Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Discuss the Ranma series in this forum.

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:25 pm

F_Forward Gone Nuts wrote:It's been established in several threads on this board that simply breaking off the engagements or the Seppuku pledge would result in a massive loss of face that, in this particularly warped world, would probably be tantamount to a death sentence. That, and having Nodoka randomly turn out to be clan head with the power to cancel the engagement is really, really uninspired and boring.

But what if one were to attack the nature of the contracts themselves? What if it could be proven that the Ranma who put his handprint on the Seppuku contract was actually an alien in disguise at the time? Or that the Genma that agreed to Mr. Kuonji's deal was actually... I dunno, a magical clone?

I'm not putting these forward as actual plot twists; merely suggesting them as a painless way of weasling out of the massive net of "honor" and the like. Given that Ranma and co. once put on a freaking play to trick Happosai into changing Pantyhose-Taro's name, I don't think that setting up a massive Scooby-Doo Hoax like this is too out of character.

So, resident experts on the nature of honor in RL Japan and how it relates to the Ranma-verse... sound feasible?

Well... I have seen something like that... in several different storylines.

for example, in two different storiess, The real Ranma died, and Ranma was not the real Ranma, but someone used in his place... as such, all of them except Shampoo were not valid, helped when they were able to go to his grave... Turned out on top of that, in one he was an alien and ended up with Nabiki.

In a variation of that, one turned out Ranma and Ryoga were switched at a young age. All engagements were switched to him.

In a completely different approach... Nabiki figured out that the seppuku contract was not in fact a seppuku contract, ut a way for the Saotomes to divest themselves of dishonor and it being a clever (for them) attempt at premeditated murder.

In another, a fake contract holder showed up, with a contract predating all the others, and blaming Ganma... Since everyone had seen so many of Ganma's blunders and acts of stupidity, no one would believe him.

There have been several stories that had others (without Ranma consulted) arranged to have Ranmas name changed to that of his grandfather or other distant relative... since all agreements other than Shampoos were specifically with a heir to the saotomes...

The most innovative and humorous approach was where ranma had a run into with a high ranking judge... he decided to help Ranma turn the tables and trick his parents into signing a seppuku contract to the effect if they do not raise him properly and keep the family honor in line, he can kill them... Thus they will have to clean up the mess they made of his life. Regrettibly, this has not been continued... but I still pull it out to read on occasion for a laugh... Heh... even promised to practice being the 2nd... so they would have nothing to worry about...
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2736
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby Drawde » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:44 pm

In Japan, going to someone else to help with an honor problem causes loss of face. So, even if the seppuku contract was legal (which it isn't), having to get the legal system involved to enforce or break it would be just as bad as deliberately breaking it. Simply getting someone to mediate between the two sides makes it look like you can't do things on your own, which results in loss of face.

Finding a way around a contract is often just as bad as simply breaking it. For one it makes it look like you never intended to honor it. And it also, in the eyes of the public, looks like it was simply broken. BOTH sides will loose face if a publicly known contract isn't followed through, regardless of why. Even both sides deciding an agreement isn't a good idea anymore still looks like the contract was broken. So, for example, if Ranma doesn't marry a Tendo for any reason (another illegal contract) it will look like, to others, that someone broke the contract. No matter the reason the public will still consider both families to have lost honor.

Also, the Japanese legal system tries to ignore anything involving "honor" if at all possible. Many aspects of the old honor system are currently illegal so they'd have to side against it. And, as mentioned above, it makes both sides look incompetent.
Unless I say otherwise, if I'm discussing Ranma canon, I'm talking about the MANGA.
Drawde
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 482
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:14 pm

F_Forward Gone Nuts wrote:Could the scenario I put above really qualify as "getting someone to help"? I don't think that Ranma and co. would need a middleman like a judge or a cop to demonstrate that someone else was the one who had agreed to all those contracts.

All they'd need to do is convince most of Nerima that an impostor that is in no way related to the Tendo/Saotome/whatever families was the one that made all those honor contracts. The law doesn't even need to be involved. Would they really lose face if they weren't even the ones who drew up or agreed to those contracts?

