The "no nesting" rule

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Postby Spokavriel » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:52 am

The worst case of nested quotes I saw was kinda weird. It had stared off with someone quoting a whole post and continued that way for a bit then the 5th person to quote added in a quote from another thread so now it was a second quote next to a nested quote getting nested which got a third out of thread source quote somewhere around the thirteenth responder. Aside from the people who added additional quotes none of the others had even completed full thoughts in their sentence in reply.
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Postby Yrael » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:32 am

Dumbledork wrote:On Hawk's Fanfiction Forum there IS sometimes and overexaggerated use of nested quotes.


Like I said...better to punish the idiots who don't know how to quote properly than punish everyone else who does by not allowing them at all.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:36 am

Ugh. Raising this old thing from the dead so I have to read it over again... You fiends!

lwf58:

Um... You didn't throw my point back at me. ^^; If you read my posts, that was only a part of it:

I wrote:Which would support a part of my argument


Which is why I added, at the end of that same post:

I wrote:I honestly don't see what's so hard about keeping nesting in check, on both sides.


If you go back and read, I'm only advocating for a middle ground. And it still supports:

lwf58 wrote:The rule is to make people think about what they are doing, because they often have to edit their response.

Because I want the rule changed, not abolished. (As stated at the beginning of my first post.) So they would still have to be aware of a limitation. And there shouldn't be a problem enforcing it because any breach of the limitation (too much nesting) would be obvious to mod/admin and user alike. It's the kind of thing that can be noticed passively. And bringing it to someone's attention shouldn't be all that difficult.

Now, what makes my statement true, about admins/mods being lazy because of the rule, is because it's indiscriminate. Everyone's being punished instead of just the ones being irresponsible. It'd be excusable if the place in question had a problem with users abusing the feature (due to laziness or not) beyond what can be managed; but that's not the case, here.

Although it's not like this place is all that active right now, anyway; so there's not much in the way of discussions/arguments that would call for it. :?

Still, at least one nest would be nice. I like tying two relevant things together, because it helps to put my response into the proper context. Though it also doesn't hurt to make quoting quicker and easier, part of the time. Have mercy on us. :(
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Postby Spokavriel » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:38 am

How is altering the position of a tag while you are writing a response that much of a hardship? I mean that's all that is needed to break up a nest, move that opening quote to after the close quote of the first quote.

There's no limit on sequential quotes so long as they don't nest. And with a highlight and drag to where it fits it corrects for the software habit to quote around all quoted text.

If anyone would make it, a module that could be aware of past quotes and open the quote after the existing one would be nice but I haven't seen anyone script that yet.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:36 pm

I never said it was a hardship. But sometimes I'd rather save time, for one reason or another. Instead of breaking a nest unnecessarily, only waste time breaking it up when necessary. Right now it's like turning on a windshield wiper when a single drop of rain lands on a windshield, rather than when it begins to accumulate to the point where the rain will begin to obstruct someone's view. And does that make sense? No; and neither does the rule.
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Postby Spokavriel » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:58 pm

So you don't turn on the wipers until you almost can't see?

I don't really like the analogy. It's too easy to get subjective and argue semantics.

I know some people on other forums who would make quote nests for artistic effect. Having that double line etc.

One thing I'm not certain about is what would happen if someone had a code box in a quote. It isn't a quote but it has an almost identical appearance.

In the end though making it a limit to supposedly keep people from getting "Carried away" leads to the potential frustration of having to check all nested quotes and see if they hit the limit or not instead of just simply being able to see that yep it's nested it's in violation.

And don't forget the argument elsewhere that there are limits "But those people before me quoted the quotes. Why aren't they in trouble too!" Just hearing that their quote of quotes hit a limit can and has elsewhere lead to resentment.
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Postby Crescent Pulsar » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:05 pm

It seems I didn't illustrate my analogy well enough to understand. What I said was that you turn the wipers on when it looks like it will accumulate enough to obstruct your view. It's easy to tell by the speed by which the rain accumulates; it has nothing to do with waiting until you can't see anything. So my analogy is fine. And still illustrates the point that turning on your wipers for a single drop of rain is retarded. Or for no rain at all, for that matter. Sure, people will otherwise still turn on their wipers at different times, under different conditions, but that doesn't mean that there's no agreeable area on when to turn them on. For instance, making one nested quote the rule. A second and third won't be punishable, but open solely for accidents and negligence, so no one thinks that three is okay and try to bend the rule from there by going with four or more.

And there's already a limit like that, so they still have to make sure that they don't leave any nests in their posts. Same situation, different reason. I mean, this isn't rocket science. We're not a bunch of immature idiots. I honestly don't see how we could be any worse off if the rule is changed to allow some nesting.

As for people being resentful over limits, that shouldn't be a problem. It wouldn't stop them from nesting, any more or less than the person before them. They would just have to make sure they don't nest over the limit, like the person before them did. It's no different than taking care of nests so there aren't any. There's nothing to argue about, here.

Now, since this arguing is just going to keep on going on a merry-go-round, I'm going to wash my hands of it. I feel like the argument I'm having is one where I'm against someone who is claiming that there's a monster in their closet, but they don't want to open the closet to prove it. Which makes it pointless for me to contest it. All I hear is "this site" and "that site", but never "our site."

But, whatever. I can live without the rule being changed. I just expect better than this.
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Postby Spokavriel » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:13 pm

I site other sites because it is other sites where I have seen problems but not here. And I like the way things are here as they already are.
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Postby Sunshine Temple » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:01 pm

Larry addressed this months ago.

lwf58 wrote:So why a ban on all nested quotes instead of just on ones that exceed a certain size or number?

That's simple. It's because it's much easier to follow and to enforce a clear-cut ban on all nested quotes than it is to try and set limits that are going to be subject to interpretation. How many are "too many"? Where's the dividing line between "this is okay" and "that isn't"?

The ban was a deliberate choice on Sunny's part to avoid the inevitable confusion a less easily understood ruling would have caused. I could discuss it with him - and I have done just that in the past - but in the end, it's really just a minor inconvenience. There are several ways to direct a reply, and quoting is only one of them.


If I had set the limits at "no nesting two deep" or no nesting within a certain word count. People would complain about having to count words or count quotes.

Or they'd complain "Why are we allowed two nests? Why not three?"

This was the most clearcut way to manage the issue.

As for clearing your post for nested quotes Take this example.

Currently the forum Allows quotes one deep.

So if you quote a post that has quotes you have to do something about the nesting.

Raising the limit of nesting doesn't alleviate that problem.

Say the forum allows 3 quotes deep.
Well if you quote a post that's already at the max, you still have to do something about it.

No matter the limit, a person can end up quoting a post that is already at the max allowed level of nested quotes.

Since it will always happen, why not set the limit at the most easy to see. Instead of counting or previewing a post to see if it's four quotes deep or three.

And a forum needs to have a rule on nesting, otherwise you'll get "I agree" "me too" and so on ten quotes deep.
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