Could Ranma ever stand up to Dragonball /DBZ ?

Discuss the Ranma series in this forum.

Postby three headed dog » Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:55 pm

why would he bother with making the ice matrix in the ground if he could throw the HSH without it

Maybe it gives him more control over it or more power. When she threw that hiryu shoten ha it was by far the most pathetic one we've seen disipated as fast as it formed. I also don't see it as a change of the core technique since she would have to still have the soul of ice, Genma and Soun did provide heat with their aura's, and there was a spiral - it was just a very pathetic one - twisting the arm in a partial spiral.
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Postby Pale Wolf » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:18 pm

Indeed... And even in terms of skill, things can be easier or harder depending on having learned other skills previously (as FOG3 pointed out). Goku, IIRC, was trained by Gohan, who was trained by Roshi originally, so many of the skills he had already learned could theoretically have been leading up to the Kamehameha to some degree. All kinds of room for fudging either way there.

Indeed. Entirely possible that he'd already done the years of training, then? :P
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Postby claymade » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:44 pm

Pale Wolf wrote:Indeed. Entirely possible that he'd already done the years of training, then? :P

Well, if someone were to explain it that way in a fic, I wouldn't find it implausible...
Maybe it gives him more control over it or more power. When she threw that hiryu shoten ha it was by far the most pathetic one we've seen disipated as fast as it formed.

Huh? How do we know that it was weaker? Given that there's no timestamps on the frames, we can't really say how long it lasted, and the perspective of the shot doesn't let us see how high it went.
Not to mention that you have to factor in the difference in auras being projected--that's the only time we've seen the HSH used on Genma and Soun, and I doubt their battle auras were in the same state as a pissed off Happi or Herb, or an uber-pissed-off Ryouga.
I also don't see it as a change of the core technique since she would have to still have the soul of ice, Genma and Soun did provide heat with their aura's, and there was a spiral - it was just a very pathetic one - twisting the arm in a partial spiral.

And yet it took out its targets, which makes any extra power it might have had superfluous at best. If the HSH can, with a simple uppercut, hit you with a high enough percentage of your own power that it sends you flying and knocks you unconscious, that makes it a ridiculously powerful technique.
That's what I meant by completely changing the rules--going from a very restrictive set of circumstances where the uber-technique can be used, to being able to use it at the drop of a hat. And like I said before, the thought that Ranma gained such a mind-bogglingly potent power-up offscreen, with no explanation, and no one even commenting on it, makes no sense to me whatsoever.
-----
One other thing that's always bugged me about the DBZ power system... There's the oft-quoted statistic, in trying to map their power that Master Roshi was able to blow up the moon with a power level of 139. If 139 is enough to actually obliterate the whole moon, was there any rationale ever given for why the later fighters weren't causing extinction-level events every time they opened up on each other with blasts in the millions?
It's almost enough to make me want to believe that either Roshi managed to hide his true power somehow, or else he "knows a trick" to accomplish the moon's destruction (some kind of planetary-scale Bakusai Tenketsu, if you will--blowing up the moon with the ki equivalent of a tap). If so, that might buy a little bit more wiggle room for Ranma & co, especially in the early stages of the series. But then, my Dragonball knowledge is relatively limited, so I may well be off-base in this.
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Postby FOG3 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:19 pm

