Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

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Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:43 am

We know the Musk did not want weak human women, and we have no reason to think they could not have obtained human women if they had wanted them. The Musk wanted the children to be human animal hybrids, and did not care that the mother would be useless for anything other then making a baby. We actually know the transformed animal would literally try to eat the Musk. The Musk clearly did not want human "wives" or children.

What reasons could there be for the Musk making or at least acquiring the Locking Ladle, and Unlocking Kettle? They seem like they would be difficult to make or obtain. There would be more then one set if they were easy to get.

When ever I think about this i keep coming back to the babies. The babies are the only reason the Musk seemed to want to curse the animal. There is no reason to think the curse will lock if the victim become pregnant, and the change in form could easily kill the unborn baby especial if the mother was male to begin with.

So what other reason would the Musk lock the animal in human form?
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:25 am

One reason would be to ensure that they stay a human female long enough for fertilization to take place. Coming into contact with hot water before or not too long after sex could ruin the whole attempt: the former because there is a difference in when and why humans and animals become fertile, so an animal-turned-human's menstrual cycle might have to start at the beginning each time (which would result in a two-week wait every time); and the latter because humans and animals aren't compatible, so becoming an animal before the sperm reaches the egg would result in failure. (Since they don't mate with animals-turned-human anymore, it's no longer an issue.)

Another reason might have to do with discretion. The Musk seem like the sort of people who don't want attention, especially if it were to interfere with their training. It would be one thing if villages in the area came across what would appear to be a wild, human savage or a meek/frightened, stupid person; which, depending on who found them, might take advantage. But it would be another thing if people saw animals becoming human, and vice versa, showing up here and there for some unknown reason. (This is no longer an issue, too.)

Those two mainly apply to the ladle. As for the kettle? Well, they are playing with fire. Accidents are bound to happen, since they go right to the spring. I'm sure that Herb had been relieved to know of the kettle's existence.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby mondu_the_fat » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:11 am

1) children

Who knows if a fetus would remain viable if the mother transforms back into animal form?

2) Sex slaves

I'm pretty sure, even as a culture dedicated to martial arts , sex outside procreation is still in demand.

3) Labor

Despite being of animal intelligence, opposable thumbs are generally more useful than many other animal forms. Sure, some animals are more useful in animal form, but animals you can always get somewhere else. A animal intelligence laborer with opposable thumbs? Priceless.

4) Control

Actually everything about keeping them in human form is about control. But the more obvious one would be things like dragons or whatever potentially dangerous forms out there.

Simply put, it is more convenient to keep them in human form. And it is even _more _ convenient, if you can keep them in human form, then change them back into animals if it isn't so convenient anymore, hence the kettle.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby Wyrd » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:53 am

Alternatively, the Musk are not the ones that made the ladle and kettle, they merely took advantage of them. Yes, Herb considers them Musk artifacts, but that could just be because they are so important to the history of the Musk and have been owned by the Musk for so long, not because they actually made them.

They could have been made by some wizard who studied Jusenkyo, or be even older and have been made by the same people who made Jusenkyo in the first place, the people who made the dragon and phoenix taps and the Kinjacan and Gekkaja. The pools and their affects could have been an unintended side effect of these fountains, with the locking ladle and opening kettle being created when the effects became known. There could also be a third artifact that removes the curse, they could have thought removing the curse was so easy that they didn't bother making a third artifact, or it could be that the characters are right that all they need to do to be cured is jump in the nannichuan for the guys and the nyannichuan for Shampoo.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby LawOhki » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:08 am

Most of those are taking a very dark look at it, making the Musk society based on rape and slavery. The Chinese factions do have some dark elements to them like the kiss of death thing. But I do not think that the Musk were supposed to be so incredibly dark. (Like Her War by Materia Blade)

It may just be the english wording but the way Herb phrased it makes it seem that they are kept away from women until they are to be wed, but that doesn't exclude contact afterward. Herb, other than being peeped on, was not treated differently by Lime and Mint. A society that was based on such extreme sexism wouldn't have a woman leading men.(Unless of course they had a really good women's rights movement.) They were ignorant not malicious.