Ehhh... the issue I see with this is how to prove it was an imposter... *no one* would believe Genma after all the other crap, and even if they did once, I doubt they would a 2nd... or more times... and for some of them, Ranma might well have been either too young or not even born...
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2736
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby mondu_the_fat » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:38 pm

Would they really lose face if they weren't even the ones who drew up or agreed to those contracts?


Imagine this:

A girl suddenly finds videos of someone who looks exactly like her in youtube boinking a donkey. Not only does it look exactly like her, they have the same, the same address, the same named parents, same e-mail, same IP, and she also owns a donkey that looks exactly the same as the one in the video.

But it isn't her. Maybe its her evil twin or something. Or it was faked very realistically.

Even if she comes out with proof that it isn't her, people will still look at her differently, because not everyone will believe this "evidence".

She loses face, through no fault of her own.

To put it another way, OJ Simpson was acquitted. In the eyes of the law, he isn't guilty. Does society treat him like that? Was his "honor" restored when he was declared not guilty?
"So Igor wasn't kidding. Most people just ensure they won't die cold and alone by making friends...I gain superpowers and have mysterious voices tell me I did a good job. My life is a goddamn mess."
-- Minato Arisato, My Life is a Goddamn Mess
mondu_the_fat
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 919
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:37 am

People are not always the most understanding or rational of creatures. This is especially true if the person whose character is put into question is not close enough in heart or mind to the people that hear about whatever is going on with them. Even if it turns out to be false, they may feel better thinking that it might still be true, or that they're guilty of doing something else that's just as bad. Particularly if someone wants to feel better about themselves, people can be quite bitter and spiteful about these things; they project dirtiness onto others so as to appear less dirty by comparison to others and/or themselves. This manner of behavior is not dependent on any notion of honor, but I think it's still relevant.
Crescent Pulsar R
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4122
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:09 pm

F_Forward Gone Nuts wrote:True, but then again, I think that the OJ thing was partially because there was no one else around to take the blame. Society had to vent somehow.


But this involves Genma... Do you really expect everyone to believe Genma if he said that the other engagements were made by a fake...
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2736
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby claymade » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:06 am

It's worth noting that there's one thing fans tend to forget when they talk about how supposedly hopeless Ranma's situation is with respect to the "massive net" of contracts that there's supposedly no possible escape from. Whatever people's theories are as to how RL Japanese honor maps onto the Ranmaverse--or what kind of face-loss would result from various ways of responding to the contracts--there is one absolute, incontrovertible fact that has to be taken into account if you want your interpretation to be at all consistent with what has actually happened in canon.

Namely, that the characters have already broken one such marriage contract. Successfully. And it didn't take anything more than: "Hey Picolet! I know I'm contracted to marry you... but I challenge you to a quirky martial arts duel before a huge audience, with the stakes set at me getting out of the contract if I win!"

If negotiating out of a contract in such a way would really result in "a massive loss of face that, in this particularly warped world, would probably be tantamount to a death sentence," then the involved parties would, in fact, be dead. If negotiating out of the contract would result in a tormented, angst-ridden shunning from one's peers, then we certainly see no sign of that either in peoples' subsequent treatment of the Tendos or Ranma--nor do any of them seem to become particularly emo after the experience.

In short, whatever you want to say the consequences are of pulling off that kind of a contract-avoidance are in the Ranmaverse, those consequences have already been applied to the characters at least once already... and it doesn't seem to have bothered them terribly much.
claymade
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 944
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:40 am

While that makes enough sense to me, there are two things I'd like to point out. The first is that the other party isn't Japanese. The other is that the contract/promise was kept to those involved and wasn't made public; no one else knew why Ranma might have gone through bridal training (they spoke of it as if it were a rumor), and they also assumed (or were told) that it was a rematch for his earlier loss to Picolet. Seeing as neither Soun or his daughters wanted the contract/promise to be followed through with, I can only assume that they don't lose face with themselves because it's to their benefit. That's how it seems, anyway.
Crescent Pulsar R
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4122
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby claymade » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:24 am

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:While that makes enough sense to me, there are two things I'd like to point out. The first is that the other party isn't Japanese. The other is that the contract/promise was kept to those involved and wasn't made public; no one else knew why Ranma might have gone through bridal training (they spoke of it as if it were a rumor), and they also assumed (or were told) that it was a rematch for his earlier loss to Picolet.