Heh, if you really want to smart off on that you just find the energy the beam would need to be if DE (SD.net has it) to destroy astral bodies and turn around and use this to find the insane momentum that even a massless energy beam of that energy level would have. Then after pointing this out and showing that Conservation of Momentum is working, you point out how Goku should be either making his way towards the Core, or flying off into space at a significant fraction of the speed of light.
CoM is the ultimate trump card on all stupid fighting anime. Of course, they come out from being savaged by it about a thousand times better then Ranma 1/2 does. Those inertialess boulders, when we have the Super Soba showing very different behavior with object with an apparent mass in the same ball park, really hurt you because that's about 90% of what your feats rely on. Things like that floating stunt pretty much force the observer to cut gravity down, which means you average Terran Five year old has a good chance of physically overpowering them. Sorry but thems the breaks when you drag RL physics in.
claymade wrote:The problem with interpreting it that way is that even in the Ranmaverse we have all kinds of "normal" humans running around who are astonished by the freakish displays of strength, speed and durability that the relatively few martial artists display.
You don't see Hiroshi and Daisuke doing multi-story leaps, nor Yuka and Sayuri lifting huge boulders. Akane herself can take out a whole mob of her classmates with ease, and Ranma and his peers are all orders of magnitude more powerful than her.
No matter which way you look at it, Ranma & co are on a completely different level than the "standard" human being, even in their world.
Even in their world, huh? Interesting sentiment to bother to tack on. Okay, what makes the losers in Volume 1&2 better then in a series of similar nature? This isn't Slayers where your average sorceror can put out some serious magic, YYH where if you have a name you are practically by definition seriously dangerous, this is Ranma 1/2 a series that has a lot feat overlap with Pokemon where it doesn't come out on top. By the time things stabilized in later volumes, Joe Smuck could come off the street and trash the cast if Takahashi wanted it, and that basically happens a lot.
The difference between it's early rendition and later is very simple. Starting out Takahashi was at least nominally serious. Later she made it into what is in the most literal by definition sense, a farce. A play that is a series of improbable and outright ridiculous events optimized for comedic effect. The cost for this optimization is all characters basically end up being mentally retarded, delusional, and a least mildly sociopathic. Ranma 1/2 is primarily a farce, slapstick elements are merely a thin veneer added on top of that.
Naturally one of the biggest problems comes from when people instead of acknowledging it is in fact a farce, take it dead seriously. Most anime available is a least nominally tongue in cheek, but this is literally a farce so taking it seriously is just wrong on so many levels.
Instead of having somebody go out and drag someone off the stage with a crook, characters who were inconvenient for the next seen get treated to the Sauron maneuver which all actors at all levels have been shown to be able to execute when the proper conditions for it be executed are realized. If it seems appropriate something like "power levels" is utterly ignored. Genma can be matching Happosai in a flat out battle of aura projection and ki power in one scene before in the next turning around and doing the 'we're not worthy' routine because it is in fact a farce and that kind of material works quite well with a farce. Literature doesn't prevent the use of farcical techniques as the Slayers novels for example show.
Your assessment doesn't recognize this fact and so you find it necessary to embellish things to a rather serious degree. Normal women have no problem thrashing Happi. If your uber creatures have such insane durability that requires orders of magnitude more strength, why can they even hurt him? Bees sting Ranma just fine, which involves them driving their stinger into him with their muscle strength. I shouldn't have to point out Bees aren't exactly Titans in the strength department. Other characters aren't exactly giving the reaction of hitting a steel wall if they smack them, nor is their target immune to the strikes effect.
Strength? The boulders really hurt that, because the effective mass on those things is so bloody small. Plus there simply is very little to no follow through. The best you got are Ryouga hitting Ranma during the HSH arc, and Ranma hitting Ryouga during the BP arc. Otherwise there's no real followthrough for the strength behind their blows being enhanced. Given we don't get reconfigured faces or anything of the like, it's kind of hard to justify their reliably being enough power behind those blows for them to be even particularly heavy by RL standards.
