Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Well, if you take dictionary dot com at face value, Despicable doesn't exist... And wikipedia redirects to despise. Google search doesn't get much either...

But when I see the word. I usually equate it with malicious nature and vile intent.

I wouldn't call much of Ryoga's actions 'malicious' in nature save for those pertaining to his rather understandable Hostility to Ranma. (Which goes from Malicious to VICIOUS at times) ... but even then, he lacks VILEness. He couldn't kill Ranma in Cold Blood when presented with a free shot, he doesn't have a mean streak, he doesn't pick on the weak. He feels guilt for actions when they push even his estranged boundries of morality.

[Cheb]

Ryoga decided that murdering Ranma and hiding the body was the best course of action.

I accuse you of lying.

Only after being molested time and again by the lovesick Ranma.
Only after this situation repetitively butting between him and Akane
Only after Ranma beat him up at attempt to ditch her, practically showing Ryouga that she WONT let him go.
Only then Ryouga finally had enough and tried to get rid of Ranma while she was still sleeping.
I can't forgive him, but I can understand him. He was getting desperate.

[LadyRelena]

Rape! Murder! Are you guys serious? This is Ranma 1/2 not Mermaids Scar. To even insinuate that Ryoga would even attempted to do such things is completely asinine and against everything Ryoga as a character and the sires is about. Ryoga has had many opportunity's to actually kill Ranma but chose not to. All that "Ranma prepare to die!" crap is just that; crap. Ranma 1/2 characters are known for saying all kinds of stupid things in the heat of the moment. Does Ryoga want to hurt Ranma? Yes. Does Ryoga want to beat Ranma within an inch of his life? Probably. Does Ryoga want to actually KILL Ranma? No. I will admit, that in the beginning he probably did since he had nothing really stopping him but as it stands now he knows that actually killing Ranma would upset Akane and would permanently take him out of the running for her affections. Also, he's helped Ranma out a number of times, and although it usually starts off as a means to help himself, he very often ends up being genuinely concerned for Ranma's safety and well-being, even though he's his enemy/rival. A person who really wants to kill someone wouldn't be seen worrying about an enemy if that was their true intent.

Ryoga is selfish: Well shit, so is every other character in the sires. This doesn't make him any more despicable then Ukyo, Ranma, or Shampoo but to say that he's never selfless for Akane is stupid. In the Ryugenzawa arc, Ryoga tells Ranma "I'll watch over Akane even though I've been dumped... But I love her without any regret." In this case it was Ranma who was being selfish and Ryoga who was going to help her even though he thought she was in love with Shinnosuke. It was his words, in fact, that finally lit a fire under Ranma's ass to go and help Akane out. If it went for what Ryoga said Ranma would have ditched her and went on some long training trip.

The Koi rod: To think he was using this with the intent of eventually raping Akane is beyond logical reasoning. He used the koi rod because he saw it as an easy way out for him. Instead of having to summon up the courage and tell Akane how he feels (with the possibility of getting rejected) he could just use the koi rod and live happily ever after. Rape was NEVER even part of the plan. Does this make him despicable? No. Does this make him a pathetic gutless idiot? Absolutely. And like AdmiralTigerclaw already said, Ryoga wasn't even sure the thing was going to work anyway and he confessed that he had a moment of weakness.

Trying to date Akane and Akari at the same time: This was also NEVER intended. 1) He had gotten a perishable present for Akane and 2) He WAS lonely at the time Akane had gotten the letter. He only said that he was sick because he didn't think she would come otherwise. Ryoga had no idea that Akari was going to show up at his house. It was only after both girls show up that it became a different story. I could see if Ryoga wanted to spend time with just both girls in each others presence (to see which one he was truly in-love with) but the fact that he tried to hid one girl from the other was, I will admit, despicable. However, I don't see this as any more despicable then when Ranma tried to get Shampoo to love him again during the reversal Jewel arc, when it was obvious he only did it because of his big ego. So now both Ranma and Ryouga had played around with girls feelings. As for Ryoga's intentions for hiding the girls from one another, It's obvious he wanted to play house with both of them, and while that is indigent in it's self, again, rape is NOT even insinuated.

