confidence

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confidence

Postby toushin » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:07 pm

ranma is usually depicted as the pillar of confidence, even his ultimate technique focuses his confidence into a weapon. but is he really a confident person. what do you think.
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Re: confidence

Postby mondu_the_fat » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:22 pm

WIthin his area of expertise (or areas he thinks he's good at), Ranma is very confident. He's very confident in physical activities and dressing up as a girl. He's also very confident in gambling.

In other areas, he's probably like most other boys his age. Schoolwork, for instance. He's been shown agonizing over it. Girls showing affection leaves him tongue tied.
"So Igor wasn't kidding. Most people just ensure they won't die cold and alone by making friends...I gain superpowers and have mysterious voices tell me I did a good job. My life is a goddamn mess."
-- Minato Arisato, My Life is a Goddamn Mess
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Re: confidence

Postby Wyrd » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:29 am

It seems to me that outside of his area of expertise, martial arts, his confidence is mostly bravado, and even then he isn't always shown as being confident. For example, when he was learning how to ice skate he had absolutely no confidence... until faced with a martial arts ice skating challenge. If the challenge had been traditional figure skating, Ranma would never have managed it in the time he had to learn. He is also confident in his disguises, possibly something he picked up from Genma as thoroughly as he learned martial arts, the idea that a change in body language and speech patterns can fool someone even if the physical aspects of the disguise are horrible, as most of his disguises are(especially when trying to fool Ryouga). He has been taught to always act confident, but I think these are the only areas where he actually is confident, of what I've read, as opposed to merely acting. I admit to not having read the gambling king arc, so I can't really comment on his confidence at gambling, having only seen fan interpretations of those events.
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Re: confidence

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:27 pm

A pillar? I wouldn't say so much, no. Aside from the few things that we know he's good at, he's more stubborn and self-conscious than anything, the former giving him drive and the latter making him want to prove that he's good at something (even when he's not). And even when he finds that confidence/self-esteem works for him as an emotion to use in battle, he didn't have enough to sustain his attack in light of Ryoga's complete shishi hokodan. Perhaps if his confidence/self-esteem were truly great enough, not only might his moko takabisha remained strong, but he'd be able to pull off a blast similar in scope to Ryoga's.

Personally, I find Ranma to be a bit insecure, if how defensive he can get is any indication. At least, it's my opinion that someone who is confident in their abilities would have nothing to worry about, instead of having to prove themselves time and again -- even for the exact same thing to the same audience. A pillar of confidence would probably apply to the likes of Kuno, who's so sure of himself that he's blinded to the fact that he's neither the best fighter nor as esteemed in the eyes of his peers (that know him well enough, or aren't themselves loopy in the head, anyway).
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Re: confidence

Postby toushin » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:40 pm

i think ranma is actually really insecure about himself much more then your average high school student and i can take a multitude of examples from the series to prove this. He isn't secure in his looks girls like shampoo, kodachi, and ukyo throw themselves at him; he uses his curse form to con people out of free food. yet all Tsubasa had to do was call ranma ugly and he was able to get ranma to enter a contest to see who was the cutest. The fact that ranma wasn't wining caused him to go and put a ridicules playboy bunny costume and this had nothing to do with martial arts. The reversal jewel arc can also be used. if shampoo had just went up to ranma and calmly said we just don't work out, ect. I truly believe that, that would be the end of it. But to suddenly go from loving him to out right hating him means that there is something wrong with him. It wasn't anything really cruel on his part he just needed to no what was wrong with him and did it the only way he knew how.

He isn't secure in manhood the curse, genma's constant criticism, as well as akane's, see's to that. The mere fact that he waited so long to confese to his mother is proff alone but if you want more. Look at every time a man has told ranma-chan he's loved her. When kuno had said it ranma froze and had violent nightmares, when ryoga said it he beat him to within an inch of his life. By the end of the manga he was getting more used to the curse so when the hot spring owner told ranma that he loved her she didn't beat him up but she didn't let him lay a finger on her. If ranma was comfortable with himself these things wouldn't have such a profound effect. The ice skating match is also a great example while ranma was willing to go through it he was willing to do it as a boy.

