Amaguriken

[Pale Wolf]

One of the things I noticed is that the cloud doesn't always form. It also mentions how the cloud forms under higher air pressure and higher humidity and only on steady level flight.

Fair enough.

As for not being able to create the cloud at subsonic speeds I'd like to quote the second site I listed

Agreed - his speed is sufficiently subsonic to not create a singularity.

About a plane pushing through the air that is true but it is very untrue for Ranma.

Is this about the singularity or the sonic boom remark?

Ranma's body is mostly not moving with his arm continously moving back and forth occupying the same area of space repeatedly and therefore pushing the air out of that area instead of going through new air like a plane does.

So? He'd still create at least one boom if he were moving supersonic. If he doesn't create a boom in your model, what he's done is increase the speed of the sound by reducing the air density, and still isn't going faster than the sound is. (Although he could achieve greater speeds than 1230 km/h while remaining under the local speed of sound, if he reduced the air density in such a manner - but, since it's been agreed by both sides of this debate that he's not moving at 1225+ anyway, let's leave this be)
And pushing air out of the area will increase the likelihood of a Prandtl-Glauerty singularity - it's caused by a drop in air pressure.

[nav]

Pale Wolf is correct. An example would be a fighter aircraft making a high-g maneauver such as what happens in a dog fight. Condensation will form on the wing surfaces.

[antimatterenergy]

I was not arguing that Ranma can cause a cloud since he should be able to do that (basically the effect of prandtl-glauert singularity is just froming a cloud), he would just have to lower the temperature of a large enough area of space while it is humid enough to form a cloud. Several way of doing that lower the air pressure (like planes do), cool down the air around you through other means, or heat up water until it steams. (would be a lot easier in an enclosed space such as a room.)
By my understanding, The amaguriken is unlikely to create a cloud in the immediate vicinity of Ranma even if Ranma was going fast enough to do so and it was humid enough to do so. I was reading up on turbulence. The cloud only forms in close proximity to the object because the turbulence at those speeds quickly destroy's the cloud. Ranma's pushing of the air would cause enough turbulence around Ranma to prevent the cloud from forming because the air he's pushing (would also be pushing away the water vapor as well preventing condensation from forming on Ranma) and the air trying to come back into the low pressure area (the air would be continously trying to come back to that area) would cause too much turbulence for a cloud to form in the imediate vicinity of Ranma. If Ranma was in a fog doing the amaguriken would push away the cloud.
Pale Wolf - By my theory Ranma would create one sonic boom if he started off at the speeds required to surpase the sound barrier for the area he is at. So long as he starts slower than that but still fast enough to push the air (which Ranma is cannonly fast enough to do that is after all what Kuno did to destroy the water fountain). Ranma can then speed up to any speed and there would not be a sonic boom.

[Pale Wolf]

would cause too much turbulence for a cloud to form in the imediate vicinity of Ranma.

True enough. However, if he is pushing the air away as you suggest, things are likely to get very cold in the Amaguriken's zone of effect, and it seems nobody has commented on that either.

Pale Wolf - By my theory Ranma would create one sonic boom if he started off at the speeds required to surpase the sound barrier for the area he is at. So long as he starts slower than that but still fast enough to push the air (which Ranma is cannonly fast enough to do that is after all what Kuno did to destroy the water fountain). Ranma can then speed up to any speed and there would not be a sonic boom.

Noticed that, eh? I was curious if you would.

[Climhazard]

Does anyone recall any specific instances when Ranma called out the word as an attack? I don't remember if he ever did or not.

He did it... After he learn KTA and in volume 3X.

[A.Nonymous]

Are we really expecting Takahashi to have a degree in quantum physics? This is anime here, somehow I don't expect the writers to sit down and calculate the speed at which Ranma's fists can move vs the time taken for the air displaced to return to place. I say Ranma's fist DOES create a sonic boom and the artists just didn't bother to put in the sound effects...Also, he uses his ki to redirect the shockwave into his foe just like Kuno does with his boken. You don't think Kuno gets that kind of damage from just the air displacement from the tip of his sword, do you.
Hell, does DBZ show sonic booms and vapor clouds forming around peoples fists whenever they work out? Because we all KNOW that the Z-fighters break the sound barrier every morning when the eat their rice-checks... Don't they go FTL when flying around the earth... and go back in time?
Anime physics is non-Newtonian in nature...after all, explain how the Taro or the Phoenix mountain people can fly with those itty bitty wings? Or how 15 foot tall attack crabs can lift their claws and don't crash to the ground under their own weight.

