Self Posting in Update List

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Self Posting in Update List

Postby Sunshine Temple » Sat May 02, 2009 5:01 pm

This is whether or not someone should be able to post an update to their own fic in the Update List.


Presumably this could extend to posting about one's own fic in fic search and other update threads.


The problem seems that there was an informal rule to prevent self promotion, and excessive author "spam". That is an author frequently releasing small chapters and thus giving daily posts on the thread, dominating it.

So the question is should there be a self promotion allowed or not.

As the update thread is more of a construct there can be a discussion on the conventions.

I'm not against formalizing and restricting more the update thread.

Thoughts?

Update: Kadunta and others have found a previous ruling. Here

So this is something that was never formally setup (and written into the rules).
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Postby yasuhei » Sat May 02, 2009 5:16 pm

I'm very much in favor of restricting or banning self promotion in the update thread.

Its one of the few places around that I find has relatively decent fic suggestions, and I hate to see that watered down by people posting their own stuff. I still remember a time where i could go through multiple pages of the thread, only to find that the vast vast vast majority of it was rubbish, often posted by the authors of the fics itself.

I do understand that this is a forum, not some formal vetting board, but is it really asking so much if we require the fic be good enough that at least one person other than the author finds it good enough to worth mentioning on the list?



It's also completely unnecessary, given that there is an entire CC section where authors are freely able to post their own material.

'But less people look there' Why yes, that's true. And the reason less people look there, I imagine, is that we want fics that are liked and suggested by someone more impartial than their authors.

If its just a list of fics submitted by authors then what separates this list from fanfiction.net or any other archive?



On a less objective note, seeing someone post their own material on such lists always strikes me as quite arrogant, and always annoys me.
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Postby Nekomata-sensei » Sat May 02, 2009 5:36 pm

I agree with yasuhei. Self-promotion just looks weird, it reminds me of those stories that insist on getting a certain number of reviews before writing another chapter. It sits really awkwardly with me.

It might be hard to stop them however, but maybe there could be a 2nd updates type thread, one where authors here can post up new stories or new completed chapters, while the original updates thread could be restricted to someone who isn't the author who likes the story.
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Postby Ranchi » Sat May 02, 2009 5:38 pm

i just think its okay to post your own fic in the update llist if you know its a popular fic and seen others post to tell there is an update it but you shouldt post it to tell if thers an update if your not sure how popular it is you shouldt post till your more sure
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Postby Spokavriel » Sat May 02, 2009 5:40 pm

I actually like seeing something pointing out the new chapter. The actual author knows it is out before anyone has time to read it.

I only end up having a problem with something like that when there are daily trash updates or the same update gets mentioned in every possible place they can think someone would be interested about it in.

Maybe having two update threads one where authors post their own link.. But then allot of fics would likely end up posted in both. Just not by the same people.

Edit: Something that Irked me the other day someone posted a link to a New Oneshot in the "Updates" Thread. How can any NEW story be an update? That seemed wrong for some reason.
Last edited by Spokavriel on Sat May 02, 2009 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LawOhki » Sat May 02, 2009 5:41 pm

Well it's in the name, Update, as long as the author isn't spamming, personal taste shouldn't factor into it. It saves the author from having to create a new thread which even more screams "look at me!"

A Recommend fic thread would be the place where you shouldn't be able to post your own work.
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Postby Konsaki » Sat May 02, 2009 5:45 pm

So instead of just letting an author post an update, which the entire update thread is about, he should have to wait until someone else finds it? I think that's a little wonkey if you ask me.
I can see both sides of the coin but unless someone is doing the daily spam of short chapters, which Sunshine noted, I think an author should be allowed to post their own updates. If they abuse it with short chapters and someone complains, then the mods should curtail it by whatever means they deem nessisary.

For fic requests, if someone asks for a fic criteria which the author's fic qualifies for, I think the author should also be able to bring it up.

The author shouldn't be able to create a recomendation thread soley on promoting his fic, though, since that is a form of spamming, omho.
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Postby Scooter » Sat May 02, 2009 5:48 pm

While I may write shameless self-promotion (at least in some of my stuff), I'm not a big fan of announcing it. Unless I've posted in C&C, for beta review/suggestions.

I say if it's a major update (i.e. new story, several chapters, etc), let it post in the Update List. Otherwise, it would be imprudent to have author's essentially Tweeting their stories.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sat May 02, 2009 5:51 pm

About that thing I got irked about. Couldn't there be a New Fics thread for those oneshots and new stories that have not been out a while?

