lives and may very well usher in a world with no more massive wars.

I am still Registered as and consider myself to be a Democrat. The thing is looking at the history of the party over all I'm sitting where the middle was before Reagan.

Heh, you don't have a party then since what the closest party to you is Libertarians? Likely both current political parties will fold or evolve into very different shapes since both are listening a bit too much to their respective kooks. My kooks usually are knitting something muttering about me not being saved because I don't go to church while the other side yells at me for being an intolerant bigot simply due to political affiliation. I'll take the knitting folks even though they sometimes go a little too crazy, but then the opposition side is usually more crazy then I'm comfortable with. To truly fit in though I need more guns. I only have two and a few inert tank shell models...Got to get more, oh wait I live in New York and even the inert tank shells need to be licensed damn it >.<.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:34 am

Speaking of parties... I think they're stupid. Not just as a concept, but in practice, too. Especially since their definitions are liable to change, or how unlikely every single tenet is to match your beliefs unless you allow the label to wear you instead of you it.

In particular, I have an issue with herd mentality/mob mentality/sheeple (whatever you want to call it), which I attribute as a common production and/or byproduct of parties. I don't care for anything that imposes or inspires the need to think less for oneself and to let someone else do more of the thinking for you. I'm pretty sure that they're supposed to be representing our ideas and beliefs, not us representing theirs.

Would you believe even with all I say and my positions clearly being in line with allot of conservatives I am still Registered as and consider myself to be a Democrat. The thing is looking at the history of the party over all I'm sitting where the middle was before Reagan. How disturbing is that?

Well, Reagan did say that the democratic party left him, not the other way around.

Hope I didn't offend you or come across harsh in any of this.

And, no, you didn't offend me. I have no reason to argue against something as if I completely know what I'm talking about, which I know I don't. Obviously taxation is more complicated than simply seeing the numbers and expecting them to read as such. But I've heard from both sides of the political spectrum -- on many occasions -- that the tax rate on the rich is less. However, since I don't like taxes, despite the amount of times I heard it, the details never really stuck; I'm mostly left with the impression. I'm not even sure what taxes were being referred to. All I know is that it's two numbers, one applied to the wealthy and another that isn't. It could be an average of multiple progressive rates for all I know.

Concerning something Frice brought up: mind you, I was tempted to say a lot of "bad things" about Beck in my first post, but I didn't see what the point would be in this context. I just don't like people who try to manipulate others like he does, especially since many of the ideas he tries to spread to others would likely inspire them to support people who -- in my opinion -- will do the country more harm than good. I see him like I do most televangelists, and if you recall how I believe that prayer is all anyone needs to communicate with God (a middleman to Him is ridiculous, isn't it?), you can probably imagine why. That's what I'm hoping for, at any rate.

Your view on Capitalism is why I feel you are a socialist.

What is my view? Also: how can I be a socialist if I don't even know (mostly because I forget) exactly what that portends? Whenever I do bother to look it up, what I remember is disagreement on some of its basic tenets. And I often hear it summarized as "share the wealth." Either way, labeling is cheap and dirty, and you should know better considering we agree on plenty of non-socialist ideas; whatever they happen to be. I just know they're not because you'd likely not support them if they were. ;p

But I'll tell you my view on capitalism. It's the profit portion of it that I detest the existence of. Most modern capitalists -- as far as I see it -- place their focus on profit, so I know it's not the true face of capitalism. But it's still the reality of what it is right now, at least to me. I believe in trade, in equal give and take. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. What goes up, must come down. The problem with profit is that, unlike in nature, it's only when there's too little that there is any real problem. (But, even then, a person could live without it under the right circumstances.) Having too much is a target of theft, but there are ways to defend against it. Otherwise, there's no real consequence to having far more money than one needs. It's not like breathing in too much oxygen, which becomes harmful -- even deadly -- instead of being life and health-sustaining as usual. I believe in balance. Capitalism, even in its ideal form, is not balanced. Profit is extra. It tells me that someone got more out of the deal than the other person did. But that may just be me. I blame the dictionary.

