Could Ranma ever stand up to Dragonball /DBZ ?

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Postby claymade » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:09 am

lwf58 wrote:There's a very good reason why most folks who try to write Ranma/DBZ crossovers always power Ranma up to ridiculous levels, or make him a Saiyan, or whatever it is they do. It's because in a straight crossover, Ranma wouldn't last a minute longer than it took for one of the DBZ natives to get annoyed at him.

Perhaps, although I'm really a great fan of the "hobbit factor" that you can see in some (too few, really) stories. Frodo and Sam were hardly a match for the puniest of Sauron's flunkies, and yet it pretty much came down to them in the end. I think you could do some pretty good stuff along that same line between Ranma and DBZ.
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Postby nodregah » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:22 am

I realize that not many people take me seriously, but try to follow my thoughts.
Ranma in the DB/Z world.

Ranma would therefore fall into the rules of the world, meaning with Training he COULD compete as far as any of the humans in the Z-fighters. Some would argue against this, but I remind you again, you would look at the rules for the DB/Z world NOT the Ranma world.[/i]
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Postby Metroidvania » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:45 pm

Ranma would therefore fall into the rules of the world, meaning with Training he COULD compete as far as any of the humans in the Z-fighters. Some would argue against this, but I remind you again, you would look at the rules for the DB/Z world NOT the Ranma world

However, even with the example of Yamcha, kururin, Tienshinhan....
They still have limits on their powers, which are well below that of a saiyan, since they have no way to increase past their limits.
Take Kururin. Eventually, he realizes he doesn't have a chance of doing any sort of good, and stops. Same with all the other Earth Z-fighters.
Now, the androids by Dr. Gero is a possibility, depending on when in the series this is happening, but compared to Buu later, or SS3 Goku, they don't even have a chance.
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Limits in DBZ

Postby pspinler » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:03 pm

Metroidvania wrote:However, even with the example of Yamcha, kururin, Tienshinhan....
They still have limits on their powers, which are well below that of a saiyan, since they have no way to increase past their limits.

Yah, you'd have to invoke a deus-ex again to make Ranma (or any human) have a chance.
Unfortunately, one of the things I really dislike about the dragonball series, is that there's a huge, unlimited dues-ex built right into the series. All Ranma has to do is get an appropriate wish on a set of dragonballs, and *poof* limits all gone.
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Re: Limits in DBZ

Postby claymade » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:21 pm

pspinler wrote:Yah, you'd have to invoke a deus-ex again to make Ranma (or any human) have a chance.
Unfortunately, one of the things I really dislike about the dragonball series, is that there's a huge, unlimited dues-ex built right into the series. All Ranma has to do is get an appropriate wish on a set of dragonballs, and *poof* limits all gone.

Or the ever-popular "Spring of Drowned Sayajin," to use a Ranmaverse equivalent. Considering what Kiima managed to do with Akane, if Ranma has even one of the Sayajin on his side they could bring him up to their speed (at least half the time) very quickly via that route if they really needed to.
Of course, it would probably end up having to be Pan who did it. No way is Ranma lucky enough to get a power-up and get out of his old curse at the same time... :D
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Re: Limits in DBZ

Postby lwf58 » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:32 pm

pspinler wrote:Unfortunately, one of the things I really dislike about the dragonball series, is that there's a huge, unlimited dues-ex built right into the series. All Ranma has to do is get an appropriate wish on a set of dragonballs, and *poof* limits all gone.