Ryoga molests Akane: This is ridicules. It's Akane who is smashing him against her boobs, not the other way around. It's her that takes him to bed with her while he tries to get away (and he has often enough) Sleeping with her is also not a cup of tea since she's just as violent in her sleep as she is awake. This isn't some henti dounjinshi where Ryoga starts molesting Akane in pig form (which seems to be what most people are insinuating).

He has rubbed Akane's breast's while in pig form to make Ranma angry.

picture please.

You people are obviously making Ryoga to be much worst then he actually is and are going extremely overboard to do so. If he was as bad as you say he is, then the writer wouldn't have given him a girlfriend like Akari to be with. Ryoga is a pathetic moron who has a dream of being with a woman who will never want him, not a guy who is a depraved molester/rapist who wants Ranma's head on a plate.

[Crescent Pulsar]

You people are obviously making Ryoga to be much worst then he actually is and are going extremely overboard to do so.

Before you accuse any of us of making him much worse than he actually is, take a look at what you're actually saying, please. Well, at least most of us wouldn't apply to how you're making us out to be. That's not very nice.

I'd take your post apart, because it's full of things that need to be addressed and corrected, but I'm tired (of this subject, and in the physical sense) and I doubt it'd accomplish anything worthwhile. I did, however, refresh my knowledge of the story with the koi rod, so I'll drop a few lines about it and be on my way.

One: Even though Ryoga thought it wouldn't work, and thus that it wouldn't hurt to try, he was still hoping that the love rod would work. That's why, not too long afterward, he blames Ranma for ruining his "one, precious chance." So his attempt wasn't completely benign.

Two: When Ryoga envisioned how Akane would react, when he told her about the koi rod, it showed Akane being upset. That's because even he knew it was wrong, and couldn't imagine the scenario any other way.

Three: Ryoga really was intent on killing Ranma, even though she was an innocent victim of something that he had brought upon himself. What stopped him wasn't a change of mind, but Akane's interference and continued presence. Had she never arrived, he would have carried out what he had intended to do.

Four: Even Akane said, in person, that using the koi rod was wrong.

Five: And now what I've been trying to avoid, but I feel should properly be address before leaving: rape. Did it happen? No. But just imagine what could have been, for a second, if you will. Let's say that he snagged who he had intended to snag, Akane. Would he have tried to cure her? I highly doubt that, personally. He'd be too happy to receive her affections. Considering some of his delusions, he'd probably imagine that the love she was showing him was there all along, and that the koi rod had merely forced it out into the open. (I mean, in the same story, he imagines that Akane is happy about the love triangle being gone, and thus satisfied with Ryoga's killing of Ranma, while sitting nearby to said person's grave.) The thing is, we know such feelings from her, at that point and time (or any time), are not her feelings. So she's being forced to feel that way. And then nature takes its course, and they have sex. The thing about the koi rod is that the person forgets what happened once its effect is gone, so... you could say that, in essence, if the person hadn't wanted sex from the user of the rod before being affected by it, it'd essentially act like a date rape drug. I can hear some of the protestations already, but do you really think that Ryoga wouldn't take the situation that far, if Akane had been caught by the koi rod, and nothing had intervened? Seriously. After all, he didn't know how to cure Ranma, and only managed it by accident. He's not going to try to harm or kill Akane, as a solution. So, if it can't be helped, then he'd just accept the situation, since he'd be getting what he wanted while Ranma loses her. It'd be win-win, for him.

[three headed dog]

I really don't feel like discussing this any more but some of Lady Relena's comments I feel need addressing. I do not know what manga you happened to be reading but both Rape and Murder are fairly common themes throughout the manga. For example, Shampoo planning on killing Akane and letting Taro take the blame. Akane's nightmares and fears about being raped (shows up in multiple arcs). Ranma's fear when Kuno learned the watermelon technique (to the point Ranma had a nightmare of having Kuno's kids). The storyarc with Aloha virus in which Akane, Ukyo, and female form Ranma were afraid that the males where going to rape them. Densuke (the sick kid) used a knockout powder in Ranma's drink and then took female form Ranma to a love motel with the intention of raping her (Ranma both woke up before anything happened and Densuke had an attack of conscience). Both rape and murder are common enough it's just that many times they are played for comedy (typically known as black comedy) and the situations do not stay serious.

