ShiroK wrote:Sorry maybe i used the wrong word when i used micron....Because clearly no blade known to man can slice several feet of stone near instantly without causing friction and super heating the stone causing explosive presure build up. To do that it would have to be virtually thiner than a molocule and seperate the molecules. I would normally define that as impossible, but it is clearly done on this page with the more basic Kijin
http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/Book28/RM28-129.html
Yes Ranma loosens the ground so the vacuum will suck it up, collects various junk in a bag, setting up a trap so that when a now aggravated Ryu fires the only attack he has it'll back fire on him by pulling the surrounding dirt and cuts the wrap, the the junk acting like a sandbag barrier protecting him, so all the junk is released right on top of Ryu. It's a simple, basic trick that should be obvious in the hows and whys of its operation. No real magic tricks involved beyond cramming in a little more junk then he has any right to cram in there.ShiroK wrote:As to the other move i won't argue about it's limits as they are never deffined. As far as i rember the move is used once in the serries and that is against the Sai Dai Kyuu Kijin Raisu Dan that it appears to block and contain.
What do mean drilled straight through his chest? No damage was shown to anything beyond the legs which fragmented off like shards of crystal. I've checked on that twice in recent history and I didn't notice any damage to Saffron's person beyond that. Further that Kima's explanation, in the Viz translation, is he ran out of energy and had to revert with no mention of termination of life functions tends to make me doubt that interpretation.lwf58 wrote: * Ice Dragon Breakthrough (Hiryū Hyou Tōppa): This is Ranma's final attack against Saffron in volume 38 of the manga, completed with the aid of the Phoenix people's artifact which produced an icy cold touch based effect. Ranma planned on throwing a whirlwind though a channel of cold air surrounded on both sides by the hot air from Saffron's blasts, and that in the swirl in the middle the whirlwind would become highly concentrated, squeezing the cold spiral into a razor's edge. He was unable to find an opportunity to use the move until Akane threw her frozen doll form at Saffron, tunneling through Saffron's heat and giving a Ranma a small channel of cold air to fire the Hiryū Hyou Tōppa. The refined Hiryū Shoten Ha drilled straight through Saffron's chest, defeating him.
FOG3 wrote:What do mean drilled straight through his chest? No damage was shown to anything beyond the legs which fragmented off like shards of crystal. I've checked on that twice in recent history and I didn't notice any damage to Saffron's person beyond that. Further that Kima's explanation, in the Viz translation, is he ran out of energy and had to revert with no mention of termination of life functions tends to make me doubt that interpretation.
lwf58 wrote:Yes, all true. Note that my statement was that he no longer required the opponent to follow him in a spiral, not that a spiral did not need to be made with hot and cold opposing forces.
He has to wait for or cause the environment or the opponent to create the conditions under which he can use it. He definitely cannot use one out of the blue, or create hot ki himself because he has to use the soul of ice technique to provide the "cold" side of the equation.
being extremely slow in picking up such a simple pattern as associated with ice skating.
three headed dog wrote:Of course there is nothing stopping him from creating hot ki to heat the environment then switch to the soul of ice providing both the hot and the cold needed. But basically as things stand (possible that he eventually figures away to provide both simultaneously like in a fanfiction I read in which he found a way to heat one hand and freeze the other) Ranma either needs his opponent or the environment to provide either a cold or hot aspect unless he is given time in which case he could create all required aspects. (set stuff on fire, use his own ki to heat/cool the area, etc...)
three headed dog wrote:I don't think Ranma needs to create much of a spiral to throw a Hiryu Shoten Ha? In these pages http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 35-040.gif, http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 35-041.gif the heat is provided by Genma and Soun but there appears to be no running in a spiral (they run directly at her). She probably does twist her arm into a partial spiral but it seems to me that everyone was surprised and this tornado was formed pretty much out of the blue with little to no spiral.
Acknowledged especially about the Gekkaja's influence. I just felt that drilled through his chest didn't seem to accurately describe what was going on there, ne?lwf58 wrote:It's very hard to really tell where the hit lands, because the drawing of the end of the whirlwind is vaguely done. It seems to be somewhere around the solar plexus, which would be lower chest/upper abdomen. You can call it either way, really.
As for the fragmentation, it looks like it started from his lower legs and is working its way up. Best guess is that it's a side effect of using the Gekkaja as part of the attack. No matter how you look at it, it's not directly related to the actual hit, because the freezing would be radiating out from his midsection if it were.
Causing major temperature change to an open environment? Since when did he jump about a hundred rungs? If it''s that simple why don't you try openning up your home to the enviroment and trying to make it cold when its hot and hot when it's cold with your heat pump. I take no responsibility on how much your bill jumps during an attempt at this because any reasonably sane person can see what I'm getting at.three headed dog wrote:Small nitpick but Ranma doesn't have to use the soul of ice at all depending on circumstances he could provide the hot ki while the opponent or environment provides the cold. Of course there is nothing stopping him from creating hot ki to heat the environment then switch to the soul of ice providing both the hot and the cold needed. But basically as things stand (possible that he eventually figures away to provide both simultaneously like in a fanfiction I read in which he found a way to heat one hand and freeze the other) Ranma either needs his opponent or the environment to provide either a cold or hot aspect unless he is given time in which case he could create all required aspects. (set stuff on fire, use his own ki to heat/cool the area, etc...)