- Locking Ladle
Used to lock the transformed animal as a woman. This was a LONG time ago that they did this, finding hot water is rather unlikely outside of a hot spring, and the new woman would not know about this little quirk of Jusenkyo. So if the worry of hot water is a small concern, this makes me think that they intended to actually make them into wives by integrating them into their society. Positive reinforcement over negative. This would have many problems like what feral children have but magic exists in Ranma-verse so it's not that unlikely for the Musk to have some way to give them human intelligence. It might even be something the ladle does considering how the monkey Herb threw in acted. Herb wanted to learn about women,it'd be startling stupid for him to think he will learn about human women through a monkey that was just given the body of one.

- Unlocking Ladle
If there was no way to give them the needed skills like language and reasoning then some are obviously going to be unable to adapt. So they use the ladle to unlock them and use some other artifact or Jusenkyo to return them to what they were permanently. The effort to actually keep these feral women would be rather taxing on what is supposed to be a smaller group. Let alone to be able to actual force them to do any kind of labor like planting crops properly. Keeping up the food supply would be the womans primary job if the men were training in martial arts all the time.

Alternatively, if they were integrated than it would be possible to unlock the curse and allow them back that freedom to spend time as they were. It could even be a way to have the children learn to be more like their wild halves by training with them, which would keep the illusion of women not being around them. That still comes down to brainwashing but it's less wretched and horrifying, but is actually sustainable rather than just use and throw away.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:29 pm

My theory is starting to be several theories - that there are several conjoined reasons as to why the Ladle is so important. The Kettle, with its ability to undo the Ladle, is clearly for accidents like Herb's, but it's obviously less important to them seeing as how it ended up in Japan for so many years before Herb had an accident and was the first person to seek it out... was it ever stated how/why it ended up in Japan, anyway?

Anyway, the first reason is reproduction. Switching back and forth has got to do a number on even a female-beast to female-human's cycle, given the differences in oestrus. There's also no proof that being pregnant locks the curse - if anything, it makes more sense that it does not, seeing as how this is a curse (it's supposed to make life an intolerable hell for you) and it doesn't display any lesser tendencies to try and keep the host from changing when it would be dangerous to do so. In fact, it actually seems to try and activate/deactivate when least wanted, as seen in the first Nodoka story, and the Picolet Chardin story shows that it's quite possible to change back even when doing so is physically dangerous - the iron corset fitted onto Ranma-chan is agonizingly painful for Ranma-kun, possibly even causing internal injuries. This means that, even if the beast ends up willing to be with her rapist - sorry, "husband", one dose of hot water at the wrong time would destroy the embryo.

The second is because, for whatever reason, the Musk want the curse "diluted" somehow. In fanfics it's almost inevitable that the child of a cursed mother will inherit her curse, and even the "curse of the father influences the baby" is fairly common in its own right (look at old fanfics where Ranma does end up having a kid with Akane or whoever; something like 9 times out of 10, it's a girl because he had the Nyanniichuan curse when she was conceived). Ranma does have a nightmare in which Ryoga's sons by Akane all inherited their father's curse, in the episode "Ranma goes back to Jusenkyo at last?", for however valid that is. Even if the curse doesn't pass on entirely, which seems to be something they want to avoid given they didn't just go to the simple stage of cursing themselves in the appropriate beast-springs, it's possible that the child of a non-sealed mother would be even more bestial than the Musk seen... unless their humanity is the result of several steady generations of human mothers showing through.

The third theory is sealing; that being exposed to the Ladle may not just trap a Jusenkyo victim in their cursed form, but also prevents them from being curseable with subsequent applications of Jusenkyo water. This makes sense; although the Nyanniichuan is near the entrance to Jusenkyo, the last thing you want after going to all the trouble to get a beast into the girl spring is for her to get away, fall into a different animal spring, and then successfully escape entirely. After all, the Spring of Drowned Duck apparently isn't too far from the Spring of Drowned Girl, and no martial artist in the series can fly.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby Zwzn » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:35 pm

Is there any sign of naturally occurring hot water near the cursed springs? It doesn't seem like the Musk would have a hard time keeping the transformed animals away from hot water.

