Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

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Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:51 am

I was pursuing a story idea that focused on Ninomiya Hinako when a particular detail came to my attention. Since it's not a detail that needs to be explained in the story, I figured I'd pose my inquiry simply out of curiosity.

Regarding what Hinako wears, it seems that her clothes and (perhaps arguably) her shoes are sized to fit her youngest form, not her oldest. While the clothes could show that they are made for a smaller person (the hems of the skirts that start at the knees being pulled up to the upper thigh, and the sleeves of the long-sleeved tops being pulled back from the wrist to at least halfway up the forearm, for example), there seems to be no apparent change in her shoes (when she's wearing high heels, in particular, which have hard soles). Whether it's due to the size or elasticity of the clothes doesn't matter, because the soles of the shoe make it a different matter entirely. That seems to be the case to me, at least. The clothes don't grow when she grows, so why should something less malleable (the shoes) grow?

So, I wondered how old she would have to be for her feet to not undergo any significant growth. If that is indeed possible, considering how much difference there appears to be between the two ages that she assumes. There are a few things that may need to be considered, though. The first that comes to mind is that she's first seen as a transfer student at a high school, and her height, when compared to other characters parallel to her (I had a lot of fun doing that), usually puts her within range for such an assumption to be possible (only a half of a head shorter than Akane and Ukyo, which is about what Ranma's female body's height is (last time I checked, although it may vary over time)). Then again, that might not be an issue as far as the reality of grade-skipping is concerned. Another thing is her pre-teen behavior, which would be at odds with any estimation putting her in her teens, unless her true age is her oldest form. Yet another concerns whether her shoes would be binding enough to stunt the growth of her feet as the rest of her body grows. Finally, there seems to be an unrealistic trend when it comes to depicting the size of adults in respect to the size of teenagers. It's not uncommon for the adults to be significantly taller/bigger than teenagers in this medium, even though, realistically, those in their mid to late teens wouldn't realistically have much of a chance of having enough growth left in them to meet or beat the size of said adults.

I could be wrong on that last part, at least, but that's what you're here for. Please leave anything remotely like "the author's whim" at the door, because that would defeat the purpose of this discussion. Which includes magical resizing shoes (since there's no evidence to support or reason to believe that she would own such a pair (or a bunch of pairs), and saying "it's Ranma 1/2" would be a cop out). If I wanted to hear that, I could have told myself and this topic wouldn't have come into existence. Whatever reasoning anyone uses beyond that, whether matching any of my own observations or not, I don't expect there to be a definitive answer for what her age is. One that sounds plausible will do just fine, though; and the explanation doesn't have to be restricted to her shoes.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby J. St.C. Patrick » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:50 am

My niece, the one who is not DIO, is 12 and can wear her mother's shoes, though they are a little big - more in width than length. Her mom is 5'4" while she herself is 4'6"
When my other niece, the one who is DIO, was 11 she started borrowing her mother's shoes and by the time she was 14 they fit properly. Her mom is 5'8'".

DIO is much older now and her mother borrows her shoes.

Alas, I do not know what size shoes my sisters, my nieces' mothers, wear.

So the answer to your question based on my observation is somewhere between 11 and 14.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby TerraEpon » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:44 pm

Hinako's age is obviously not whatever her younger form is -- remember Happosai would have still been locked away at that point if she was.
I do remember one fanfic that suggested she was actually the average of the two (I think it said 19 or so).
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:47 pm

Well, unless there's something unnatural that's responsible for her proportions, she appears to go through puberty, which would suggest that she's either prepubescent or at the nadir of adolescence at the start. Except she seems about as tall as Ranma's female body, who is probably below average height for her age group. (Which would still make Hinako tall if she really was a pre-teen.) Now, if her real age happened to be between the two that she assumed (let's say nineteen, as was mentioned), perhaps the change is a matter of maturity rather than age, in the same way that someone's growth can be stunted because of their diet. In that case, she would always be nineteen, except one body is the result of a full-fledged puberty while the other is not. It sort of makes sense considering that she gained her ability because of a health issue, in order to "fix" it. And stealing someone's vitality, making them look unhealthy instead of old, matches better with a change in maturity than it does with age. Because she's stuck with an immature body most of the time, that could possibly explain the trouble she has with acting her age; whether due more to nature or nurture I can only guess. Hmmmm...

Anyway, if we take Pat's observations at face value, then at the very least it might be possible for a young girl or young teen to have approximate-sized feet for an older person's footwear, wearable if not too loose (in some way) to be practical. I've been hearing that girls are growing breasts and having periods earlier than normal all of the time, which normally corresponds with growth spurts at some point, so that may lend a bit more credence to this. *Shrugs*
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby mondu_the_fat » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:28 pm

Foot length is equal to length of forearm, give or take an inch.

Given that her arm is definitely taller (with somewhat correctly proportional arms) in her adult form than her child form, her foot grows. 1) We just don't just don't see it. 2) Takashi was being lazy.

If you want to ask the question "how old is she for her feet not to grow", then this is like asking "why is Ranma sexually attracted to Kuno?" Ranma isn't, and Hinako's foot grows.

If you want to ask "how old would a person have to be for their bones to stop growing," that's a better question. The answer is 16 (ie, when a person stops growing taller/bones stop growing), give or take a few years, with exceptions (gigantism, for example).

http://jjv5.net/WIN/height_age_girls_2_20.jpg

The graph above reveals that the p50 in the US (ie half of the women in the US are taller or equal than this, the other half is shorter or equal than this) for girl's height is reached at about 16 years. A similar table for Japan exists, but I'm off to go out right now so can't search. Maybe later.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:38 pm

mondu_the_fat wrote:If you want to ask "how old would a person have to be for their bones to stop growing," that's a better question. The answer is 16 (ie, when a person stops growing taller/bones stop growing), give or take a few years, with exceptions (gigantism, for example).