[claymade]

Hey, apologies for cutting in here; Pale Wolf and I were having a discussion regarding the Amaguriken in another thread, and we thought it best to relocate it to this one.

Only if you don't think about it. Here's the thing. The Amaguriken is not a technique. It's a training method.

Hm? Why do you say that? I went back and re-read the story arcs in the manga, and the Amaguriken is very consistently referred to as an actual technique you master, not merely a method you follow. This is by both Cologne ("Groom. Have you mastered the "Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire technique?") and Ranma ("If I can get up enough speed to catch these piranhas before they bite then I can master that Chestnut technique!")
(Not to mention that storywise, I think it makes more sense in the first place. Ranma's obviously done speed drills previous to this. Is the Amaguriken really just Cologne's way of saying "to get the pill, do even more of the same kind of thing you were already doing"? If so, it seems to be a major kind of "thanks for nothing" deal. The alternate interpretation is that there really is a distinct Amaguriken technique like she says there is, a specific, special way of achieving the speed that Ranma needs to figure out in order grab the chestnuts/fishes.)
But in any case, whether the Amaguriken is a technique or not, the thing of foremost importance is that to punch so mind-bogglingly fast, he's certainly using ki in some fashion or another to accomplish this.

Every move he makes is as easily enhanced - or more so - than that flurry of shallow punches. So he is not moving faster, he is moving at the same speed but in a different way.

How do we know it applies to every move? All the Amaguriken training we've ever seen him do has been done with his arms--how do we know that all that arm practice can be seamlessly applied to, say, the kicks he was trying to use against Ryouga?

Not at all. Doing strange things is fine, but blatant violations of force/energy equations make no sense. Those strange effects are reasonable within the world created. But a world where somehow slower, weaker strikes rack up damage quicker is just senseless.

Wait, wait, "slower, weaker"? I could see why you'd think the latter of the two, but how are the Amaguriken strikes slower? It's at least "faster, yet weaker."
Now--as you say--generally as a puncher increases the speed of his punches beyond a certain rate, the power of said punches diminishes. In the real world, you could probably model the relationship between speed and strength with an equation, and plot the curve on a graph.
The problem in the Ranma-verse is that when you throw ki into the picture, you throw an unknown factor into your equation. The power/speed tradeoff is a physiological interaction, but we don't know the precise mechanics of how ki grants speed, or just how that process interacts with the various muscle groups of the body. And thus, we don't know how it skews the curve of the power/speed graph--except by observation of how it plays out in scenarios like the Bakusai Tenketsu fight.
The crux of my issue is this: I see no reason to assume that the power dropoff rate due to ki-based speed boosting is necessarily as severe as the dropoff rate due to normal speed boosting, since we don't know how the ki does it. So it wouldn't be farfetched at all if ki-boosting your speed by (random, theoretical example) 10X might reduce your punch strength to, say, 50% of full power. That's still a gain of 5X the net force imparted into your target over the exact same time interval.
That's why I think Ranma's "jackhammer" approach can be defended.

[Pale Wolf]

How do we know it applies to every move? All the Amaguriken training we've ever seen him do has been done with his arms--how do we know that all that arm practice can be seamlessly applied to, say, the kicks he was trying to use against Ryouga?

Because as the BT arc began, he was beating the shit out of Ryouga with the fruits of the training and not calling out jack?

Wait, wait, "slower, weaker"? I could see why you'd think the latter of the two, but how are the Amaguriken strikes slower? It's at least "faster, yet weaker."
Now--as you say--generally as a puncher increases the speed of his punches beyond a certain rate, the power of said punches diminishes. In the real world, you could probably model the relationship between speed and strength with an equation, and plot the curve on a graph.

