Page 2 of 2

Re: What If: Genma got foreknowledge?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:52 pm
by SpaceKnight of Chaos
Given that this topic basically dropped dead after you, I and Frice2000 started quarrelling over whether or not there genuinely is a "reason" to Jusenkyo curses in canon, that seems like derailment to me. As I've been trying to say, my hope was that folks would comment here with their own thoughts on what Genma would do with such foreknowledge, and why they felt he would do that. You and Frice2000 have, in various posts, done just that - I just want to see more people doing just that.

Re: What If: Genma got foreknowledge?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:24 pm
by Wyrd
It just seems not to have caught the attention of many people. It happens sometimes. I've seen enough examples of 'character x gets knowledge of the future and tries to make things right' that some of the readers on here may just be sick of the idea, though I've never see anyone do it with Genma.

A part of one of my prior posts in this thread that I thought might be worth more attention was, "How many of each type of spring are there?" There could be twenty springs of drowned girl in the valley, each with a different girl who drowned there, which could be used to argue the probability of falling into one.

I could see Genma intentionally training Ranma so that he would better handle the events in the Amazon village and even getting him cursed intentionally with nyannichuan just so that he could pick up their training. Cologne's efforts are really one of the biggest things that helps him grow as a fighter throughout the series, and she is one of the few people who can do much about Happosai. Genma could be drawn to the village partly by a desire to have an ally against Happosai if his other attempts/ideas to keep him from breaking out prove insufficient. As long as Ranma was reasonably respectful and careful, he should be capable of interacting positively with the Amazons. It would just require some differences in how he was raised.

Then again, if he remembered enough about the techniques, he might try teaching them to Ranma on his own. Word gets out about some upstart male using Amazon techniques, and a hunting party is sent out to track down the offending thief, possibly with a cask of nyannichuan with which to punish him for using techniques that belong to women...

Re: What If: Genma got foreknowledge?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:42 pm
by SpaceKnight of Chaos
There's no actual sign that the Amazon techniques are either protected or require female "position" to be taught - Cologne had no problem about teaching Ranma either of his moves while in male form, and I'm pretty sure the Bakusai Tenketsu is actually not a true Joketsuzoku move, as Cologne says it was designed by civil engineers/for work in the quarry.

Ranma doesn't really need any personality or social training to handle the Nyuchiehzu situation better - he was actually pretty polite and humble. The problems were he ate the food in the first place and that he didn't know about the Kiss of Death law. In all honestly, the Joketsuzoku seem more biased against outsider women than against men of any kind. I agree Genma would be forced to consider just how much a poisoned blessing Cologne is; her moves and training were very helpful to Ranma and she does have a bone to pick with Happosai, but from what he's "seen" of her, he's just as likely to come to the conclusion that Nyanniichuan is a danger if he wants to take advantage of her, if not more so.

I mean, if a place has a policy of killing great female warriors who are foreigners, then wouldn't the very last thing you want to be in such a place be a female foreign great warrior? Ranma as a male means risk of engagement - Ranma cursed to turn into a girl means a risk of getting him killed at best and alienating the village at worst. Besides, Genma's not exactly that fond of Ranma being a girl himself, he's just too selfish to let Ranma have first dibs at a cure.

Yes, there could be multiple springs of more common entities. In fact, now you mention it, that's actually kind of believable, unless there's some sort of magic that means springs can't "double up" - which is why there's a specific Spring of Drowned Akane Tendo and a generic Nyanniichuan. But, still, you and Frice2000 both believe the canon curses are fitting because of their victims' personalities... but as the Genma who raised the Ranma in this situation was different to his canonical counterpart, then wouldn't that mean Ranma's personality had changed? So the Nyanniichuan would no longer be the "destined" spring?

And now that you bring it up, yes, Genma could very well teach Ranma the moves on his own. After all, he's seen how all of the training methods were performed, he only values Cologne for those techniques, so it's quite believable for him to think "Hey, I know how to do this, why go to China and anywhere near those damned freaks and weirdos? I can teach him myself, make him just as good and sure that big-boobed bimbo never tries to sink her claws into my Ranma!"

Re: What If: Genma got foreknowledge?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:14 pm
by Wyrd
I freely admit that the idea of the techniques being restricted to women is completely fanon, but it is such common fanon that it could make for a sufficiently believable premise for the Amazons showing up despite Genma's efforts to avoid them. In fact, if I were putting together this story, I think one of the recurring themes I would go for is that his attempts to change things for the better tend to wind up either failing or making things worse. It doesn't even have to be a matter of idiocy or incompetence on his part. You could write this Genma as being reasonably smart and competent, merely unlucky, perhaps with him coming to the conclusion that when you try to mess with fate, fate messes back.

The biggest part of Ranma's behaviour that would need to be changed is that he can't just accept any challenge without being very clear on the terms ahead of time. I cannot think of any point in canon right now where Ranma ever refuses any challenge. He rarely even tries to establish the terms of the duel, unless he is the one doing the challenging.

A very common theme in Ranma fanfiction is having one of the characters read through the actual laws of the Amazons, instead of going on one passage in the primer Shampoo carries around with her. Their laws couldn't be quite so simple and have them be so successful, though that is in large part of symptom of the nature of the series. It doesn't try to be serious or deep all that often, it takes simple things and exaggerates them to the point of absurdity for comedic value. Genma, having a better understanding of the Amazon laws, could conceivably get Ranma Amazon training without having to fear the outsider laws all that much.

Genma knows all of the techniques Cologne taught Ranma in canon, but there is no way that is all of the techniques she could teach him. Anyone who has as many special techniques as Happosai, without most of his major downsides, would be a great boon in making Ranma a better fighter, and that is one of Genma's most consistently stated goals, and one of the few he seems to have worked very hard at following through on.

Yes, if Genma raised Ranma differently enough and the writer was going with the idea that Jusenkyo picks the curses, then it would make sense for the spring he fell in to be one that reflected the differences in his character. Just having a better balance of the masculine and feminine aspects of himself might be enough for him to avoid being cursed at all in such a case.

Re: What If: Genma got foreknowledge?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:26 pm
by SpaceKnight of Chaos
It really does sound like Genma would feel very much inclined to go and speak to Cologne and get her on his good side when you bring that devotion of his to making Ranma a great martial artist up.

Hmm... might he maybe make it a goal of his to head there very soon after he first gets his memories? After all, as well as Cologne, who knows how many other potential teachers he could find at Nyuchiehzu if he was able to hang around there, he could come back to Japan for visits to do important things like ensure Ranma meets and beats Ryoga, and, perhaps most importantly to him, going so early means that not only does Ranma have years to absorb Cologne's techniques, Shampoo will be too young to even think of trying to get a date with Ranma.

You're right, Ranma would need to get teachings that while accepting challenges is part of his school's tenants, he shouldn't let that be used to sucker him. Genma's the first to say that knowing when you're beat is part of martial arts too, after all. Ranma actually has tried to pass down really, really ridiculous ones (for example, the manga version of Martial Arts Tea Ceremony, where he was going to fight a monkey in a bridal dress), but his temper/ego lets him be provoked into accepting them nonetheless.