Speed? Sure when Takahashi wants him to he can move at a decent clip, but thats just a handful of one chapter incidents. Most of the time he's proceeding along at the same speed as a normal person, and the odd incidents where he is faster are often inconsistant with one and another.
Intelligence? The most often adjetive I remember being canonically applied to him was _idiot_. This usually surrounded him in fact doing something idiotic or lamebrained, but you seem exceeding sure that he is in fact some sort of genius in his universe. Fine then, I believe then you should have no trouble drawing up five incidents showing this in a way that is non-negotiable (none of the maybe, kind of, sort of, not really stuff), with at least a ballpark for the volumes they come from.
The simple fact of the matter is the insistance on things being embellished and "Ranma's to good for that" is fanon and a rather dangerous poison to the fanfiction community. It's gotten to point the group behind it is actually actively suppressing people who might otherwise write decent fics, and manipulating other writers to follow their dogma. I've seen a few people pull off uber allen Ranma off well, but they used a few tricks to do that. First of all they usually gave him just one power up somewhere along the way, second they made the power an incidental thing instead of spending entire sections focussing on it and embellishing anything that might hurt or endanger him. Power isn't so much a problem as people being braggarts about their favorite character is.
How long would it take those same "most people" Roshi was referring to learn the HSH or the Amaguriken?
You do realize that several universes have their protagonists doing the anime version of the Amiguriken, only better with practically no commentary and they're usually a lot more dangerous do you not? If you go with manga then it is as Ranma himself put it simply speed training and the feat itself is rubbish. Cologne actually had coals and flames surrounding her hands after showing it off, and further which do you think if the bigger problem: the convection from the vaporized oils in the wood undergoing an exothermic reaction (translation: flames) as you move your hand through them or the conduction from the chestnut that's been buried in the fire heart as your hand wraps around it? I know people who will put their hands in liquid nitrogen to no ill effect, same difference.
HSH requires three steps: learn to suppress aura, be able to dodge while doing the spiral, and an upper cut. The only difficult parts in the basics is developing aura control and dodging ability. Seems as how we're referring to DBZ I shouldn't need to point out the Z fighters already have rather developed capabilities in that as well as a better ITITQ (Identification, Targeting, Intention Through Qi Yes I just made that term up, the concept is pretty universal through these kind of things though) to the point it's like comparing the RADAR on a F-4D (Ranma) and a F-22A (Z fighters) sure they operate under the same principle but there is such a serious difference in capability they might as well be entirely different machines.
Genma didn't disapear and Ranma is basically shown getting the same reaction from Ryu with the Umi sen Ken. The phrase used is they seem like a ghost. The basic principle seems obvious. You suppress your aura causing you to drop off the ability of your opponents ITITQ to follow, adopt quiet movement to suppress the noise that might give you away, and strategically make sure you are anywhere but where they are looking at any given moment. Would this work in a serious setting? Probably not, but this is a farce and if he could do a Romulan style cloak it seems very odd for him to have not taken advantage of that capability. Incindentally there's no gurantee that aura suppression trick would be sufficient to drop off the Z-fighters much more refined ITITQ. Ranma's been doing aura control to some degree throughout his entire career, and the whole business with the special metal suit was to make him suppress it in the HSH arc. Of course, if you insist that little stub incident was the entirety of it ignoring all the work with HSH between I can by the same standards say Magic girls develop new attacks in under a minute and thus Ranma will be swamped in a slew of new techniques that if not initiately will eventually pound him into submission as she keeps turning out a new one every shot. :) I must admit to finding the image rather amusing.
Furthermore I am a bloody crossover writer, and I've never seen any of my peers bolt on the Ifurita module to Ranma without it turning around and gutting their fic. The goal of the operation is to create an entertaining story first and foremost, everything else is secondary considerations. There are tricks and my preferred art, fusion, that don't require such heavy handed tactics to make things work. You can even *gasp* pretend there is no problem and bull your way through, especially when both series are basically farces that don't really care that much about things like followthrough and RL Physics have no place in them.
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Postby claymade » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:22 am