Of course, you probably know that it's more than mere profit that I dislike. Though I don't see how disliking currency makes me a socialist, either. I mean, obviously, mankind had to get this far without using currency. Heck, even trade. I don't see what's wrong with one person helping another, and vice versa. And if I recall correctly, Jesus endorsed helping people in need without expecting something in return. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Seems simple enough. Besides, we help each other unofficially, anyway. We just use money as an impetus or as an excuse to do it. Because money, being an object, can make people lose sight of what's really important. And money isn't. It's only important because we believe it is. In the same way we believe that the dollar has any real value.

Also: is taxation a form of socialism? People are forced to chip in money for various things concerning both few, many and all people.

I don't think a Revolution can give us anything better than we currently have unless it is well informed and educated with all the lessons we had in our first Revolution.

Don't be so pessimistic. That's my job. ;p

Voluntary Tax would never work.

Where there's a will there's a way. It certainly wouldn't work with how the system currently stands, but in a more pristine republic and democracy there shouldn't be any reason for it not to work. I think we're more than technologically advanced enough. And if people don't put enough funds into something important, and it blows up in their face, they'll get an abject lesson in priorities. After all, it'd be hard to fund a war if you can't work due to being sickened by water that hadn't been purified. It'd be a good way to keep people focused on the needs of their community and the country as a whole. Jesus also had something to say about that. Something about noticing a small something in someone else's eye but not the big something in their own eye; one needs to first take care of the object in their own eye before they address that of another's.

Did you know that right now Federal Regulations currently in place and supposedly in force by character count is 3 times more text than the total printed works collected in the library of Congress. Before the Obama Administration it was only 1/2 by character count the total printed material of the library. I think we have room to do allot of cutting.

I wasn't particularly aware of that, no. I'm not against cutting regulations, but they shouldn't be taken too far. Any person or entity who commits a crime should have to account for it, so certain regulations should stay in place. But whenever I hear about the kind of deregulation this or that person wants, it sounds like the kind of stuff that would allow said people and entities to act with impunity at the expense of the average citizen.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Spokavriel » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:10 am

Please stop assuming that everything I say means total extremes. I'll go back through with responses on individual things after I wake up a bit more. Its 7:10 here and I woke up not recognizing the room. My memory was that far still asleep. So yeah after my memory wakes up.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:28 pm

I didn't intentionally assume anything, as I tried to address the various topics in general than saying "you" this and "you" that. The only time it's even applicable is when I said:

Either way, labeling is cheap and dirty, and you should know better considering we agree on plenty of non-socialist ideas; whatever they happen to be. I just know they're not because you'd likely not support them if they were. ;p

And was I wrong? I'll assume you'll tell me when your memory wakes up. :P

And I can ask you to stop assuming things of me, too. I don't care for capitalism, so what else can I be but a pure and unfiltered socialist, right? Makes perfect sense.

...Or does it?

BRAIN FREEZE! @_@

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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Spokavriel » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:46 pm

Have you checked out what the FCC has been doing since last December. Be careful what you don't look for it may bite you.
frice2000 wrote:Oh I know they want to regulate it. I have to pay tax to have an item shipped to New York now over Amazon for example which will drastically stifle adoption. Still, even if they ban physical goods the potential for easy access to virtual goods, ideas, and entertainment that it provides is amazing. Look at Kindle books for example, some of the best selling authors are self-published with no publishing house behind them they're succeeding entirely on their own merit and sales techniques. Things like that are just going to grow and become more and more numerous. Television will likely become more and more internet centralized and actual channels will likely be dead in 30 years or so, with simple content creators making most of the content. The landscape of pretty much everything is changing and I truly doubt the FCC will be able to regulate it enough to kill it.
The problem is that everything that has been put in place by Cass Sunsteen in this direction. No matter how little or how much the FCC really wants to do Cass is putting in place policies, without congressional approval or oversight, that effectively puts all responsibility even for other nations activities that contact US computers into their hands. Including quite a few "fines" for different data types transferred. You know fun stuff that can make it so that if it does ever get enforced you can go to jail for 15 years for using a curse word. Not too surprising seeing how this is the same man who wanted to make it so farm animals could sue their owners.

Another fun rant but other than the laughs no real reaction on your GM rant.