I am sorely tempted to check up on the Viz translation of that, as it resembles the standard Sauron maneuver a little too much, and I know those Project guys will simply slip fanon things in. That said, nonsense. Guess what you forgot you needed? Something actually stating or making a point about there actually not being a spiral. They have a surprised reaction to her being able to do a HSH, but nothing about spiral or no spiral. Thus you have _no evidence_ of absence, and as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence you're stating a capability with exactly zero support. While that's fine for a subjective opinion it has no more weight as an objective statement then someone taking about a UFO invasion in RL.three headed dog wrote:I don't think Ranma needs to create much of a spiral to throw a Hiryu Shoten Ha? In these pages http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 35-040.gif, http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 35-041.gif the heat is provided by Genma and Soun but there appears to be no running in a spiral (they run directly at her). She probably does twist her arm into a partial spiral but it seems to me that everyone was surprised and this tornado was formed pretty much out of the blue with little to no spiral.
when compared to a rock. Poor rock.I have a theory on that. I don't think it has much to do with Ranma's learning ability since we are shown in several instances that Ranma learns at an increased rate
Took him what a week, with Genma showing him the only real trick, and getting the scroll from mama? Yeah, yeah he stole the foundation and other stupid stuff. In the actual fight the only thing that was new was sneaking around, carrying a wrap, and a few attack moves that could at the concept level be picked up in an hour easy. Aura suppression was in the curriculum several volumes ago (HSH), and while there's enough for people to hold a subjective view that he can go invisible, there's not enough for it be done so objectively. Hence 90% of it was stuff he already knew with just a little tweaking here and there and maybe an unusual concept thrown in.Umisenken
There's no such thing. He gives some smack during the fight about you'll learn the Umisen ken by me beating it into you, but that's it. Relatively standard fight smack talk, and utterly meaningless in any avenue you're trying to use it in.Ranma's surprise that Ryu hadn't figured out how to do the Umisenken after seeing it
Cologne: We're going to teach this to you in a week.Colognes surprise at Ranma figuring out the Hiryu Shoten Ha so quickly
[sarcasm]Yeah, learning three weapons you already clearly knew how to use when you made Akane look bad, watch for how many days, and use 99% already present skills, tactics, etc is a great feat.[/sarcasm]learning entire styles overnight
If he was a tenth of the man you wish to believe he is he'd simply spend a few minutes watching the other skaters leg movements and pick up on both the leg movement pattern and technique for braking. Then proceed to have only minimal problems in basic maneuvers.My theory is this besides Ranma's anger at Mikado clouding his thoughts some the reason I think Ranma was having so much trouble with ice skating is because of another technique he knows. The theory I have is that the same technique that Genma and Ranma use to walk on things that should not be able to support their weight (such as the fence holding Genma's Panda form or Kuno's sword) makes it so Ranma has difficulty on slippery surfaces this would explain why he had so much trouble on the ice and why he is always slipping on banana peels and such.
Of course she did it because she thought it'd be funny. Everything that happens in that manga happens because she thinks it'd be funny. That's the point.My other theory is she did it because it was funnier that way and the instance should be ignored since there is more evidence for Ranma learning techniques and stuff fast than against and I generally base my opinion on the side with more evidence for it.
FOG3 wrote:Of course, at that point that point all the median strength figures drop to within nominal limits for a normal human. Dexterity and adaptability drop to within human norms on the weak side due to being extremely slow in picking up such a simple pattern as associated with ice skating. Incidentally this actually is how the median version more or less behaves.
FOG3 wrote:[sarcasm]Yeah, learning three weapons you already clearly knew how to use when you made Akane look bad, watch for how many days, and use 99% already present skills, tactics, etc is a great feat.[/sarcasm]
Cologne: We're going to teach this to you in a week.
Almost a week later.
Cologne: Darn this isn't working, get Ryouga over here.
Ryouga gets his rear over there.
Cologne: Oh oops, I forgot to teach him the uppercut. Oh well, it appears he figured it out anyway.
Aura suppression was in the curriculum several volumes ago (HSH), and while there's enough for people to hold a subjective view that he can go invisible, there's not enough for it be done so objectively. Hence 90% of it was stuff he already knew with just a little tweaking here and there and maybe an unusual concept thrown in.
Of course she did it because she thought it'd be funny. Everything that happens in that manga happens because she thinks it'd be funny. That's the point.
what's the statistical spread between the years that it would take "most people" and Goku's near-instant usage of it? How long would it take those same "most people" Roshi was referring to learn the HSH or the Amaguriken?
Took him what a week, with Genma showing him the only real trick, and getting the scroll from mama
Causing major temperature change to an open environment
SSH this is a technique that's apparently so utterly intuitive you can do by accident
Anyways there is no spiral movement for the last Hiryu Shoten Ha -the one used to break the dragon tap (can argue that since he was in a tornado there was a spiral but since the new one he created went in a different direction he would most likely have needed to creat a spiral in the direction he wanted the new tornado to go).
three headed dog wrote:No spiral used Hiryu Shoten Ha's is really only my opinion because I can't really prove it but you also can't disprove it - all you can really say is that the author was just lazy but that doesn't disprove it. My opinion is based on that they run directly at her, we do not see anything that shows her moving even the least bit in a spiral - no movement lines until after the fist is thrown then spiral lines show up.
And you also have to worry about the style issues. Ie, what precisely is required to learn it. Skillwise it could be pitifully easy and just require years to build up the power to actually achieve any results - in fact I'd be inclined to believe that, considering DBZ's focus on power.
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