Then there is intelligence, while ranma acts nonchalant in school he does seem to care if just a little. In vol 27 when principle kuno stole everyone’s test scores. Everyone said that ranma must know that he had gotten a bad score because he had fought so hard to prevent them from being seen. When we finally see the scores ranma was fine with it while genma berated him by not realizing that the news shouldn’t be able to show them. Meaning that as long as he isn’t embarrassed he doesn’t care.

Then there is martial arts, unlike what fanon perceives I don’t think refusing to lose is a tenant of anything goes. There are numerous instances where that proves to be the case. In the dojo destroyer arc both genma and soun lost, yet in no way tried to redeem that fact. Instead they pawned the problem off on akane and ranma. Even though really as masters of the style getting the sign back was their responsibility. Ranma and akane jobs would have been to defend the sign not get it back. Genma pawning off happosai to ranma is another example of this. In fact the only time genma fought a rematch was when ranma finally got strong enough to beat him regularly. Then there is akane, she has never gone out and kept fighting someone until she won. While she has never backed down from a challenge which seems to be the real tenant of the style once she’s lost that’s the end of it. She might lament about it but she never goes out of her way to re fight the person until they attack her again. I think ranma fights so hard not to loose is because martial arts is really the only thing he has confidence in.

Admitting defeat would mean giving up the only thing that makes him worth anything. This is probably on a scale even higher then the neko-ken in ways genma has screwed with ranma’s mind. If he suffers a loss that he knows he cannot do anything about, he becomes despondent. Extremely proud of his abilities, he feels humiliated by even one setback. When this happens, he becomes obsessed with avenging his defeat in another battle. He fears only the possibility that he might not be able to do so, even with sufficient training, under these circumstances. But nothing of that will stop him from trying. The best example of this is how he learned the Mökö Takabisha in the first place. Ryoga comes along with a technique that ranma has no idea how to perform and no way to counter it. Ranma first desperately tries to recreate it, when that doesn’t work he asks cologne for advise. She tells him that he won’t be able to master it; he fights ryoga again, and loses again. He exen tries to sneak a peak at the scroll and is stopped. Finally ranma sits down and broads. Ryoga has finally beat him with a technique he has no way of countering and everyone says he can’t learn. Finally with that though in mind he instinctually uses the shi shi hokodan.

Its instances like these where we really see ranma at his worse. But even nonchalantly blasting away his father is no match for what he does when someone uses magical weapons against him. Ranma wasn’t really that bad in the super soba arc, akane coming out as more of the bad guy, but the moment she lost her strength he forced her to arm wrestle him over and over again. This was more for himself then to humiliate akane, it allowed him to reaffirm that she couldn’t beat him in a fair fight. The battle dogi arc is where we really see ranma in a bad light. He went so far as seducing akane to get her to get rid of the suit. Even though he realized what he was doing was wrong the moment he did it. I also believe that if akane kept using those items he would have never forgiven her.

The fact that he went through with it in the first place says a lot. Some of you may argue that ranma is willing to use magical weapon and has. But if you remember he only uses those weapons once. The fire breathing pacifier and the electric ring shows this. Ranma used only to counter the invisible glasses and you never saw them again. I don’t remember if he gave them back or kept them. Winning means everything to ranma he doesn’t care if he has to fall in love with a man, he doesn’t care if has to wear revealing lingerie, he doesn’t even care if he can walk afterwards as long as he can say he won.

This is likely the reason ranma fanfiction and ranma ½ it’s self is so popular. Even though it’s a comedy if you look under the slap stick you see incredibly complex flawed characters. Ranma couldn’t possible be the confident person he makes himself out to be because a confident person wouldn’t act the way he does.
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Re: confidence

Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:35 pm

That's a surprisingly well-written argument... admittedly, it needs a touch of corrective spelling and grammar, but, it turns out pretty well with only a few minor touchups. I'm not saying it's neccessarily right, but it makes me think and it feels like it has some good points to it.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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Re: confidence

Postby Wyrd » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:03 pm

Then there is akane, she has never gone out and kept fighting someone until she won.