FOG3 wrote:Even in their world, huh? Interesting sentiment to bother to tack on. Okay, what makes the losers in Volume 1&2 better then in a series of similar nature?

When I said "Even in their world", the point was that even if it was a world where stuff "weighs less", it's still the case that Ranma & co. can lift enough "less-weighing" stuff to awe normal onlookers. (In retrospect, I grant that that could have been phrased clearer.)
FOG3 wrote:The difference between it's early rendition and later is very simple. Starting out Takahashi was at least nominally serious. Later she made it into what is in the most literal by definition sense, a farce. A play that is a series of improbable and outright ridiculous events optimized for comedic effect.

Sure, it's heavily farcical in parts. And yes, a lot of people don't allow for this. But the thing is, it's possible to swing too far to the other side as well, and ignore the fact that in other parts, Takahashi plays it noticeably straighter. I didn't laugh much during the Nerima trio's big fights with Herb & co.--sure, there were a few humorous spots, but the usual balance between laughs and drama is pretty clearly inverted there.
The key to interpreting what you read is to distinguish the degree of seriousness involved. I lose absolutely zero sleep over the fact that anybody can punch anybody into the stratosphere out of annoyance, because I know that its all in good fun. But that still doesn't mean I can't also enjoy the parts where Takahashi plays the battles for excitement as opposed to laughs.
Heck, a lot of anime/manga have this balancing act--in one proportion or another. Trigun, for example, has a lot of oddball, nonsensical elements woven into its action scenes, but few would question that it has a very serious side to it as well.
<physics stuff>

Oh, I'm certainly not committed to following RL physics lockstep. I fully recognize that Ranma's in a funky kind of world, one that takes the often-ridiculous physics of a wuxia film and amplifies its conciets a hundred-fold. I'm not trying to explain how a human being can throw massive boulders as though they were massless--any more than I can explain how a human being can push themselves up off the surface of a lake using the tip of their sword (as they do in "Hero"). In both cases, I'm just enjoying the fact that they can, objectively ridiculous though it might be.
(Although, when possible, I do try to find explanations that dovetail as close as possible with RL physics. No sense in distorting things beyond necessity.)
But whichever way you want to look at it--whether it's the physics or the rocks that are funky--it's still clear that Ranma & co. are head and shoulders above the "normal" denizens of their world simply by direct comparison. Whatever the gravity is, Hiroshi can't even budge the umbrella that Ryouga uses like a frickin' rapier. Ranma can move too fast for Nabiki to even see. (Durability is, granted, a bit trickier to lock down precisely, since all characters have some level of slapstick-based durability, inasmuch as they ever get hurt.)
But as for intelligence... when did I ever state that I was "exceeding sure that he is in fact some sort of genius in his universe"?
If it seems appropriate something like "power levels" is utterly ignored. Genma can be matching Happosai in a flat out battle of aura projection and ki power in one scene before in the next turning around and doing the 'we're not worthy' routine because it is in fact a farce and that kind of material works quite well with a farce.

Hm? Out of curiousity, what instance are you thinking of? The only time I can think of where they were both battle auras was in vol. 6, but all Genma managed to do there was duplicate Happousai's technique for a fraction of the time that Happi sustains it for--and never actually did anything to Happi with it.
If you go with manga then it is as Ranma himself put it simply speed training and the feat itself is rubbish.

Actually, both he and Cologne refer to the KTA as an actual technique in the manga, one that can be "mastered".
Would this work in a serious setting? Probably not, but this is a farce and if he could do a Romulan style cloak it seems very odd for him to have not taken advantage of that capability.

Eh? What more would you expect him to do with it than what he did? The effective result of the technique was invisiblility, whatever the means to accomplish it--when in full swing, he was attacking Ryu with impunity, and Ryu had no idea where he was or where the attacks were coming from.
In any case, I do agree that there's no definitive proof that he's invisible. I'm not even sure which side I lean on myself--there's evidence that makes me think both ways. *shrugs*
EDIT: I've since checked the fan translation against the Viz translation, and having seen the later, it seems much more explicit that Ranma is not becoming invisible. So mark my opinions as shifting decidedly to that angle.
Incindentally there's no gurantee that aura suppression trick would be sufficient to drop off the Z-fighters much more refined ITITQ.

Debatable. They don't seem to be able to sense ki at all unless someone's actually doing something with it--e.g. when Gohan was searching for Videl--or for Goku during the first Android wave--he had to wait for them to actually start fighting before he could trace them. And if someone was actively cloaking their aura...
Ranma's been doing aura control to some degree throughout his entire career, and the whole business with the special metal suit was to make him suppress it in the HSH arc. Of course, if you insist that little stub incident was the entirety of it ignoring all the work with HSH between I can by the same standards say Magic girls develop new attacks in under a minute and thus Ranma will be swamped in a slew of new techniques that if not initiately will eventually pound him into submission as she keeps turning out a new one every shot. :) I must admit to finding the image rather amusing.