WRONG.
Not just wrong, but...
Okay, lets put this in physics terms.
The force of an object is its mass times its velocity squared. More speed equals a lot more power. You move slow, you're not going to be able to hurt anything. The rest of your argument is based off a flawed premise, and doesn't need to be countered item-by-item.
Now that we've got that out of the way. The reason why the KTA as the observed approach of shallow punches is slower and weaker.
First, lets assume it's the exact same body either way. In other words, Ranma's potential for accellerating his limbs is the exact same no matter what he's using his limbs for.
Now, when you hit someone, there are two extremely broad categories to the blow. A shallow one and a deep one.
A shallow blow essentially is used to smack the target, then 'bounce' the limb back to hit them again - this is the method used in the Katchu Tenshin Amaguriken.
A deep blow is one where you try to hit through the target, continuing to press forward. These are what I'm advocating, by the way.
Now, hit someone. Use each method. A deep blow does somewhere between five and ten times the level of pain, and has an infinitely higher chance of damaging the targets internal structures (shallow punch's chance: zero; deep punch's: not zero). So, clearly the deep blow does more damage.
And as for speed. Hit something repeatedly, using each method. You can deliver at least two deep blows in less time than it takes to get three shallow hits. That means, at minimum, dealing a ten-to-three ratio of damage, in a shorter amount of time. Certainly, an individual shallow blow is quicker, but it also doesn't actually hurt anyone, and chains of deep blows come out at similar speeds while dealing far greater damage.
Now, simple deep blows wouldn't work in the particular case of the Ranma/Ryouga fight. He's too tough, basically - a single deep blow will throw him away, but won't actually cause him significant damage. So, between a chain of deep blows and a chain of shallow blows (the observed KTA), the shallow blows, being possible, were superior.
However, if he had a grip on his opponent, the entire equation changes. Deep blows won't throw Ryouga away, and he is able to successfully chain deep blows - which do more damage over a shorter period of time, and are thus the ideal option. Assuming, of course, that we're working with anything approaching real-world combat dynamics, which is far from Rumiko's forte.

[claymade]

WRONG.
Not just wrong, but...
Okay, lets put this in physics terms.
The force of an object is its mass times its velocity squared. More speed equals a lot more power. You move slow, you're not going to be able to hurt anything. The rest of your argument is based off a flawed premise, and doesn't need to be countered item-by-item.

Sorry if I miscommunicated; I didn't mean the speed of an individual punch. I meant the speed of his barrage of punches, or in other words, the rate at which he can punch. To increase the rate Ranma can punch at (using normal means) he has to either commit less body weight to each punch or use a more "snapping" movement--"shallower", as I think you would describe it. Thus resulting in less powerful punches either way.

Because as the BT arc began, he was beating the shit out of Ryouga with the fruits of the training and not calling out jack?

What makes you think that that improvement has to be from the KTA training? Akane tells Ryouga that "from all those fights with Shampoo's grandmother he's gotten much stronger and faster." He was getting all kinds of experience fighting against Cologne--heck, they were going at it for a whole week while he was working in her restaurant, and that was before she even started to break out the chestnuts. You don't think he would have gotten better from that?
And if the Amaguriken is an actual technique (as Cologne says it is) and if it is geared only toward his arms (as seems perfectly reasonable) then it all makes sense. Ranma tried holding Ryogua in place and kicking him, but still wasn't able to rack up the damage fast enough. So he switched to his arms, which were less powerful than his legs, but which could use the KTA. Which he pushed to its limits to strike not just more, but order-of-magnitude times more, probably striking as hard as you can possibly hit him without sending him flying.
In other words, yes. Deep kicks at KTA-level speeds while holding Ryouga in place by trapping his arms so he can't use the breaking point--that is the absolute best damage. But if the KTA is a punching technique, you can't do that. Deep punches at KTA level speeds while holding Ryouga in place would be second best damage, but very dangerous because both your arms are occupied, and he might manage to Bakusai Tenketsu you.
So you've got a choice between either ditching the power of the deep kicks, or the speed of the KTA. A choice between around four high-power kicks or hundreds of lower-power blows. And given that the characters themselves remark on the unbalancedness of his hornet-catching training, I think it's well within plausibility to posit that his max speed at that point was so out of proportion to the max power that he could have brought to bear in any case, that it was better to just go with his strong suit.
And actually... Look carefully at the circumstances of all his KTA blows. The first is driving down at Ryouga from an angle, into the pit of his stomach, and his foe is braced to boot. It wouldn't have sent him flying--at most skidding along the ground a little, but with a large component of his force acting to drive Ryouga into the ground. The third KTA he throws has Ryouga's own momentum as a backstop. And with the fourth he does contrive to hammer Ryouga against a solid object with it. Only the second one is a straight shot, and only the second sends Ryouga flying. In other words, for 75% of his attacks on Ryouga, he could potentially have been doing the whole KTA with full, or nearly full-force punches.