I wonder about that... If it's true, then why didn't any of the humans in the series do that? All of the major characters except for the Saiyans hit limits in regards to their power, and then stopped growing. By the time of GT, the big players are pretty much just the Saiyans and their children. None of the other characters pulled any new surprises out of their hats. They just kept on doing what they could, without any big power-ups. Considering how many times they called on the dragon, you'd think that if they could, they'd have wished for the glass ceiling to go away. After all, they'd be better at protecting the Earth if they had.
It all amounts to the same thing in the end, though. Even if the wish idea worked, it would be an artificial power-up, and without it, Ranma would be dog meat.
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Re: Limits in DBZ

Postby Metroidvania » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:45 pm

lwf58 wrote:I wonder about that... If it's true, then why didn't any of the humans in the series do that? All of the major characters except for the Saiyans hit limits in regards to their power, and then stopped growing. By the time of GT, the big players are pretty much just the Saiyans and their children. None of the other characters pulled any new surprises out of their hats. They just kept on doing what they could, without any big power-ups. Considering how many times they called on the dragon, you'd think that if they could, they'd have wished for the glass ceiling to go away. After all, they'd be better at protecting the Earth if they had

Two possible reasons for that.
1, I think I may recall the dragon saying when someone asked that very question of sorts was that it was beyond his abilities to do so....or maybe it's more the person who made them, Kami/Dende. If say, the supreme kai (the old one) had made them, perhaps the dragon would be able to perform the same thing he did with Gohan's power level.
2. Another one of Toriyama's plot holes.
Again, as Larry said, still way too artificial to be used for Ranma, at least in almost any case I can think of
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Postby nodregah » Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:39 am

Metroidvania wrote, "However, even with the example of Yamcha, kururin, Tienshinhan....
They still have limits on their powers, which are well below that of a saiyan, since they have no way to increase past their limits."
I have been unable to keep up with this board in the past couple of days, so here is my delayed reply.
I know its odd for me to quote, well, me but here it is.
I wrote, " he COULD compete as far as any of the humans in the Z-fighters".
Through out Dragonball and the beginning of DBZ humans stillstood a chance. It was said earlier that in Dragonball Jackie Chun blew up the moon. BTW Jackie chun is Human.
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Postby runnerz » Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:29 am

(Deleted due to violation of rule G.)
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Postby Metroidvania » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:13 am

First off, runnerz, please watch the nested quotes. It's a major no-no.
I'm insulted that you find Pakistan's nukes so weak. Pakistan is capable of megaton strikes. In any case, it seems like nuclear fission would generate enough energy to hurt any of the DBZ fighters, considering the fact that the size of a DBZ energy blast is around the range of a nuclear blast. The only issue here is the ability to sustain, since most Z fighters generate that in high powered beam duels at the end of a saga.

As for your thoughts, though I do not have an expertise on the subject. I have to disagree. We have no clear, solid idea on just how explosive the ki used in DBZ is, as the results vary from the Destructo Disk to the Kamehameha to the Spirit bomb to the Galac Gun to the Beam Cannon...it's too varied. It depends on the person throwing them around and how much power is put in, which we lose the ability to follow after the Freeza arc when the power identifier visors break after Vegita's 24,000 power level, which is _way_ less than even the (real) androids, who have something around 16 MILLION, in the next arc.
The first stage of Super saiyan modifies the Z fighters power levels by around....5X or so, if I recall Freeza arc's calculations correctly, which leaves no chance for Ranma.
nodregah wrote:I have been unable to keep up with this board in the past couple of days, so here is my delayed reply.
I know its odd for me to quote, well, me but here it is.
I wrote, " he COULD compete as far as any of the humans in the Z-fighters".
Through out Dragonball and the beginning of DBZ humans stillstood a chance. It was said earlier that in Dragonball Jackie Chun blew up the moon. BTW Jackie chun is Human.