Don't forget Progressives have been working to change our education methods and system
frice2000 wrote:Work in the public school system. I'm aware of what it's like. It's both better and worse then what you imagine. The real thing that I try to get across is critical thinking. You give a kid that and make them question what they're taught and always look for alternative perspectives to everything you've made a excellent student and citizen regardless of how intelligent they are or what they score on a test.
Good thing to teach. But I'm not sure it can be worse than I am aware of. I know teachers who have been fired for trying to teach critical thinking. I also know people who have had their spouse killed trying to say hi to their spouses student, 1 block off campus. I even know but won't name a school that was closed down because the rooms that use to be a shop class were being used for the manufacture of both Methamphetamine and automatic weapons. Not too far across the border into California. Oh and fun news for me they are letting their prisoners out of prison.

You know the Mind set that gave us Prohibition.
frice2000 wrote:Legislating morality is the whole point of government in the first place. Not letting people murder someone, or steal from someone, or provide for mutual defense is the very basic reason you set up government to begin with. So legislating morality generally isn't some out there concept. What you legislate needs to be selective but it isn't like this is at all new.
I think you missed my point. Michelle Obama is currently doing just about the same thing proposed in one of McCain's plans to make people healthier. The goal is to control your actions. Even to the point of your activities in your own bedroom. There use to be a time when Democrats at least understood you draw the line when no one is getting injured. Michelle believes letting anyone make any choice on their own health is harming them through not acting. Guess what All members of the Bush Family, the Clintons, and even more than half of the known conservatives believe the same thing. Expressed through actions and policies passed into ordinances.

George Washington in his Farewell Address warned that the Party System would kill our fledgeling Republic.
frice2000 wrote:And yet you can't destroy what a party system represents. People will group together and share resources to get their opinions across. That's human nature. You couldn't stop the party system then and in fact I think it provides a far more stabilizing influence and actually results in more legislation being passed since without such programs that wouldn't benefit one specific state would've never been passed unless party deals were made and that is simply one example.
That was why it was a warning. A caution. He knew it was going to happen. Heck the amendment that made it possible under the constitution was the 12th one. Made all the way back in 1803. It only took a year to ratify it. The warning is not so much saying we should not have parties it is saying we should take the time to know the people in spite of any parties that arise! The Party system was there only 8 years after his address.

and they simply have to convince people they are a little better than the snake currently biting you
frice2000 wrote:Yes, but being beholden to no one in an election creates a lot more chaos, turn over, and out and out extremism. That's not the healthiest thing for a country either.
All the parties do is make it easier to make assumptions. You assume that people of a party are a certain way. Instead of taking the time to actually know your representative and make an informed choice. If you let yourself make the assumption you deserve the bite you get.

had no true wars since the 40's? After the final fires of WWII were put out the world was afraid of Nukes and they decided on a plan called Tragedy and Hope.
frice2000 wrote:Nah. Economy isn't what kept the world out of wars. It was nuclear weapons. Really it could be possible a thousand years from now that nuclear weapons are looked back on as the best and most stabilizing wartime invention ever. What Gatling tried to do with a gun these weapons have done. You want a war? Fine...everyone dies. Of course it only takes one mistake to kill everyone but if that doesn't happen they are an invention that's saved innumerable lives and may very well usher in a world with no more massive wars.
This is far from the easiest thing to explain. But do a bit of research and ask yourself why the documented history shows all the member nations of the UN and more than a dozen more giving all their gold reserves to USA when Fort Knox was being built. Find the book Tragedy and Hope. It was written about this strategy. If Nukes were such a strong threat then how come the entire world didn't instantly start a war on USA to end the threat as soon as Russia fell? I could tell you allot but don't want to type it all and if you do the research yourself it will be easier to accept the truth of the matter.