[Pale Wolf]

What makes you think that that improvement has to be from the KTA training? Akane tells Ryouga that "from all those fights with Shampoo's grandmother he's gotten much stronger and faster." He was getting all kinds of experience fighting against Cologne--heck, they were going at it for a whole week while he was working in her restaurant, and that was before she even started to break out the chestnuts. You don't think he would have gotten better from that?

In a functional sense, the whole arc was one huge training session. The KTA, the fights with Cologne, they're not distinguished from one another, they're a single functional unit.

And if the Amaguriken is an actual technique (as Cologne says it is)

Okay, I accepted this statement without argument before. Now, please prove it. Link me the page where she says it.

(as seems perfectly reasonable)

Reasonable? Uh... That'd be a pretty good candidate for most pathetic special technique if it only boosted arm speeds. A 'reasonable' course would be to make a technique that focused on the legs, if only one limb set, or on the whole body preferably.

In other words, yes. Deep kicks at KTA-level speeds while holding Ryouga in place by trapping his arms so he can't use the breaking point--that is the absolute best damage. But if the KTA is a punching technique, you can't do that. Deep punches at KTA level speeds while holding Ryouga in place would be second best damage, but very dangerous because both your arms are occupied, and he might manage to Bakusai Tenketsu you.

Really, they're both pretty pitiful options. Best option is a knife at KTA speeds

[claymade]

In a functional sense, the whole arc was one huge training session. The KTA, the fights with Cologne, they're not distinguished from one another, they're a single functional unit.

The point I was making is that even if all the KTA itself does is increase arm speed, there was much more going on at that time than the straight KTA training. That other stuff would still account for how Ranma was dancing around Ryouga.
In other words, there's no proof that Ranma was using the KTA in their first fight.

Okay, I accepted this statement without argument before. Now, please prove it. Link me the page where she says it.

The quote I listed above was from this page:
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book05/RM05-179.jpg
And there are other occurances of similar statements in that arc as well, from Cologne as well as Ranma and Shampoo.
But the one that really makes it blindingly obvious is the instance antimatterenergy points out back on page 1 of the thread.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book36/RM36-073.gif
And this is easily months after the KTA training! If the Amaguriken was a generic training regimen to permanently increase Ranma's base speed rather than a technique that he employs to boost his speed when needed, the above page would be as ridiculous as someone yelling "Barbells!" when punching someone, because they did weights months ago to increase their strength. It just... doesn't make any sense.

Reasonable? Uh... That'd be a pretty good candidate for most pathetic special technique if it only boosted arm speeds. A 'reasonable' course would be to make a technique that focused on the legs, if only one limb set, or on the whole body preferably.

Oh, come on now. Arm speed is hugely important. Unless you think things like blocking, punching, joint locks, pressure point attacks and grabbing pheonix pills are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. No, if there's a way to boost your arms by such a huge extent, it's the farthest thing in the world from "pathetic" to learn how.

Really, they're both pretty pitiful options. Best option is a knife at KTA speeds

Sure, if you don't mind carving up the guy.

[Pale Wolf]

In other words, there's no proof that Ranma was using the KTA in their first fight.

Fair enough. Though, as well, there is no proof that he was not using it.

And this is easily months after the KTA training! If the Amaguriken was a generic training regimen to permanently increase Ranma's base speed rather than a technique that he employs to boost his speed when needed, the above page would be as ridiculous as someone yelling "Barbells!" when punching someone, because they did weights months ago to increase their strength. It just... doesn't make any sense.

Are you... applying the term 'sense' to the practice of calling out attacks?

Oh, come on now. Arm speed is hugely important. Unless you think things like blocking, punching, joint locks, pressure point attacks and grabbing pheonix pills are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. No, if there's a way to boost your arms by such a huge extent, it's the farthest thing in the world from "pathetic" to learn how.