It was pointed out to me earlier today that this is not the case. There was one fight in the anime where Akane lost, then went and seriously trained before coming back to win.

Otherwise, I agree completely with spaceknight. Your post had enough grammar and spelling problems to make it a little difficult to read, but the content was well thought out enough and well supported enough to make the effort definitely worthwhile.
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Re: confidence

Postby Konsaki » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:09 pm

Wyrd wrote:It was pointed out to me earlier today that this is not the case. There was one fight in the anime where Akane lost, then went and seriously trained before coming back to win.
That's the Kurumi and Natsume fight.
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Re: confidence

Postby Zwzn » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:50 pm

toushin wrote:i think ranma is actually really insecure about himself much more then your average high school student and i can take a multitude of examples from the series to prove this. He isn't secure in his looks girls like shampoo, kodachi, and ukyo throw themselves at him; he uses his curse form to con people out of free food. yet all Tsubasa had to do was call ranma ugly and he was able to get ranma to enter a contest to see who was the cutest. The fact that ranma wasn't wining caused him to go and put a ridicules playboy bunny costume and this had nothing to do with martial arts. The reversal jewel arc can also be used. if shampoo had just went up to ranma and calmly said we just don't work out, ect. I truly believe that, that would be the end of it. But to suddenly go from loving him to out right hating him means that there is something wrong with him. It wasn't anything really cruel on his part he just needed to no what was wrong with him and did it the only way he knew how.

He isn't secure in manhood the curse, genma's constant criticism, as well as akane's, see's to that. The mere fact that he waited so long to confese to his mother is proff alone but if you want more. Look at every time a man has told ranma-chan he's loved her. When kuno had said it ranma froze and had violent nightmares, when ryoga said it he beat him to within an inch of his life. By the end of the manga he was getting more used to the curse so when the hot spring owner told ranma that he loved her she didn't beat him up but she didn't let him lay a finger on her. If ranma was comfortable with himself these things wouldn't have such a profound effect. The ice skating match is also a great example while ranma was willing to go through it he was willing to do it as a boy.

I would not use the reversal gem arc as an example of Ranma's behavior if only because we don't know the full capabilities of the gem.

It is amazing how many problems would be solved for Ranma got his curse cured.

I would consider the curse that turns Ranma into a girl as to the main reason Ranma is unsure of his desirability, and the cruel and out right evil insults thrown at Ranma by the Tendos. Genma has made one comment, and that was more about how men are suppose to behave in Japanese society, but Akane for example has many times called Ranma a perverted freak.

toushin wrote:Then there is intelligence, while ranma acts nonchalant in school he does seem to care if just a little. In vol 27 when principle kuno stole everyone’s test scores. Everyone said that ranma must know that he had gotten a bad score because he had fought so hard to prevent them from being seen. When we finally see the scores ranma was fine with it while genma berated him by not realizing that the news shouldn’t be able to show them. Meaning that as long as he isn’t embarrassed he doesn’t care..

Well we don't really see Ranma try very hard at school work. If school was actual difficult for him we should see him studying, and he does seem like he does not care if he cuts a class or two. He seems to treat school a lot how I did.

toushin wrote:Then there is martial arts, unlike what fanon perceives I don’t think refusing to lose is a tenant of anything goes. There are numerous instances where that proves to be the case. In the dojo destroyer arc both genma and soun lost, yet in no way tried to redeem that fact. Instead they pawned the problem off on akane and ranma. Even though really as masters of the style getting the sign back was their responsibility. Ranma and akane jobs would have been to defend the sign not get it back. Genma pawning off happosai to ranma is another example of this. In fact the only time genma fought a rematch was when ranma finally got strong enough to beat him regularly. Then there is akane, she has never gone out and kept fighting someone until she won. While she has never backed down from a challenge which seems to be the real tenant of the style once she’s lost that’s the end of it. She might lament about it but she never goes out of her way to re fight the person until they attack her again. I think ranma fights so hard not to loose is because martial arts is really the only thing he has confidence in.