I am still Registered as and consider myself to be a Democrat. The thing is looking at the history of the party over all I'm sitting where the middle was before Reagan.
frice2000 wrote:Heh, you don't have a party then since what the closest party to you is Libertarians? Likely both current political parties will fold or evolve into very different shapes since both are listening a bit too much to their respective kooks. My kooks usually are knitting something muttering about me not being saved because I don't go to church while the other side yells at me for being an intolerant bigot simply due to political affiliation. I'll take the knitting folks even though they sometimes go a little too crazy, but then the opposition side is usually more crazy then I'm comfortable with. To truly fit in though I need more guns. I only have two and a few inert tank shell models...Got to get more, oh wait I live in New York and even the inert tank shells need to be licensed damn it >.<.
My suggestion Get out of NY. But I'd give that advice to anyone living in the Empire State. I don't own any guns but I am an NRA member. You don't have to be conservative to like weaponry.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Speaking of parties... I think they're stupid. Not just as a concept, but in practice, too. Especially since their definitions are liable to change, or how unlikely every single tenet is to match your beliefs unless you allow the label to wear you instead of you it.
I feel safe to say that George Washington would agree with you.

Would you believe even with all I say and my positions clearly being in line with allot of conservatives I am still Registered as and consider myself to be a Democrat. The thing is looking at the history of the party over all I'm sitting where the middle was before Reagan. How disturbing is that?
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Well, Reagan did say that the democratic party left him, not the other way around.
Yep and when it left him it ended up co-opted by allot of people who were seeing how many STD's they could rack up in Woodstock.

Hope I didn't offend you or come across harsh in any of this.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And, no, you didn't offend me. I have no reason to argue against something as if I completely know what I'm talking about, which I know I don't. Obviously taxation is more complicated than simply seeing the numbers and expecting them to read as such. But I've heard from both sides of the political spectrum -- on many occasions -- that the tax rate on the rich is less. However, since I don't like taxes, despite the amount of times I heard it, the details never really stuck; I'm mostly left with the impression. I'm not even sure what taxes were being referred to. All I know is that it's two numbers, one applied to the wealthy and another that isn't. It could be an average of multiple progressive rates for all I know.
Tax rates for anyone not pennyless being lower is a lie. The core design of progressive income tax is to tax the people who earn more the most. That has NEVER changed. Exceptions to taxes that have been made were most often made to make it so businesses could survive the taxes. Or people with barely enough money could afford to get a house at all seeing how the tax for owning the property, before the exception, doubled the monthly cost of home ownership. And made it so only people who earned the current value of $500,000 a year could actually afford to have a home. Wow so rich twice what Obama is calling rich to even afford to live without renting. I know its unfair he has devalued the dollar allot but still that is where the numbers are now.

Your view on Capitalism is why I feel you are a socialist.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:What is my view? Also: how can I be a socialist if I don't even know (mostly because I forget) exactly what that portends? Whenever I do bother to look it up, what I remember is disagreement on some of its basic tenets. And I often hear it summarized as "share the wealth." Either way, labeling is cheap and dirty, and you should know better considering we agree on plenty of non-socialist ideas; whatever they happen to be. I just know they're not because you'd likely not support them if they were. ;p

But I'll tell you my view on capitalism. It's the profit portion of it that I detest the existence of. Most modern capitalists -- as far as I see it -- place their focus on profit, so I know it's not the true face of capitalism. But it's still the reality of what it is right now, at least to me. I believe in trade, in equal give and take. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. What goes up, must come down. The problem with profit is that, unlike in nature, it's only when there's too little that there is any real problem. (But, even then, a person could live without it under the right circumstances.) Having too much is a target of theft, but there are ways to defend against it. Otherwise, there's no real consequence to having far more money than one needs. It's not like breathing in too much oxygen, which becomes harmful -- even deadly -- instead of being life and health-sustaining as usual. I believe in balance. Capitalism, even in its ideal form, is not balanced. Profit is extra. It tells me that someone got more out of the deal than the other person did. But that may just be me. I blame the dictionary.

Of course, you probably know that it's more than mere profit that I dislike. Though I don't see how disliking currency makes me a socialist, either. I mean, obviously, mankind had to get this far without using currency. Heck, even trade. I don't see what's wrong with one person helping another, and vice versa. And if I recall correctly, Jesus endorsed helping people in need without expecting something in return. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Seems simple enough. Besides, we help each other unofficially, anyway. We just use money as an impetus or as an excuse to do it. Because money, being an object, can make people lose sight of what's really important. And money isn't. It's only important because we believe it is. In the same way we believe that the dollar has any real value.