Oh, no no no, it's not totally useless - very useful in certain situations, in fact. But... There's no increase in speed of movement. Why the heck would generations of emperors fear the technique if all they have to do is tell their archers to shoot for the legs against that particular type of opponent?
Technique's useless as soon as the opponent gets more than about three quarters of a meter away from you. Not exactly vast levels of effectiveness here.
Like I said, speeding up the legs would be far more useful. Legs can be used for attack, for block, and if the legs are faster then the entire body moves with vastly superior agility.

Sure, if you don't mind carving up the guy.

Well, isn't that the point? I mean, the guy's already declared his intent to kill you on numerous occassions, he was attacking Ranma with a technique every one of them believed would make his head explode like he was an extra on Akira... What court would punish him for it?

[Sheylenna]

Hmmm you know even if it was originally a training method only...
Cologne could have called it a technique just to see if Ranma would make anything of it.
IE- improve on the training to make it into something formidable.
But then you never know.
I mean she must have been at least testing his suitability to be an Amazon's husband.
She certainly was when she started the chase when he first met her.

[Battlekrome]

to inject a bit of semi-realism... no really..
Remember one technique by bruce lee called the 3 inch punch...
ranma might just be skilled enough to do something similar... 3 inches back and forth is very short distance....

[claymade]

Are you... applying the term 'sense' to the practice of calling out attacks?

It's a martial arts manga convention. Just because it doesn't happen in real life doesn't mean we can't deduce anything about what it's intended to signify.
In addition to that, you said it yourself--it's "the practice of calling out attacks". Which also gives the implication that the KTA is one, by precedent.

Oh, no no no, it's not totally useless - very useful in certain situations, in fact. But... There's no increase in speed of movement. Why the heck would generations of emperors fear the technique if all they have to do is tell their archers to shoot for the legs against that particular type of opponent?

Perhaps because--if what Ranma does to Ryouga's blast of rock shrapnel is any indication--they can pluck swarms of arrows out of the air without discernable effort?
(And incidentally, could you provide a link to the page where it says that the emperors were afraid of it? I'm afraid I can't remember where in the storyline that happens.)

Technique's useless as soon as the opponent gets more than about three quarters of a meter away from you. Not exactly vast levels of effectiveness here.

Unless they're sending projectiles your way. Or if they're trying to kick you. Or if you're throwing projectiles at them. Imagine a hidden weapons master like Mousse throwing near-endless supplies of throwing knives from his weapon-space with Amaguriken speed. Ancient day machine gun.

Like I said, speeding up the legs would be far more useful. Legs can be used for attack, for block, and if the legs are faster then the entire body moves with vastly superior agility.

Kicks can block, technically, but much worse than hands. Your defense would be much less with a kick KTA than with an arm KTA, and it wouldn't help you with performing ranged attacks like an arm KTA would. Granted, it would give you somewhat better range and significantly more power with your KTA in melee, and you could definitely run much faster. I'd hardly say that's a slam dunk, though.
And it's pointless speculation, really. We don't even know what the principles of the Amaguriken are, much less whether they can be applied to legs with the same degree of effect. Arm structure and muscles are, after all, far more suited to fast, dextrous motion--one could imagine that however the Amaguriken works, it just isn't suited to legs, losing some degree of its effectiveness. Once we leave what Rumiko has definitively told us, it's all hypothetical and we don't know "how" any of this stuff works.
Bottom line: even if there was a leg KTA out there somewhere, the arm version is pretty daggone devastating, and the leg version wouldn't have helped Ranma snatch the Pheonix pill. So that was what Cologne taught. And so that was what Ranma had. And so that was what Ranma used.

Well, isn't that the point? I mean, the guy's already declared his intent to kill you on numerous occassions, he was attacking Ranma with a technique every one of them believed would make his head explode like he was an extra on Akira... What court would punish him for it?

But that's not Ranma. Regardless of whether he could get away with it, his goal here isn't to kill Ryouga. Techniques are only effective inasmuch as they allow you to fulfill your goals.
(And obviously it pays off for him big time in this instance; he survives just fine, and Ryouga goes on to save his life on multiple occasions later. Pretty good trade, all things considered.)