...huh? How does the conclusion about the magical girls follow from the question of how much the HSH helped with the Umisenken? You've completely lost me with this one.
As for the HSH/Umi question itself, it's relatively reasonable to assume the HSH training helped, but whether the HSH training gave Ranma 95% of what he needed to know for the Umi, or whether it was just the first 5% baby step we have no way of knowing.
I lean more toward the latter myself--considering how much more shocking to its watchers the Umi's effect was relative to the Soul of Ice, it feels like there should have been a good deal more to it than what he already had. But that's pure speculation--ultimately, only Takahashi can say.
Last edited by claymade on Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby three headed dog » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:16 pm

If the HSH can, with a simple uppercut, hit you with a high enough percentage of your own power that it sends you flying and knocks you unconscious, that makes it a ridiculously powerful technique.

How does this make it anymore a ridiculously powerful technique than other techniques we have seen? It isn't really much different than Happosai's pipe throw technique (Ranma did this technique in the manga as well) which did the exact same thing only required the other person to be within closer range. There are other techniques in the manga even more dangerous than that which take almost no time at all as well the vacuum blades from the forbidden techniques, Kima's ki blades, and Herbs ki blades are techniques as if not more dangerous than it. As for how long that Hiryu Shoten Ha took the other characters only say a few lines that would only take a few seconds to say before Soun and Genma land indicating to me that it was a very short lived tornado.
going from a very restrictive set of circumstances where the uber-technique can be used, to being able to use it at the drop of a hat.

I don't think that it was instantaneous. It seemed to me that as the manga progressed Ranma got better at doing the Hiryu Shoten Ha and was able to better control and perform it quicker. Ranma's first Hiryu Shoten Ha took the longest time to form (Used on Ryoga), by the time of Herb Ranma was able to alter the technique so as to use the Hiryu Korin Dan, next time we see the Hiryu Shoten Ha is against Happosai and his friend Lucky and Ranma does the spiral fast enough that Happosai doesn't notice it fast enough, next time we see it was the mirror clone who did it without running in a spiral, next came the Saffron battle in which it was altered further in that now Ranma was able to send the tornado to the opponent rather than waiting for the opponent to come close enough to be sucked in. It seem to me that the technique was evolving as the manga progressed.
Intelligence - I don't Remember anyone mentioning that Ranma was a genius. Fast learner yep in that he can see a technique once or just a few times and then copy it as he did the umisenken and Happosai's pipe throw. Genius at martial arts possibly overall I don't know. He does appear to be passing in school even though we know he misses and has missed a large amount of school (cuts class, interrupted in class, was in china instead of school, goes on training trips during school time - Konatsu intro, etc...). But on the other hand he does a lot of stupid things. Now that I think about it his plans aren't really that bad just very short sighted. He gets an idea in his head and runs with it instead of spending some time thinking about it. If he is a genius then he is more like Jimmy Neutron - i.e. maybe smart but doesn't think things through enough and not like Batman who thinks everything through with plans and counter plans.
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Postby claymade » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:20 pm

three headed dog wrote:How does this make it anymore a ridiculously powerful technique than other techniques we have seen? It isn't really much different than Happosai's pipe throw technique (Ranma did this technique in the manga as well) which did the exact same thing only required the other person to be within closer range. There are other techniques in the manga even more dangerous than that which take almost no time at all as well the vacuum blades from the forbidden techniques, Kima's ki blades, and Herbs ki blades are techniques as if not more dangerous than it.

Because all those can be dodged. Pipe throw--even if it were a recurring technique, which it wasn't--requires you to actually grapple the opponent. All the ki blade techniques are similarly dodgeable, and even if not dodged, they're not one-hit victories. (At least, the Yamasenken one wasn't. I don't recall if anyone ever actually even got hit with the others, so I can't be sure on that score.)
The thing about a spiral-less HSH is that he doesn't need to hit the opponent at all. He just punches the sky, then their own battle aura jumps up and blows them away, and he wins.
As for how long that Hiryu Shoten Ha took the other characters only say a few lines that would only take a few seconds to say before Soun and Genma land indicating to me that it was a very short lived tornado.