Ryoga does not try to get away from Akane when she hugs him, there is maybe one attempt in the entire manga that he does (because she was going to bathe him). Ryoga states in the third volume to Ranma that Ranma is jealous than turns into P-chan and goes to Akane (this leads to the chase that knocks Kodachi off the roof) showing that Ryoga has done so for the express purpose of pissing off Ranma. Ryoga has turned into p-chan and then jumped into Akane's arms. Ryoga has rubbed against Akane's breasts on purpose (I do not have the time to look up the page but I am sure it happened and if I find I have the time latter on I will post it).

Most people were not insinuating that Ryoga is an evil monster or a rapist. Only that he is despicable for his actions. Ryoga does improve as the manga progress's. The thing is he does not always take into account the girls feelings (like when he was trying to hug Akane and scared her a lot), or when Ranma pretended to be his fiancee. Ryoga would not intentionally be a rapist but it is quite obvious he would be simply because he does not take into account what the girl is saying/feeling (he then would probably be suicidal after wards when he realizes what he did). He is also taking advantage of Akane, more so than anyone in the manga.

[Cheb]

>if the person hadn't wanted sex from the user of the rod before being affected by it, it'd essentially act like a date rape drug.

It's even worse. Presuming the magical effect is permanent... A long happy married life awaits them.

Both rape and murder are common enough it's just that many times they are played for comedy (typically known as black comedy) and the situations do not stay serious.

What makes us laugh is other people's pain

but it is quite obvious

Well, he had a WONDERFUL upbringing Doesn't that show?
He's like a savage animal. Down boy, down!
And what is natural is immensely cruel.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

On the 'nuzzling Akane's breasts' score, I don't know when or if it happens in the manga, but I do know that we first see it, in the anime, in the first episode P-chan is introduced. I believe it happens shortly after Akane takes her new 'find' to investigate Ranma talking to Bess the dog.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

One: Even though Ryoga thought it wouldn't work, and thus that it wouldn't hurt to try, he was still hoping that the love rod would work. That's why, not too long afterward, he blames Ranma for ruining his "one, precious chance." So his attempt wasn't completely benign.

This is reading too much into his dialogue. Everything that comes out of his mouth is exaggerated when he's angry at Ranma. Just as he always yells at Ranma whenever Ranma causes him woe, he hooked Ranma with it and dragged him in, and had a disgusted reaction.

Two: When Ryoga envisioned how Akane would react, when he told her about the koi rod, it showed Akane being upset. That's because even he knew it was wrong, and couldn't imagine the scenario any other way.

This occured only AFTER he realized the Rod had Worked as Advertised, and on Ranma. And he was feeling guilty. This shows he had enough integrity to realize it was a screwed up idea, not that he was despicable.

Hind Sight is 20x20.

Three: Ryoga really was intent on killing Ranma, even though she was an innocent victim of something that he had brought upon himself. What stopped him wasn't a change of mind, but Akane's interference and continued presence. Had she never arrived, he would have carried out what he had intended to do.

You purposefully ignore the fact that Ryoga was no longer doing this in cold blood, but because he was humiliated and enraged. (Like he always is when Ranma messes with him. Or in this case, when it was just creepy.) Your claim that he was trying to kill ranma in what was essentially Pre-Meditated Murder was what was driving this part of the argument in the Koi-Rod story. Having already debunked this, this argument will become a straw man if you continue to try and milk it.

Four: Even Akane said, in person, that using the koi rod was wrong.

Red Herring (Or is it Koi?) Fallacy. Invalid (Irrellevent actually) Point.

Five: And now what I've been trying to avoid, but I feel should properly be address before leaving: rape. Did it happen? No. But just imagine what could have been, for a second, if you will. Let's say that he snagged who he had intended to snag, Akane. Would he have tried to cure her? I highly doubt that, personally. He'd be too happy to receive her affections. Considering some of his delusions, he'd probably imagine that the love she was showing him was there all along, and that the koi rod had merely forced it out into the open. (I mean, in the same story, he imagines that Akane is happy about the love triangle being gone, and thus satisfied with Ryoga's killing of Ranma, while sitting nearby to said person's grave.) The thing is, we know such feelings from her, at that point and time (or any time), are not her feelings. So she's being forced to feel that way. And then nature takes its course, and they have sex. The thing about the koi rod is that the person forgets what happened once its effect is gone, so... you could say that, in essence, if the person hadn't wanted sex from the user of the rod before being affected by it, it'd essentially act like a date rape drug. I can hear some of the protestations already, but do you really think that Ryoga wouldn't take the situation that far, if Akane had been caught by the koi rod, and nothing had intervened? Seriously. After all, he didn't know how to cure Ranma, and only managed it by accident. He's not going to try to harm or kill Akane, as a solution. So, if it can't be helped, then he'd just accept the situation, since he'd be getting what he wanted while Ranma loses her. It'd be win-win, for him.