Admitting defeat would mean giving up the only thing that makes him worth anything. This is probably on a scale even higher then the neko-ken in ways genma has screwed with ranma’s mind. If he suffers a loss that he knows he cannot do anything about, he becomes despondent. Extremely proud of his abilities, he feels humiliated by even one setback. When this happens, he becomes obsessed with avenging his defeat in another battle. He fears only the possibility that he might not be able to do so, even with sufficient training, under these circumstances. But nothing of that will stop him from trying. The best example of this is how he learned the Mökö Takabisha in the first place. Ryoga comes along with a technique that ranma has no idea how to perform and no way to counter it. Ranma first desperately tries to recreate it, when that doesn’t work he asks cologne for advise. She tells him that he won’t be able to master it; he fights ryoga again, and loses again. He exen tries to sneak a peak at the scroll and is stopped. Finally ranma sits down and broads. Ryoga has finally beat him with a technique he has no way of countering and everyone says he can’t learn. Finally with that though in mind he instinctually uses the shi shi hokodan.

Its instances like these where we really see ranma at his worse. But even nonchalantly blasting away his father is no match for what he does when someone uses magical weapons against him. Ranma wasn’t really that bad in the super soba arc, akane coming out as more of the bad guy, but the moment she lost her strength he forced her to arm wrestle him over and over again. This was more for himself then to humiliate akane, it allowed him to reaffirm that she couldn’t beat him in a fair fight. The battle dogi arc is where we really see ranma in a bad light. He went so far as seducing akane to get her to get rid of the suit. Even though he realized what he was doing was wrong the moment he did it. I also believe that if akane kept using those items he would have never forgiven her.

The fact that he went through with it in the first place says a lot. Some of you may argue that ranma is willing to use magical weapon and has. But if you remember he only uses those weapons once. The fire breathing pacifier and the electric ring shows this. Ranma used only to counter the invisible glasses and you never saw them again. I don’t remember if he gave them back or kept them. Winning means everything to ranma he doesn’t care if he has to fall in love with a man, he doesn’t care if has to wear revealing lingerie, he doesn’t even care if he can walk afterwards as long as he can say he won.

This is likely the reason ranma fanfiction and ranma ½ it’s self is so popular. Even though it’s a comedy if you look under the slap stick you see incredibly complex flawed characters. Ranma couldn’t possible be the confident person he makes himself out to be because a confident person wouldn’t act the way he does.

I think you need to take into account why Ranma is fighting each battle. It's often about the person he is fighting not treating others with respect, trying to kill him, or someone elses life is on the line.

Ranma in canon does not care if you can beat him. He was out right happy Akane could out fight him when she first got the magic dogi, and he did not care if he basically lost the martial arts cheer leading. He can't stand people who treat others with disrespect such as Akane quickly starts to do whenever she gets a power up.

One thing to remember is that while Ranma knows he is good at martial arts he knows he is not unbeatable.
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Re: confidence

Postby Kyoumen » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:16 am

In the interests of avoiding another drawn-out debate on Ranma's character here, I'll just respond to two things that raised my eyebrows...

toushin wrote:He isn't secure in manhood the curse, genma's constant criticism, as well as akane's, see's to that. The mere fact that he waited so long to confese to his mother is proff alone but if you want more. Look at every time a man has told ranma-chan he's loved her. When kuno had said it ranma froze and had violent nightmares, when ryoga said it he beat him to within an inch of his life. By the end of the manga he was getting more used to the curse so when the hot spring owner told ranma that he loved her she didn't beat him up but she didn't let him lay a finger on her. If ranma was comfortable with himself these things wouldn't have such a profound effect. The ice skating match is also a great example while ranma was willing to go through it he was willing to do it as a boy.


1) Ranma waited so long to confess to his mother because he figured (thanks to Genma, in large part) that if his mother knew he turned into a girl with cold water, she would chop his head off. The fact she repeatedly expressed willingness to do this didn't help. That's not really an indictment of Ranma's confidence in his manhood.