The transformed animals really wouldn't make good sex slaves or wives because they will literally try to eat a person, and act like the creature they once were. If the musk wanted sex slaves or wives they could just get humans. Keep in mind that Ranma1/2 is infact a very dark series when you actually look at the groups involved, and the events that are happening.

by SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote: and no martial artist in the series can fly.
That is actually debatable.

I don't think Saffron and his people have large enough wings to actually use them to fly like they do, and Taro has the same problem.

Herb seems to have a sort of flying technique, and it would make sense since dragons are often shown to fly.

Rouge in cursed form is shown to fly.

Ranma is shown to maneuver in ways that seem like he may know something similar to herb or Rouge, but not true flight at the time of the series.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:59 pm

Sorry, allow me to correct that: no martial artist without at least a trace of magic to their background has displayed anything like true, autonomous, self-propelled, self-controlled flight.

Ranma, Happosai and Cologne, at the very least, have displayed the capacity for tremendous leaps, incredible agility in the air, and almost the ability to "double jump", but none of them have ever been able to explicitly fly. Cologne has made use of air manipulation to suspend herself in mid-air in the anime (when she conjures a tornado with her Snow Whirl attack and floats in its eye), but that's still not quite true flight.

Herb is capable of flight, but is known to possess the blood of dragons, which are capable of flying even without wings. Herb's the only martial artist who is shown to fly without having wings, and even then he is stated in series to be marked by magic, so it's debateable whether the capacity is due to sheer ki levels or if it's a result of his nonhuman lineage. It was, after all, the whole point of beast-breeding to imbue the future Musk with animalistic powers.

Saffron is a magical creature that is functionally a humanoid phoenix.

The Phoenix People are at least partially magical beings, having been warped into their present states over generations of drinking and otherwise using Jusenkyo Spring of Drowned Bird water.

Pantyhose Taro is a chimerical entity whose alternate form is fashioned by Jusenkyo and partially bird.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby frice2000 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:31 am

I honestly think the Ladle was created more to prevent uprisings amongst the newly created animal females. You've got wild animals some quite powerful in their human forms, hell even a dragon. So why then create a locking ladle? I think it comes from power and procreation. I think after you make a animal human they'd likely develop intellect quickly and maintain it when swapping back to their animal form (as we've seen other curse victims maintain their intelligence in their animal forms). So then likely they thought it was a wonderful idea to breed with animals for their strength funny thing though was these same newly created humans could spill some tea on themselves and cause massive devastation especially when added to their now human intellect. So you had a socially quite awkward situation. Some of the animals were likely pleased to be smart enough to make their own decisions and might have felt some kinship or gratitude with their creators. Others probably not so much. Still their society grew but with both sides equal not what the Musk had originally had in mind. Still life went on but they had problems with the curses and reverting to their natural forms while pregnant hurting their children. Thus, the Ladle and Kettle were created. To lock those pregnant to protect the children and the Kettle to unlock when the child was born...at least that was the initial intention. The Musk male leadership secretly sent the Kettle to Japan to be hid away and the laddle was then used on ALL of the remaining women. With their powerful animal forms locked away the females were weakened and felt betrayed. Still they were strong enough to make their own 'Musk' village and would leave to mate with the males periodically but for the most part would stay voluntarily segregated.