They didn't say any more than that during Ryouga's tornado. Also, there's the issue of the relative battle auras to consider.
Ranma does the spiral fast enough that Happosai doesn't notice it fast enough

Given Happi's usual level of situational awareness when there's a bra involved (e.g. Taro's second appearance) that really doesn't say that much... ;)
It seem to me that the technique was evolving as the manga progressed.

True. But the other changes were either explicitly stated innovations, and/or the result of special case circumstances--like having the Gekkaja ice for his Hiryū Hyou Tōppa, etc. But unlike those other innovations, neither he nor anyone else ever mentions anything about being able to do the HSH with a simple uppercut, which would have been easily the most utterly overwhelming of those innovations.
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Postby three headed dog » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:28 pm

It could still be dodged. Herb showed that if you use an aura of the same temperature you can ride the Hiryu Shoten Ha. It could probably be dodged by putting out no/or to small an aura as well. I would count those other techniques as one hit victories because they can cut you to pieces. As for Happosai's technique no grapple was required the opponent just had to get close enough to hit the person. After looking at that Hiryu Shoten Ha particularly the page after it I don't think it actually knocked Soun and Genma out since they were standing immeadiately afterwards and if it did knock them out I'd guess it was because they landed on their heads. I think that tornado was less powerful than Ranma's ki blasts.
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Postby claymade » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:00 pm

three headed dog wrote:It could still be dodged. Herb showed that if you use an aura of the same temperature you can ride the Hiryu Shoten Ha.

Yes, and he was able to do so because he not only already knew the HSH, but also noticed beforehand that Ranma was leading him into a spiral--thus he was prepared.
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book24/RM24-171.gif
I would count those other techniques as one hit victories because they can cut you to pieces.

Except that Ranma is hit by the Yamasenken blades and survives just fine.
As for Happosai's technique no grapple was required the opponent just had to get close enough to hit the person.

It's not just a matter of distance, you have to actually catch their wrist with your pipe/fan and fling them. Which is, obviously, totally avoidable. Little more than a standard martial arts throw given the Ranmaverse treatment, really.
After looking at that Hiryu Shoten Ha particularly the page after it I don't think it actually knocked Soun and Genma out since they were standing immeadiately afterwards and if it did knock them out I'd guess it was because they landed on their heads. I think that tornado was less powerful than Ranma's ki blasts.

Actually, looking at it a second time, the swirling eyes seem to be from dizziness--Soun hasn't even landed yet in that frame. This makes it unclear how much damage it actually ended up doing, especially since Genma's fall was cushioned by the false onna-Ranma. She certainly got taken out by it.
Besides, it doesn't really matter. Even if a spiral-less HSH weren't powerful enough to take out someone in only one blow, and even if it could be countered by using Soul/Body of Ice, that still means that pretty much only the people who can do the Soul/Body of Ice--or who use long range combat--would have a prayer against an pure-uppercut HSH. But in a straight-up fistfight with anyone who doesn't have that particular training, it makes Ranma almost untouchable.
Incidentally, I note we're getting a bit off-topic here. If we want to continue this, we might want to move it to its own thread, maybe start a "Hiten Shoryu Ha" discussion thread, like the existing "Amaguriken" discussion one.
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Postby antimatterenergy » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:50 pm

Besides, it doesn't really matter. Even if a spiral-less HSH weren't powerful enough to take out someone in only one blow, and even if it could be countered by using Soul/Body of Ice, that still means that pretty much only the people who can do the Soul/Body of Ice--or who use long range combat--would have a prayer against an pure-uppercut HSH. But in a straight-up fistfight with anyone who doesn't have that particular training, it makes Ranma almost untouchable.