Well, okay, I suppose you could argue that nobody else knew about it. Still, that would require that the Chardins had decided to keep the existence of the engagement a complete and total secret to all other non-Chardins for all those years--an attitude that's particularly odd when compared with things like Picolet jubilantly proclaiming the Tendo girls as his future wife (to the entire school) on first meeting them.

Similarly, after the duel is agreed to, you never get any signs during any of it that what Ranma, the Tendos and the Chardins are doing is actually some secret shameful thing that would utterly ruin them if anyone were to realize what was actually going on. They have the match in front of a huge crowd, introduce Ranma to the crowd as Picolet's bride-to-be, and freely banter during it about the stakes during the battle. Even if no one actually managed to put the precise details together, there's never any point where anyone involved in the whole affair is portrayed as being anything resembling secretive about it.

Either way, the larger point remains that Ranma and the Tendos, at the very least, are perfectly willing to try and re-negotiate marriage contracts like they did with Picolet's, without any visible qualm of honor-related trepidation. (And they seem to expect others to be amenable to it as well. As opposed to Picolet just rejecting the offer with an incredulous "um, why would I even consider risking accepting a martial arts challenge whose nature is so despicable that it would destroy my life with dishonor if the terms of it were discovered--at no gain to myself?")
claymade
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 944
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:32 pm

Wait, wait, wait. Is that how it happens in the anime? (I can't remember.) That's not how it is in the manga. While he makes a toast to his future bride (to the three Tendo sisters), and with an audience, he never says anything about the reason why. (And no one seems to react to his declaration, so maybe they didn't even hear it and thus know even that much.) And still, being that the Chardin family isn't Japanese (I'm assuming), I don't see how they would be affected in the same way about honor (and how they accepted Ranma's challenge despite the deal that had been made might be a sign of it).

Beyond that, I don't see how not seeing signs of someone being secretive about something shameful is a sure sign of anything. Not everyone shows such signs, for one thing. For another, one can't assume that one country's culture will bear the same significance to that of another's, beyond being respectful of it. At least, I don't think a French person would be obligated to observe the Japanese way of thought about honor, since that would go well and beyond taking off one's shoes before entering the house proper. And so long as no one else knows/finds out about it, I don't see why a Japanese person couldn't take advantage of a foreigner if it's to their benefit.

I half-agree with what you said before; it's just a matter of degree. While I think that honor does play a role in Ranma 1/2, it's nowhere near as serious as some think it to be. But that seems fairly typical from what I've seen of many other manga and anime series, especially if the series in question is of a comical nature. Usually honor doesn't become an issue except for when it comes to specific things, or it's used to set up a premise (I'm looking at you, harem genre). Then one has to take into account the context, and Ranma 1/2 isn't exactly a serious series (much less bound to the laws of physics).

Anyway, what I ultimately think is that the story in question is a bad example. (That, and I think it's wrong to assume that every Japanese person will behave a certain way, as if it's inherent to them from birth.) Take Ukyo's story, for instance. While Genma doesn't seem to have a problem stealing dowries (or attacking people that he owes money to in order to avoid them), she was so ashamed of what happened that she abandoned her femininity and lived instead as a boy. Plus, there's the fact that Ranma has two fiancees and nothing at all has been done to resolve it. (It's like he has two geis, where he's damned no matter what he does.) So, basically, when it comes to honor, Ranma 1/2 is like okonomiyaki (the author did what she wanted with it at her own convenience).
Crescent Pulsar R
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4122
 

Re: Could the contracts themselves be undermined?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:57 am

Ranma's canon feelings about the engagements.

Viz Volume 15 Page: 196

Ranma: Man, it's great to hear you admitting it! I mean, that I'm an innocent victim of your sibling squabble, and this engagement thing doesn't really mean anything at all, and it's even worse getting stuck with the greedy sister than with the violent one! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Last edited by Zwzn on Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Next

Return to Specific Series: Ranma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users