Of course all of that is pure speculation. But it explains why the Amazons thought the Musk were dead, why the Kettle was in Japan, why the men and women seem to live seperately but breed amongst each other still, why the ladle is still in existence, why Herb and his cohorts have never seen a woman, etc. It could all be wrong but I like it! Sounds like a story idea heh.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby Zwzn » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:44 pm

frice2000 wrote:I honestly think the Ladle was created more to prevent uprisings amongst the newly created animal females. You've got wild animals some quite powerful in their human forms, hell even a dragon. So why then create a locking ladle? I think it comes from power and procreation. I think after you make a animal human they'd likely develop intellect quickly and maintain it when swapping back to their animal form (as we've seen other curse victims maintain their intelligence in their animal forms). So then likely they thought it was a wonderful idea to breed with animals for their strength funny thing though was these same newly created humans could spill some tea on themselves and cause massive devastation especially when added to their now human intellect. So you had a socially quite awkward situation. Some of the animals were likely pleased to be smart enough to make their own decisions and might have felt some kinship or gratitude with their creators. Others probably not so much. Still their society grew but with both sides equal not what the Musk had originally had in mind. Still life went on but they had problems with the curses and reverting to their natural forms while pregnant hurting their children. Thus, the Ladle and Kettle were created. To lock those pregnant to protect the children and the Kettle to unlock when the child was born...at least that was the initial intention. The Musk male leadership secretly sent the Kettle to Japan to be hid away and the laddle was then used on ALL of the remaining women. With their powerful animal forms locked away the females were weakened and felt betrayed. Still they were strong enough to make their own 'Musk' village and would leave to mate with the males periodically but for the most part would stay voluntarily segregated.

Of course all of that is pure speculation. But it explains why the Amazons thought the Musk were dead, why the Kettle was in Japan, why the men and women seem to live seperately but breed amongst each other still, why the ladle is still in existence, why Herb and his cohorts have never seen a woman, etc. It could all be wrong but I like it! Sounds like a story idea heh.
The transformed animals aren't going to have an uprising because in mind they are still animal.

As for Herb's blood line it is never explained how or where they got a dragon.
______
Given the way the Phoenix tribe got their bird like traits it is possible that the transforming of animals didn't do anything, and the Musk started trying the method the Phoenix tribe used. Both tribes ended up in a similar state.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:36 pm

Uh, just to point out, we're shown that the Musk "Brides" do retain their animalistic mentality initially. We don't know if it's a permanent state of affairs; it's anyone's guess whether they remain beasts in mind forever or if they will actually become as smart as humans if they stay in human form long enough.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby LawOhki » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:51 pm

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:Uh, just to point out, we're shown that the Musk "Brides" do retain their animalistic mentality initially. We don't know if it's a permanent state of affairs; it's anyone's guess whether they remain beasts in mind forever or if they will actually become as smart as humans if they stay in human form long enough.
Just to point out, we see two "brides" chewing on the arm of a Musk, one in Cologne's explanation and then again in Ranma's vision of what happened. Yet in an actual flashback the monkey girl kicked then went through the trouble to splash Herb with the ladle.

Might as well say that since Ryoga bites Ranma in cursed form that he has a pig's mentality. Or that Akane's vision of the spring of drowned Ashura resembles a statue so it was a statue that drowned.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby Zwzn » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:55 am

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:Uh, just to point out, we're shown that the Musk "Brides" do retain their animalistic mentality initially. We don't know if it's a permanent state of affairs; it's anyone's guess whether they remain beasts in mind forever or if they will actually become as smart as humans if they stay in human form long enough.
LawOhki wrote:Just to point out, we see two "brides" chewing on the arm of a Musk, one in Cologne's explanation and then again in Ranma's vision of what happened. Yet in an actual flashback the monkey girl kicked then went through the trouble to splash Herb with the ladle.

Might as well say that since Ryoga bites Ranma in cursed form that he has a pig's mentality. Or that Akane's vision of the spring of drowned Ashura resembles a statue so it was a statue that drowned.

We know the spring of drowned girl does not alter the mind. It did not alter the personalities, nor give new skills to Herb, or Ranma.

What makes you think Akane was picturing an Ashura statue?

When have we seen a spring alter a person's personality, and or skill set?