Doesn't Ranma's Ki blast's do the same thing? Every time Ranma tried to attack Herb and Miss Hinako they would blast him away. So I really don't see what the big deal is for a spiral less Hiryu Shoten Ha is all it seems to do is knock the opponent away buying some time and Ranma can do the same thing with a ki blast anyway. Even without a spiral less HSH In a straight up fist fight Ranma could always do like Hinako and Herb and blast his opponents away and a ki blast is even harder to avoid at close range since it doesn't matter if the opponent has a hot, cold, weak, or suppressed aura. That particular HSH unlike the ones used against Saffron also appears to have required the opponent/s to be relatively close to the person who throws it (outside arm length but still close enough that a ki blast used in the same situation would be very hard to dodge).
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Postby claymade » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:40 am

antimatterenergy wrote:Even without a spiral less HSH In a straight up fist fight Ranma could always do like Hinako and Herb and blast his opponents away and a ki blast is even harder to avoid at close range since it doesn't matter if the opponent has a hot, cold, weak, or suppressed aura. That particular HSH unlike the ones used against Saffron also appears to have required the opponent/s to be relatively close to the person who throws it (outside arm length but still close enough that a ki blast used in the same situation would be very hard to dodge).

...that's a good point; I hadn't thought of it that way. The ki blasts probably would function like that. Heck, the above is pretty much exactly how Ryouga beats Ranma the first time with the Shi Shi Hokodan--by keeping him from ever closing to fistcuff range. So I guess there's a canonical example of that exact strategy being applied in the manga itself, just as you describe it.
Okay... I'm still by no means convinced that Ranma actually can blow someone away using a spiral the target isn't inside of, but I will grant that it wouldn't be (much) more unbalancing than those already-existant techniques. I suppose that--worst case--it would just force the other characters to learn Soul of Ice to keep up, just like Ranma needed to learn the Moko Takabisha to counter the Shi Shi Hokodan.
...that'd be a pain to work into a fic, though, and would add all kinds of extra complexities to the fights. Much simpler--and just as valid, IMHO--to assume that Takahashi merely skipped the spiral in that one instance, just like she did with Cologne's. Flashback or not, it is evidence that she'll do so to save space.
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Re: Could Ranma ever stand up to Dragonball /DBZ ?

Postby toushin » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:16 pm

read a human sayain this is the best answer you will get.

while the dragon ball z world has alot of powerful fighters as the story evolves their overall and to hand skills become pretty basic. the human sayain uses this concept. the z fighters couldn't handle the complexity of ranma's style and skill. ranma was even able to give perfect cell a run for his money where vageta and trunks got there ass's handed to them, but even then she wasn't able to beat him.

thats why i say this is the best answer ranma's skill in kachu tenshin and anything goes while not inabling him to keep up with the z fighters would allow him keep up by reading their moves and dodging before a strike lands, plus the hiryuu shoten ha and umisen ken would be a big factor in the fight. on the other hand if the z fighters just deside to say screw it and just use a massive amout of ki to overpower ranma then he's done


the only person i dont think ranma could beat is goku. for ranma to hold his own in a fight he would have to relie more on his opponent attacking and him reacting. while vageta and the others could be easily angered ranma would never even think of doing the kind of things it would take to anger goku.

finally you have to remember that ranma learns the fastest and is at his most creative while he's fighting so for each match he has he would be better and better prepared to fight while the z fighters would keep under estimating him so while at first ranma would fight them more like he would fight ryoga he would later on fight them how he would fight saffron or herb, by using there massive amounts of energy against them.

ranma could hold his own in the z world but it would take some time becuase he's not the type of person who would just swell is ki to massive level he would relie more on control then power
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Re: Could Ranma ever stand up to Dragonball /DBZ ?