Ah, but even then, has Ranma really ever shown any indication of that?
In the earliest, earliest stages of DragonBall, when Goku's collecting the balls with Bulma, perhaps Ranma could win, but after Master Roshi's training, it'd be much less plausible to have Ranma beating either Goku or Kururin, and far less likely at any time in Z.
As for Jackie Chun, if memory serves, he was Master Roshi in disguise, (something about wanting to teach Goku and Kururin humility or whatnot) and as such, more evidence to my point.
The only _normal_ human fighter in DBZ is Hercule, of whom I'm sure Ranma could mop the floor with, but that's not really what you're asking.
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Postby nodregah » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:16 am

Metroidvania, Your view seems askew. In what ways are Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, and Roshi not _normal_? They all have had years of intensive training in the martial arts. So your saying that even though Ranma has had more intensive training than them, following the RULES of the DB/Z universe, that the only opponent he would be able to take on is Hercule. And people think I'm not playing with a full deck. You want to apply different rules to Ranma than the rest of the humans. If you follow that, there is no way to ever get a level field in which to compare.
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Postby Siden » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:20 am

Now bear with me, as this is all theory and conjecture, but here it goes:
Nodregah does have a point. As already stated earlier in this thread, if I recall correctly, the only way to have a crossover between Ranma and Dragon Ball is to alter the rules each universe operates on. Which one is altered depends on the basis for the crossover. For example: You are doing a Ranma -> DBZ crossover. Since you are merging the Ranma universe into the Dragon Ball universe, the rules change to the core Dragon Ball rules with a smattering of Ranma rules (like Jusenkyo) thrown in. Therefore all the Ranma characters now follow the same rules as the Dragon Ball cast. Basing on visible activity levels, Roshi is a couch potato while Happosai seems to be constantly on the move. Therefore Happosai could possibly be even more powerful than Roshi (based off anime 300+ years Happosai age, so as to match Roshi’s age). Ranma has as much if not more potential for power as Kururin* (the highest human power level, both in the manga/anime and in guess-work lists), since he would likely be constantly training with his own skill thrown on top of that. So with that in mind, Ranma has the potential to eventually exceed Frieza’s 3rd-form power level, possibly even match early 4th-form power levels**; though not without heavy training, time, and some good old dues-ex-machina. In terms of the Neko-Ken, it may act like a temporary, limited power boost, putting Ranma at the lower-end Saiyan’s level in terms of speed and power, but not abilities (since Neko-Ranma has never displayed any of Ranma’s techniques to my knowledge).
Now, if you want to play it as “Ranma the Saiyan”, then all previous bets are off. Ranma now only has the power boundaries that Goku and Vegeta display (as in, none). Though one way to preserve a level of drama and interest in the story is to level out Ranma’s skill + power vs. other Saiyan’s power, possibly in the form of some limitation. Such as: because of trauma from the Neko-Ken, Ranma can’t maintain SS forms without difficulty. Or some such plot point. Too many authors slap post-Saffron Ranma skill with SS Goku levels of power and make a boring “Ranma Ueber Allen”*** story.
On the other side of the coin, you have to Dragon Ball -> Ranma crossover. As with earlier, whichever universe is entering which MUST change its core rules to fit those of the established universe. If the Dragon Ball universe were to translate into Ranmaverse terms, the most major change would be the almost complete power lobotomy. Here we have Super Saiyans only capable of destroying city blocks instead of worlds. Gohan’s power level of 700 from the beginning of the series would Freiza’s maximum power. 1,500 would now be SS2 Gohan at maximum strength. Nappa’s 4,000? Kid Buu’s level now. Furthermore, to fit in with the confines of the Ranmaverse, the Z-fighters would have to be a lot more physical than previously, since now they don’t have nigh-unlimited amounts of Ki to throw around. This also means that some things, like Goku’s teleportation technique, would have to be explained away as magic, since the characters no longer possess the levels of Ki necessary to perform such feats. Flying at supersonic speeds? Not happening. Blow up the moon? Maybe Kid Buu can, maybe.
The early Dragon Ball power levels seem to be a good place to start since Roshi, the strongest human up until post-Raditz, has a power level of only 139, it can be said that Cologne and Happosai would be around that level, with the other characters varying dependant on that. The average human in DB seems to be around a 5 in terms of power, with the average martial artist being anywhere from 5-20. The more advanced fighters (Akane, Yamcha, etc.) run anywhere from 20-100 (Chi-Chi rates in at 73, so I’d put Akane around that level). Only the really exceptional fighters (Ranma, Goku) seem to rise above that 100 mark. However, that’s just beginning levels. We see later on that such levels would have to be surpassed, though I would be reluctant to allow un-transformed characters to reach higher than 600 (that means you Kururin and Human-Ranma).
Notes:
*}
Numbers from one of the two lists that seem to be on every DBZ site. Other list puts SS Goku’s power level during Namek saga at ~3,000,000. I used the larger set because of the “Oh Crap” factor the greater variance in the numbers possesses.
**}
Kururin’s power level is ~2,300,000 (as of World Tournament-Buu Saga). His power level is most likely lower than during Cell Saga since he spent the last few years lounging on a beach. Using the same percentage of power lost as Gohan, Kururin’s Cell Games power level comes out to ~2,760,000. Highest listed power level comes in at ~3,000,000, just before his death at the hands of Super Android 17.
***}
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Sources:
Power Level List – high
http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dbz/power-levels(new).htm
Power Level List – low
http://gohan_2002.tripod.com/DragonBallZPlatnium/id12.html
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Postby crystlshake » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:53 am