2) Ranma freaks out at men being attracted to him because Ranma is macho and homophobic, not because Ranma is insecure. It's worth noting that Ranma quite literally thinks the definition of "lesbian" is "woman who has not yet met Ranma Saotome" (see the Tsubasa story). It is not particularly uncommon, unfortunately, for guys (particularly macho jocks) to react like this.

You make a good point in that if Ranma was truly secure he wouldn't care if someone beat him, but that doesn't mean he's insecure either. I mean, Kunou has lots of good excuses for why he doesn't beat Ranma that aren't "Ranma is better than me", but most people wouldn't say he lacks confidence for it.
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Re: confidence

Postby toushin » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:19 am

Kyoumen wrote:2) Ranma freaks out at men being attracted to him because Ranma is macho and homophobic, not because Ranma is insecure. It's worth noting that Ranma quite literally thinks the definition of "lesbian" is "woman who has not yet met Ranma Saotome" (see the Tsubasa story). It is not particularly uncommon, unfortunately, for guys (particularly macho jocks) to react like this.


i wouldn't say this was homophobia if fact everyone felt that way. the only time ranma actually insulted tsubasa about it was after he called him ugly.

when he told him he was cute enough to find a boyfriend it was to cheer tsubasa up

he never said that, he came to the conclusion to date tsubasa after he hounded him, and after ukyo said that tsubasa hated boys. it reaaly seemed like another one of ranma's spur of the moment ideas. while he did say he wanted to put her on the right path i really never saw it as homophobia as a reaction to something completely new.

also while kuno steadily denies defeat, that is more of him not excepting reality then lack of confidence. like the fact that he's seen and felt ranma change but still thinks their different people. think of akabane from get backers he can't imagine he will die so he doesn't. kuno can't inagine he will be defeated so in his mind he wasn't. ranma on the other hand was willing to be blown up to defeat Gosunkugi when he was in the warsuit. no one would have seen that defeat as legitimate and were even yellling at him to lose. which he steadfastly refused to do.

Zwzn wrote:Ranma in canon does not care if you can beat him. He was out right happy Akane could out fight him when she first got the magic dogi, and he did not care if he basically lost the martial arts cheer leading. He can't stand people who treat others with disrespect such as Akane quickly starts to do whenever she gets a power up.


This is also the reason that I think that Akane and Ranma are not a good match up. I’m not an Akane hater, but I still feel they just don’t work together. Akane has a habit of using ranma’s insecurities against him. In vol 1 she after finding out about jusenkyo Akane insults him calling him a freak. She also calls him a pervert for looking at her, but also states that her walking in on him didn’t matter, because she’s a girl so can’t be a pervert. I also find it interesting that Genma said that Ranma deserved to be slammed in the head with a table for insulting Akane, when she insulted him as well. In the Japanese jusenkyo storyline she told him because of his curse his body has always been sick and twisted.

Not only did she blame him for simply acting like a cat, something he has absolutely no control over she even insults his manhood, she also uses his fear against him on numerous accessions. During the takeout race when Ranma desperately tried to keep Shampoo human, Akane accused him of betraying her. When mousse came back when Ranma refused to throw a fight she gleefully used shampoo’s curse to make him do it. She does it again in vol 12, during the first ghost cat arc he calls him pathetic because of it. She does this many more times.

In the Romeo and Juliet, Tsubasa, and the fighting cheerleading arcs she accused him of liking male attention.

Everybody say’s that the super soba and the battle dogi arcs show Ranma at his worse, but they also show Akane at hers. During the super soba arc the lords her strength over everyone and never once caring that fighting in official matches was completely unfair. While this is more of her just being happy with a new toy, in the battle dogi arc she is horrible. Once again she lords her new strength over Ranma, then beats him half to death when he challenges her. She even tells him he’s just jealous that she is a better “Martial artist”. During their third match she beats and insults Ranma to the point where he is pissed off enough to attack her when he does she acts as if he betrayed her. She continues to beat him up calling him a coward, weakling ect. When she pisses him off again enough to attack her that if he does she will never forgive him. Then she get’s angry that he doesn’t stop fighting, even after all she has done to him.
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Re: confidence

Postby Kyoumen » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:19 am

toushin wrote:he never said that, he came to the conclusion to date tsubasa after he hounded him, and after ukyo said that tsubasa hated boys. it reaaly seemed like another one of ranma's spur of the moment ideas. while he did say he wanted to put her on the right path i really never saw it as homophobia as a reaction to something completely new.