The saying "Monkey see, monkey do" was created because monkeys are very capable of copying what they see others do. The monkey may have seen the springs at work many times as well. The monkey could have known what the ladle did if it heard Herb, Lime, or Mint talk about it. It's far from impossible that the monkey could understand "human".

I actually doubt Herb, Lime, or Mint saw what the monkey did to knock herb in. They would have been to distracted by it's chest. We don't even know if Herb is remembering what happened or what he wanted to have happened/lying to himself because clearly no ordinary monkey could knock him in and lock him.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby frice2000 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:08 am

We know the spring of drowned girl does not alter the mind.

I'd argue that this isn't true strongly. But barring that for a second what we do know is that you get a human brain to go along with that new human body. Somehow the magic doesn't affect those cursed to turn into animals and stifle intellect the opposite way...So I suppose it's possible that they'd maintain their animal instincts near completely and never develop human skills but I find that unlikely especially if they are stuck in their human forms long term. This doesn't have to happen quickly but if you're in a human form for a prolonged period you're going to learn some behavior. If not all those women making messes by relieving themselves everywhere and not understanding how to eat/sleep/walk/care for a human baby/and other basic functions is going to be quite awkward.

Now going back to imparted/instintctual skills/altered mind bit. Mousse knows how to fly/float, Tarou knows how to fly, Shampoo knows how to walk on all fours, Ryouga knows how to walk on all fours/fight off an attacker, and Ranma/Herb knows how to run/walk/fight with a drastically altered center of gravity all near instantly right after immersion into your spring of choice. You think they practiced all of that and learned all those skills? If so when? No. Far more likely the springs at least impart some skills and instincts to go along with the new body or else you'd likely drown in the spring trying to get up for air since you'd have no clue how to swim in your new form much less walk. So yeah they DEFINITELY alter skill sets and mess with your mind.
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Re: Reasons for the ladle and kettle?

Postby Zwzn » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:39 am

We know the spring of drowned girl does not alter the mind.
frice2000 wrote:I'd argue that this isn't true strongly. But barring that for a second what we do know is that you get a human brain to go along with that new human body. Somehow the magic doesn't affect those cursed to turn into animals and stifle intellect the opposite way...So I suppose it's possible that they'd maintain their animal instincts near completely and never develop human skills but I find that unlikely especially if they are stuck in their human forms long term. This doesn't have to happen quickly but if you're in a human form for a prolonged period you're going to learn some behavior. If not all those women making messes by relieving themselves everywhere and not understanding how to eat/sleep/walk/care for a human baby/and other basic functions is going to be quite awkward.
I agree they would learn things, but that would take a year at least.

Eating and sleeping haven't changes much for the tiger, wolf, bear, and so on.

Walking and talking would have to likely be learned, but the legs should be read to support her/it's weight.

Taking care of a human baby does not really come all that naturally to normal humans, and mothers are known to kill the kids on purpose.

frice2000 wrote:Now going back to imparted/instintctual skills/altered mind bit. Mousse knows how to fly/float, Tarou knows how to fly, Shampoo knows how to walk on all fours, Ryouga knows how to walk on all fours/fight off an attacker, and Ranma/Herb knows how to run/walk/fight with a drastically altered center of gravity all near instantly right after immersion into your spring of choice. You think they practiced all of that and learned all those skills? If so when? No. Far more likely the springs at least impart some skills and instincts to go along with the new body or else you'd likely drown in the spring trying to get up for air since you'd have no clue how to swim in your new form much less walk. So yeah they DEFINITELY alter skill sets and mess with your mind.

Ranma not knowing how to fight in his female form naturally is actually a plot point when Taro kidnaps Akane, and during the full body cats tongue, and Herb is also less capable in female form.

Walking on all fours is easy to do. Human naturally walk on all fours before they walk on two legs.

We have no idea how much training Taro and Mousse went through to learn to fly, and in the case of Mousse he would have exceptionally strong muscles to start with.

Ryoga is not all that skilled a fighter in pig form, and we don't know how much time he spent training.
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