Also: is taxation a form of socialism? People are forced to chip in money for various things concerning both few, many and all people.
Please one day take the time to read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Angels. Your entire quote here comes from a basic socialist assumption. That all the parts, and not the sum of the parts, must be equal. Profit comes from people taking the time to do something in place of another person doing it themselves. Saving that other person time. When you are good at what you do you find you can do that thing fast enough you can save allot of people time. And the money is the compensation for the time you spent doing it. It is not Equal but both the producer and the purchaser exchange the product for the money which is there as the stand in for the value of the time saved. You know while you are at it please look for any book on Economics made before 1900. Any one. Between the Communist manifesto and any book on Economics printed before people started distorting the facts it should be allot easier to see why your entire description of equal and value in the quote is heavily socialist.

Even Christ said Give unto Caesar that which is Caesars. Money is part of a society and follows the society's rules. That doesn't mean you can't be charitable all you want but it is not the Government's place to do charity for you.


I don't think a Revolution can give us anything better than we currently have unless it is well informed and educated with all the lessons we had in our first Revolution.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Don't be so pessimistic. That's my job. ;p
I thought I was just being honest about it.

Voluntary Tax would never work.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Where there's a will there's a way. It certainly wouldn't work with how the system currently stands, but in a more pristine republic and democracy there shouldn't be any reason for it not to work. I think we're more than technologically advanced enough. And if people don't put enough funds into something important, and it blows up in their face, they'll get an abject lesson in priorities. After all, it'd be hard to fund a war if you can't work due to being sickened by water that hadn't been purified. It'd be a good way to keep people focused on the needs of their community and the country as a whole. Jesus also had something to say about that. Something about noticing a small something in someone else's eye but not the big something in their own eye; one needs to first take care of the object in their own eye before they address that of another's.
The only way for it to work would require a change in human nature. I personally would prefer to try to keep policy into something that humans can achieve without having to depend in such a change.

Did you know that right now Federal Regulations currently in place and supposedly in force by character count is 3 times more text than the total printed works collected in the library of Congress. Before the Obama Administration it was only 1/2 by character count the total printed material of the library. I think we have room to do allot of cutting.
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I wasn't particularly aware of that, no. I'm not against cutting regulations, but they shouldn't be taken too far. Any person or entity who commits a crime should have to account for it, so certain regulations should stay in place. But whenever I hear about the kind of deregulation this or that person wants, it sounds like the kind of stuff that would allow said people and entities to act with impunity at the expense of the average citizen.
I fully agree. One of the biggest problems in America today is that people are not getting the full sentences for the crimes they commit. I mentioned California earlier. They are letting Murderers walk because they have not killed enough people at once. They say it is because of prison crowding. And yet they have a Prison officials union that is preventing them from making or more accurately staffing any new prisons.

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:I didn't intentionally assume anything, as I tried to address the various topics in general than saying "you" this and "you" that. The only time it's even applicable is when I said:
Either way, labeling is cheap and dirty, and you should know better considering we agree on plenty of non-socialist ideas; whatever they happen to be. I just know they're not because you'd likely not support them if they were. ;p
Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And was I wrong? I'll assume you'll tell me when your memory wakes up. :P
Long morning. Ever have a day where things happen and don't give you time to think?

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:And I can ask you to stop assuming things of me, too. I don't care for capitalism, so what else can I be but a pure and unfiltered socialist, right? Makes perfect sense.

...Or does it?

BRAIN FREEZE! @_@

:wink:
Cute but I was trying to point out that your views on capitalism are those that are repeatedly and strongly socialist. Nothing wrong with it so long as you don't go to the Whacky extreme of world domination where socialist policies end up with people starving to death or executed for actions against the state. Socialism on small scale such as a single town or smaller is not in any way that I can find a bad thing. Every time it gets bigger than that though people get hurt.
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Re: Saw some inspirational words.

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:42 pm

Spockie wrote:Please one day take the time to read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Angels. Your entire quote here comes from a basic socialist assumption. That all the parts, and not the sum of the parts, must be equal. Profit comes from people taking the time to do something in place of another person doing it themselves. Saving that other person time. When you are good at what you do you find you can do that thing fast enough you can save allot of people time. And the money is the compensation for the time you spent doing it. It is not Equal but both the producer and the purchaser exchange the product for the money which is there as the stand in for the value of the time saved. You know while you are at it please look for any book on Economics made before 1900. Any one. Between the Communist manifesto and any book on Economics printed before people started distorting the facts it should be allot easier to see why your entire description of equal and value in the quote is heavily socialist.