I can't say I really see that as an interpretation of what struck me as a fairly unambiguous line, but regardless, his reactions to any and all male affection towards him are pretty blatantly homophobic; moreover, they are intended to be comedic in the time-honoured-and-increasingly-unpolitically-correct vein of "guy hits on macho guy, who freaks out, hilarity ensues". Takahashi is a lot of things, but I wouldn't say "socially progressive" is one of them.

also while kuno steadily denies defeat, that is more of him not excepting reality then lack of confidence. like the fact that he's seen and felt ranma change but still thinks their different people.


This is tossed out a lot but is actually unfair to Kunou. There is not really any good reason for him to assume they are the same person; "Ranma has a curse that causes him to change genders with water" is not exactly an Occam's Razor-satisfying, intuitive solution to someone who doesn't know about Jyusenkyou. Ranma spiriting away Kunou's hapless female crush is in fact rather more believable an explanation (Ranma certainly could do that to someone Kunou was hugging without him noticing). Even saying Ranma has magic powers is no more unbelievable than the actual explanation.
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Re: confidence

Postby LawOhki » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:59 am

Kyoumen wrote:I can't say I really see that as an interpretation of what struck me as a fairly unambiguous line, but regardless, his reactions to any and all male affection towards him are pretty blatantly homophobic; moreover, they are intended to be comedic in the time-honoured-and-increasingly-unpolitically-correct vein of "guy hits on macho guy, who freaks out, hilarity ensues". Takahashi is a lot of things, but I wouldn't say "socially progressive" is one of them.

Not particularly, Ranma is the focus of several men throughout the series and reacts poorly after they had crossed the line, not before hand. Why is Ranma homophobic for his reactions when they aren't all that different from.. say what Akane would do? What's the difference between Ranma's reactions and Akane's? Let alone if Ranma was as homophobic as you seem to be making out, why would Ranma be willing to do half the things he will do as a girl?

Couple examples
21:7 - 22:1 Cheerleading contest
23:5-6 The defunct hotspring island arc
33:1 where Ranma has to get a boy to take his medicine (If you didn't know about about Ranma's curse, is it possible to even tell that he's a boy up until the ending?)
36:11 Ranma/Akane/Konatsu help out at Ucchan's
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Re: confidence

Postby Zwzn » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:01 am

toushin wrote:
Everybody say’s that the super soba and the battle dogi arcs show Ranma at his worse, but they also show Akane at hers. During the super soba arc the lords her strength over everyone and never once caring that fighting in official matches was completely unfair. While this is more of her just being happy with a new toy, in the battle dogi arc she is horrible. Once again she lords her new strength over Ranma, then beats him half to death when he challenges her. She even tells him he’s just jealous that she is a better “Martial artist”. During their third match she beats and insults Ranma to the point where he is pissed off enough to attack her when he does she acts as if he betrayed her. She continues to beat him up calling him a coward, weakling ect. When she pisses him off again enough to attack her that if he does she will never forgive him. Then she get’s angry that he doesn’t stop fighting, even after all she has done to him.

Akane from the start loved beating the crap out of people she knew could not defeat her, or would not defend themselves. She enjoyed the morning fights.

I have never understood why anyone would say the Battle Dogi arc is a low showing for Ranma?
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Re: confidence

Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:37 pm

From what I understand, it's because Ranma was quite blatantly jealous of Akane's newfound power, and allowed that jealousy to go to his head so much he tried to seduce her into getting rid of it and outright attacked her in an effort to beat her and thusly destroy it forever.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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