Postby toushin » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:58 pm

ranma would actually have a harder time in dragon ball then dragonball z. dragon ball relies more on skill but when the z fighters withness the battles between piccilo and raddiz they start to focus soly on power. so while they may be alot more powerful then ranma there dwindling skill level would give him the advantage. plus ranma thinks alot different then the z fighters with the exception of the sayians.

its not that ranma cant lose its that he doesn't except losing. when he loses a fight he goes back at everythin what he did wrong what his opponent did even the enviornment they fought in.(ranmas fight with herb in the hotspring really helped him) so in the rematch he goes in with that knowledge and keeps getting up untill he wins. plus anything goes allows him to change the way he fights in an instint. while the human z fighters have resolved themselves as backround charecters they will fight but they have no expectations of winning. ranma would fight to win and wouldn't stop untill he did.

heres how i see it going in dragonball lets say about the time of the 23rd tornament ranma would make it the quarter maybe semi finals, he would lose but the opponent would be incredibly weakened. he would then go out find away to build up his ki level while thinking up ways of striping his fighters of theirs then go back and try again.

lets face it after a certain point in dragonball their fighting ability is purly the level of their ki once that is taken away ranma could most likely easily handle them. its when super sayian and beyond is when ranma would be totally outaken with their power and even then he could hold his own.
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Re: Could Ranma ever stand up to Dragonball /DBZ ?

Postby Cheb » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:27 pm

In fact all martial arts styles in dragon ball seem be basic force against force which makes

Wrong. They are creative and inventive, at least in other ways to utilize their ki.

1. look at kid Goku's training under Mister Popo. I bet, Goku outmatched him in power, yet he was unable to lay a finger on Mr. Popo. This training, to see with his ki, not his eyes, was very likely the reason why Vegeta was never able to surpass him.

2. Look at the beginning of DBZ-Kai, the cat-and-mouse games between Kuririn, Gohan & Vegeta. It's the point where they utilize ki sense as a radar (a very sensitive radar), then Vegeta reverse-engineers it from just knowing it's possible and they have to use "stealth mode" supressing their ki and losing almost all their power and speed, to the point where they have to jump instead of flying at supersonic speeds. All in all, this part is full of very elaborate scheming and using your brains against a vastly superior force (Kuririn&Gohan vs Vegeta, Vegeta vs Frieza).

3. At this stage, A) the fights are too fast for us to see, often we see just flashes of motion resolving to a frozen stalemate. and B) the guys have become so durable that only the all-out unelegant blows would have any effect on them.
AFAIR we calculated once somewhere around here that with increase in strength durability grows at a higher rate that damaging ability, so super guys have a hard time damaging each other.

4. Speed is roughly proportional to power! (it's a hard rule in DBZ, so don't even think they are slow) An elaborate move would likely fail, the stronger opponent seeing through it or evading it as he is vastly faster than you (And the worst part: running from a stronger guy is impossible. As stronger = faster :( )

There are several characters in anime/comics who are based on different concepts of the martial arts, and each in their own way could take on a DBZ character and win.

Nuh-huh. Speed! Think Rock Lee's first fight against Gaara and turn it up to eleven.

and that is not something that you find in the Dragonball series.

Did you even watch it? See p.2

Kenshiro from "Fist of the Northstar" could take most Dragonball characters down because his style turns force against itself,

Dragonball probably. DBZ? There are guys who have to be careful and avoid hitting the planet under their feet, because one misplaced punch, and kaboom - you're in space now. Though, I wouldn't be surprized if he defeated them. Kenshiro's awesomeness is infinite.

for those of you who haven’t they stress that ranma’s sheer skill is an equalizer against the fighter in DB.

Not if he can't even see them move. The more serious Z fighters would be able run circles around him using him as a punching bag. Any fic that shows otherwise is poorly written. "she actually killed cell once" sums it up nicely.

Goku is at least as skilled as Ranma x Saiyan Power, Raaawr!

while the fighters in DB just raise their power level.

Aren't we forgetting Kaio-ken x20 ?

Not only does the hiryuu shoten uses the opponent's own power against him but it continues to do so after it is unleashed

There's a good chance they'll tear it asunder of overcharge it by having too much ki.
Or, more probably, an overpowered HSH would suck Ranma in and grinds him to dust. He has to stay at the epicenter, but some guys there can crumble mountains by just releasing their battle aura and make seas part, their blows measuring in megatons.
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