Well, that's basically what I was asking. ^^;

So, what you're saying is that, if feet grow in conjunction with the rest of the body, by seeing any other part of the body grow (particularly the forearm, for comparison) would mean that the feet are growing, too? Which basically means "Takahashi was being lazy" or "magical resizing shoes." Bleh... I was hoping against that, but... Can't be helped. Well, at least there's the maturity change instead of age change theory... for now. <_<
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:34 pm

Mercy sakes, I'm almost 70 and my feet are still growing. And you should have seen my uncle's ears! (At least they didn't come with the optional hair sticking out.)

On the other hand, I'm several inches shorter now.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:35 pm

Feet are like ears? :O
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:48 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:Feet are like ears? :O

Ears just keep on growing, and if you get old enough, they sometimes have a tuft of hair growing out of the auditory canal. Fortunately, this seems to happen much more vigorously to men.

http://medjournalwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/our-ears-grow-throughout-lifetime.html
http://www.esquire.com/style/answer-fella/ear-hair-removal-1208

As for feet, I can only suggest they spread out from many years of supporting increasing weight. This might not be a factor for people that lose weight as they age, but I am not one of that fortunate crew.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby mondu_the_fat » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:13 am

Reminds me of Never Ending Story. The only real indication of the Childlike Empress' age were her ears (of course, the movie doesn't have that).

Incidentally, this is why many statues of the Buddha have large ears. Wisdom = age = large ears.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Shanami » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:31 am

Ellen Kuhfeld wrote:As for feet, I can only suggest they spread out from many years of supporting increasing weight. This might not be a factor for people that lose weight as they age, but I am not one of that fortunate crew.



Kinda.

So... as someone who actually has to have a rather intimate knowledge of growth pathways for everything in the body by this point in my career (med student about to take boards), this is how it works (simplified, since I'm sure you all don't care about all the minutiae):

The bones in the feet grow the same way the others do in your body. The actual length of each bone is determined by a number of factors, genetics being the first and probably most important one assuming that nothing goes wrong. Basically, if everything works properly, genetics determines bone length. The actual mechanism of growth, however, is intimately tied to 3 hormone levels, though others play lesser roles. These hormone levels reflect nutritional status. Being malnourished or overfed both can lead to growth retardation.

Growth Hormone is the primary determining factor for the amount of IGF-1 that your body produces. These 2 hormones play the largest role in actually causing the bones to grow in length. Gigantism, as mentioned earlier on the thread, is when a child has too much growth hormone, causing the bones to grow longer faster than they should.

The sex-hormones, testosterone and estrogen, play 2 major roles in bone growth. First, like GH and IGF-1, they increase the rate at which the length of bones increases. This is why you have a growth spurt in puberty. But, unlike GH and IGF-1, which merely cause the bones to grow, the sex-hormones cause closure of the growth plate within a few years. The earlier you start puberty, the taller you will be for your age group, but the shorter you will be on average because of this.

The bones in the feet and hands, due to just how many of them there are, cause those two areas of the body to enlarge to closer to their maximum size a bit earlier than the rest of the skeleton in many people (though this isn't biologically a fact in general), which makes sense since the feet have to support the weight of the frame of the body, it makes a lot of sense for them to grow faster first and slower later.

Now, by the end of puberty, all linear bone growth is stopped and the final bone lengths are reached. This is true for the feet. They can, however, expand slightly with age and weight gain, but that isn't actually a process of bone growth. As you get heavier you put more strain on the tendons and ligaments that hold the foot bones in place. Much of the expansion you see with age is that these connectors loosen, so the foot naturally spreads out more. Connective tissues can also be laid down to increase the surface are as you get heavier. A final factor, as the heart gets weaker (assuming you are heading towards heart failure) or the kidney starts to fail, you get fluid buildup in the lower extremities, leading to increased foot size.

But... from a sheer growth perspective. By the end of puberty you have reached your final foot size.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:04 am

Shanami wrote:But... from a sheer growth perspective. By the end of puberty you have reached your final foot size.

Growth /= "get bigger"?
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:37 am

Hum. Let's assume that Hinako is old enough to be starting puberty, or has been pubescent for a year. Let's also assume that her final shoe size will be an eight at the end of puberty. What would the estimate of her shoe size be for either prior time in her development? I just want a good idea of the possible difference in shoe size between the finish line and early pubescent development.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby mondu_the_fat » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:47 pm

Forearm length is approximately the same as foot length.

How that converts to foot sizes, I have no idea. Foot sizes are as flexible as dress sizes -- a size 4 by one manufacturer is a size 3 or 5 by somewhere else. Children also have a different system for shoes sizes than adults.


This may prove useful:

http://sarti.us/sarti/files/ChildFootAndShoeSizes.pdf

tl;dr -- at age 12, the foot is 90% of adult size.
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Re: Hinako's apparent age based on shoe size

Postby Shanami » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:37 pm

Ellen Kuhfeld wrote:Growth /= "get bigger"?


Depends how you mean. you'll notice I did say Linear growth a lot, and I was often specifically referring to bones, not the entirety of the foot itself. Does swelling = growth? Not to a medical professional, to a lay person, possible.
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