nodregah wrote:Metroidvania, Your view seems askew. In what ways are Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, and Roshi not _normal_? They all have had years of intensive training in the martial arts. So your saying that even though Ranma has had more intensive training than them, following the RULES of the DB/Z universe, that the only opponent he would be able to take on is Hercule. And people think I'm not playing with a full deck. You want to apply different rules to Ranma than the rest of the humans. If you follow that, there is no way to ever get a level field in which to compare.

Krillin doesnt have a nose, and Tien has a third eye. Yamcha and Roshi though as far as I know are human. Though all of them but Hercule are highly trained or have genetic abilities that far exceede the human norm. Hercule I think is one of the few recurring characters to show nothing beyond normal human achievement (with lots of training id asume but still doable).
Either way Id have to agree with Siden's thourough analysis. The power discrepency is what makes DBZ so difficult to cross with. Heck there was an anime card game that pulled from multiple sources called Ani-Mayhem that ran into a similar problem by trying to stay true to the sources. According to the Wiki entry its also one of the contributers to the game's demise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ani-Mayhem
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Postby Siden » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:22 pm

crystlshake wrote:Hercule are highly trained or have genetic abilities that far exceede the human norm. Hercule I think is one of the few recurring characters to show nothing beyond normal human achievement (with lots of training id asume but still doable).

The problem with using Hercule/Mr. Satan as a benchmark is that he is, quite litterally, a running gag. He displays far less ability than any other human martial artist in the Dragon Ball universe (not counting his "apprentices", who are part of the gag). Even the human characters from the original series, such as Namu, Agent Purple, young Yamcha, or Tao Pai Pai, exhibit more skill and power than Hercule/Mr. Satan ever does. If I recall correctly, even before training her Gohan said that Videl was far stronger than her father. Heck, Chi-Chi, Lanfan and Lunch display more power than he does (well okay, maybe not Lanfan).
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Postby runnerz » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:07 pm