Even Christ said Give unto Caesar that which is Caesars. Money is part of a society and follows the society's rules. That doesn't mean you can't be charitable all you want but it is not the Government's place to do charity for you.

I'm not much of a reader, sorry to say. XD;;

As for the part I underlined: that's not what I was saying. There's a distinct difference between balance and equality. Equality assumes that everything should be the same, whereas balance can be found in differences complementing one another. I mean, not everyone can be doctors, because there are so many other things that people need to do in order to sustain both themselves, others and their society. The problem I have with profit is that it places more importance on certain jobs and devalues others, making it so some people make an insane amount of money while many others will be lucky to live off of what they make. No, I'm not saying anything even remotely close to every job, regardless of what it is, should pay the exact same wages. What I am saying is that the differences shouldn't be so extreme, so a living wage could in reality actually be enough to live on, while the high income jobs (even when lowered) still bring in a lot no matter what it's compared to.

As far as I understand it socialism places its focus on public ownership and management, right? I'm not into that. I'm very much into anything that allows someone to do whatever they want to do, so long as they don't do it to someone else without their consent. Perhaps the only exception would be in regard to keeping the air breathable, the land bearable, and the water drinkable (which I think is fairly understandable). Beyond that, I don't really care. Only a fool would try to run a state or country perfectly in the hopes that it never dies, no matter what their idea of perfection is. If I had a motto, it'd be: hang on loosely, but don't let go. I wouldn't want to leave something to its own devices entirely, but neither would I want to control it so much that it gets choked to death.

As for what Jesus said about giving unto Caesar what is his, that's not a good example, in part because there's more to the context that makes Jesus' statement ambiguous. For one, what he said is thought to be a safe answer to the question of whether Jews should pay taxes to Caesar, as it was answer enough but not one whose meaning could be divined absolutely one way or another. In particular, that Jesus includes God in his answer (who owns everything, basically, and thus any Caesar) might mean that it was the will of God that allowed Rome to rule Judea as a province. Because saying anything more than Caesar would have been redundant. But that is not really here nor there. I think my answer to mandatory taxation will be made here:

The only way for it to work would require a change in human nature. I personally would prefer to try to keep policy into something that humans can achieve without having to depend in such a change.

Ah, human nature. The crux of all of our problems. Well, when you put it that way, sure: the greedy, inconsiderate animal that is humanity probably wouldn't be able to handle a voluntary tax system, much less be able to implement one. But, hey, I try to be optimistic about some things. I just have a problem with people being forced to give some of the money they've earned to people who play around with it, is all. Because I don't see how that's any different from the days of "olde," if you know what I mean.

Long morning. Ever have a day where things happen and don't give you time to think?

I can't say that I can think of such a morning... Generally, if I wake up, I try to get back to sleep. If I can't sleep, I try to stay in bed. I rinse and repeat until I'm not making any progress and I become too bored to stay in bed any longer. Such are the days of a person who has no life.

Cute but I was trying to point out that your views on capitalism are those that are repeatedly and strongly socialist. Nothing wrong with it so long as you don't go to the Whacky extreme of world domination where socialist policies end up with people starving to death or executed for actions against the state. Socialism on small scale such as a single town or smaller is not in any way that I can find a bad thing. Every time it gets bigger than that though people get hurt.

Well, hopefully I've changed your mind about me being strongly socialist. If not, I say we should take the subject someplace else and compare basic ideas to see where we truly differ on these matters. Beyond that, I'm not a socialist simply because I say so. Oh-ho! Well, 'cause I think such labels are stupid and tend to dump baggage on people that don't apply to them. Just as an example, if someone called me a socialist because one-tenth of my policy applies, while nine-tenths is antistupidism, I'm seen as a complete socialist anyway because that's the only part that's being focused on. That kind of character assassination happens a lot in the mainstream media these days.

I mean, if I had it my way, I'd be a dictator. Mwa-ha-ha! :D (The rare benevolent and not-so-controlling kind, of course. :wink: )
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