Sure a One Shot can be revised and that would make it updated. But a New Oneshot or New Fic isn't the same as an update to an ongoing fic.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Sat May 02, 2009 6:04 pm

I think self-promotion should be allowed for a specific, understandable reason. For instance, if so much time has passed that no one here would be aware of it. If you update one of your stories, but don't see anyone point it out after a few days, then, by all means, bring it to their attention. They might just appreciate knowing about it, if they liked it but eventually lost track of it because of the lack of updates.
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Postby Stacy » Sat May 02, 2009 6:08 pm

It's my opinion that authors should be allowed to post notifications of their own works in the Update List thread.

If someone wants to have a list of recommended updates, that's fine too. But it needs to be called that. Recommended Updates List. There's nothing in the title Update List to convey that the updates posted therein are of any specific quality.

I propose that a Recommended Updates thread is created, given specific rules about how to format posts, and that people wishing to find links to quality fanfiction simply check that topic, as opposed to the Update List. And I propose that the Update List thread is left in its current state.
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Postby Daniel Jess Gibson » Sat May 02, 2009 6:12 pm

I always thought it was an unwritten rule that authors weren't to post their updates on the update list and were frowned up citing their own works in the Fic Searches.

It does serve as a filter, if someone likes a fic, they can share the updates. The drek (or a fic that becomes drek) never is or ceases to be mentioned.

Formalizing that it would be forbidden in Updates and frowned up on fic searches would pose no hardship and seems reasonable.
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Postby Sunshine Temple » Sat May 02, 2009 6:45 pm

Personally I feel that self posting is a bit presumptuous. It's also true that there are cases where the writer has ample reason to post an update to their story.


It should be noted that there is nothing stopping a reader from making a new update thread and applying whaterver restrictions they want. For example: "Updates for Genderbent Lain fics over 100,000 words"

The problem here is that the Update List thread has gone on for so long, and had its original post lost, that the conventions for it are not written in stone.

And Spok is quite right. A new fic thread is a real good idea. Which in that one the posts are only a new fic.

I think Scooter nailed the core of the problem here.

I say if it's a major update (i.e. new story, several chapters, etc), let it post in the Update List. Otherwise, it would be imprudent to have author's essentially Tweeting their stories.


That's what I think is objectionable. This situation arose in 2007 because a writer was posting near daily updates on their own fic, which was essentially spaming the thread

I'm thinking a writer can post an update to their own stories under these conditions
1) New fic.
2) Update to a dead fic
3) Major update.
4) Suggest the writer wait a day to see if someone else updates for them.

New fic is pretty self explanatory, and can count for when a sequel comes up. Basically, if the writer starts putting chapters in a new fic on FF.net or their website.

Dead fic, that's Crescent Pulsar's suggestion. As for how long between updates counts as dead, I'm thinking two years with no posting, but that can be adjusted.

Major update. I think this is a provision people would want. However it's quite hard to define what would count. Ideas?

For the waiting, this is just that often someone else will post your update. Not being the writer they may not post as quick as you. So that's just recommending a bit of patience, and if no one else posts, and one of the other conditions are met, then the writer can self-post.
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Postby Sky » Sat May 02, 2009 7:06 pm

Sunshine wrote:Dead fic, that's Crescent Pulsar's suggestion. As for how long between updates counts as dead, I'm thinking two years with no posting, but that can be adjusted.


Two years might be much, but stories published on sites with no RSS feed or other means of notifying readers that they've updated like FF.net updates (I'm thinking about The Shadow Chronicles here) are another possible exception.

I'd like to second the idea of a recommended list. It could be done in the same way as the Spamville Character Dossier - everyone posts once, and edits their post with links to what stories they think are awesome and a short description of why. It could link to other recommendation lists like the TV Tropes list (see the FanFic Ranting thread). I'm sure phpBB has a per post character limit, so that will prevent posters from listing 100+ stories. Make it a sticky and it might also prevent the "What are the best of the best out there" questions that are seen in Fic Search from time to time.

In short, three lists: one for updates, one for new stuff, and one sticky recommendations list.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sat May 02, 2009 7:06 pm

For a major update how about if you have a major plot advancement. Like a Critical battle or something. Or maybe you have just revised two or more chapters of the story enough to change the tone of the fic.

Edit: Sky I don't think the Author of The Shadow Chronicles posts here. And really these are restrictions on authors doing self promotion. Nothing in this as far as I have seen should really stop someone else from posting about the update.
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