Siden wrote:Now bear with me, as this is all theory and conjecture, but here it goes:
Nodregah does have a point. As already stated earlier in this thread, if I recall correctly, the only way to have a crossover between Ranma and Dragon Ball is to alter the rules each universe operates on. Which one is altered depends on the basis for the crossover. For example: You are doing a Ranma -> DBZ crossover. Since you are merging the Ranma universe into the Dragon Ball universe, the rules change to the core Dragon Ball rules with a smattering of Ranma rules (like Jusenkyo) thrown in. Therefore all the Ranma characters now follow the same rules as the Dragon Ball cast. Basing on visible activity levels, Roshi is a couch potato while Happosai seems to be constantly on the move. Therefore Happosai could possibly be even more powerful than Roshi (based off anime 300+ years Happosai age, so as to match Roshi’s age). Ranma has as much if not more potential for power as Kururin* (the highest human power level, both in the manga/anime and in guess-work lists), since he would likely be constantly training with his own skill thrown on top of that. So with that in mind, Ranma has the potential to eventually exceed Frieza’s 3rd-form power level, possibly even match early 4th-form power levels**; though not without heavy training, time, and some good old dues-ex-machina. In terms of the Neko-Ken, it may act like a temporary, limited power boost, putting Ranma at the lower-end Saiyan’s level in terms of speed and power, but not abilities (since Neko-Ranma has never displayed any of Ranma’s techniques to my knowledge).
Now, if you want to play it as “Ranma the Saiyan”, then all previous bets are off. Ranma now only has the power boundaries that Goku and Vegeta display (as in, none). Though one way to preserve a level of drama and interest in the story is to level out Ranma’s skill + power vs. other Saiyan’s power, possibly in the form of some limitation. Such as: because of trauma from the Neko-Ken, Ranma can’t maintain SS forms without difficulty. Or some such plot point. Too many authors slap post-Saffron Ranma skill with SS Goku levels of power and make a boring “Ranma Ueber Allen”*** story.
On the other side of the coin, you have to Dragon Ball -> Ranma crossover. As with earlier, whichever universe is entering which MUST change its core rules to fit those of the established universe. If the Dragon Ball universe were to translate into Ranmaverse terms, the most major change would be the almost complete power lobotomy. Here we have Super Saiyans only capable of destroying city blocks instead of worlds. Gohan’s power level of 700 from the beginning of the series would Freiza’s maximum power. 1,500 would now be SS2 Gohan at maximum strength. Nappa’s 4,000? Kid Buu’s level now. Furthermore, to fit in with the confines of the Ranmaverse, the Z-fighters would have to be a lot more physical than previously, since now they don’t have nigh-unlimited amounts of Ki to throw around. This also means that some things, like Goku’s teleportation technique, would have to be explained away as magic, since the characters no longer possess the levels of Ki necessary to perform such feats. Flying at supersonic speeds? Not happening. Blow up the moon? Maybe Kid Buu can, maybe.
The early Dragon Ball power levels seem to be a good place to start since Roshi, the strongest human up until post-Raditz, has a power level of only 139, it can be said that Cologne and Happosai would be around that level, with the other characters varying dependant on that. The average human in DB seems to be around a 5 in terms of power, with the average martial artist being anywhere from 5-20. The more advanced fighters (Akane, Yamcha, etc.) run anywhere from 20-100 (Chi-Chi rates in at 73, so I’d put Akane around that level). Only the really exceptional fighters (Ranma, Goku) seem to rise above that 100 mark. However, that’s just beginning levels. We see later on that such levels would have to be surpassed, though I would be reluctant to allow un-transformed characters to reach higher than 600 (that means you Kururin and Human-Ranma).
Notes:
*}
Numbers from one of the two lists that seem to be on every DBZ site. Other list puts SS Goku’s power level during Namek saga at ~3,000,000. I used the larger set because of the “Oh Crap” factor the greater variance in the numbers possesses.
**}
Kururin’s power level is ~2,300,000 (as of World Tournament-Buu Saga). His power level is most likely lower than during Cell Saga since he spent the last few years lounging on a beach. Using the same percentage of power lost as Gohan, Kururin’s Cell Games power level comes out to ~2,760,000. Highest listed power level comes in at ~3,000,000, just before his death at the hands of Super Android 17.
***}
German phrase. “Ueber allen” translates to “above all”. Often confused with “ueber alles”, which means “more than anything else”. “Ueber allen” refers to Ranma always winning, always being better than the rest of the cast.
Sources:
Power Level List – high
http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dbz/power-levels(new).htm
Power Level List – low
http://gohan_2002.tripod.com/DragonBallZPlatnium/id12.html

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