Begging the Question Fallacy. Point Five is Invalid.

[LawOhki]

You purposefully ignore the fact that Ryoga was no longer doing this in cold blood, but because he was humiliated and enraged. (Like he always is when Ranma messes with him. Or in this case, when it was just creepy.) Your claim that he was trying to kill ranma in what was essentially Pre-Meditated Murder was what was driving this part of the argument in the Koi-Rod story. Having already debunked this, this argument will become a straw man if you continue to try and milk it.

The only thing you've debunked is the myth that you actually read the chapters or know what a straw man argument is.

Ryoga planning it out.
http://www.maxmanga.com/online_manga/48 ... t=38&n=146

Ryoga trudging through the woods to find a secluded spot.
http://www.maxmanga.com/online_manga/48 ... t=38&n=148

Digging the grave
http://www.maxmanga.com/online_manga/48 ... t=38&n=150

It's not until Ranma kisses him when Ryoga refuses to kill someone who won't fight back that there is any large scale humiliation or rage. Someone who is overcome by emotions does it RIGHT NOW, not hours later.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

The only thing you've debunked is the myth that you actually read the chapters or know what a straw man argument is.

Wrong on both counts.

Ryoga can't do it, and then Ranma enrages him.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:


- Person A has position X.
- Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
- Person B attacks position Y.
- Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

The only despicable thing I'm finding here was that attempt to conciously distort the argument by purposefully leaving out that page, LawOhki.

Do not do so again.

[LawOhki]

The only despicable thing I'm finding here was that attempt to conciously distort the argument by purposefully leaving out that page, LawOhki.

Do not do so again.

Did I? I did you simply not read?

It's not until Ranma kisses him when Ryoga refuses to kill someone who won't fight back that there is any large scale humiliation or rage. Someone who is overcome by emotions does it RIGHT NOW, not hours later.

But good job distorting and ignoring points of what I said to attack my position without actually forming a rebuttal.

[three headed dog]

Are you really arguing that an act is not despicable because you realize what your doing is a deplorable act and stop the action? That an act is not despicable because it is done because of a strong emotion? Is not murdering someone, or in this case attempting to, in a fit of rage still a despicable act?

That Ryoga did not follow through with his plan (which he carried out for quite awhile) shows that he realized what he was doing was wrong, it does not make the acts he took any less despicable. Had he followed through with his plan it would be more despicable but what he did was despicable in and of itself.

Is not attempting to use something to force someone to do something, even if you don't believe it will work, still a bit despicable?

An action does not have to be completed for the act to be despicable. An action does not have to be premeditated to be despicable. An act does not even have to have malicious intent to be despicable, since a person can be viewed as despicable for other reasons (for example a person who forecloses on a house could be considered despicable, since he is kicking people out of their houses, but have no malicious intentions at all).

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Are you really arguing that an act is not despicable because you realize what your doing is a deplorable act and stop the action? That an act is not despicable because it is done because of a strong emotion? Is not murdering someone or in this case attempting to, in a fit of rage still a despicable act?

That Ryoga did not follow threw with his plan (which he carried out for quite awhile) shows that he realized what he was doing was wrong, it does not make the acts he took any less despicable. Had he followed threw with his plan it would be more despicable but what he did was despicable in and of itself.

Is not attempting to use something to force someone to do something, even if you don't believe it will work, still a bit despicable?

An action does not have to be completed for the act to be despicable. An action does not have to be premeditated to be despicable. An act does not even have to have malicious intent to be despicable, since a person can be despicable for other reasons (for example a person who forecloses on a house could be considered despicable, since he is kicking people out of their houses, but have no malicious intentions at all).

Focus THD.

The argument is that Ryoga is 'despicable', not the act. This is why it's a straw man. You are substituting the Act for Ryoga and attacking the Act.

The entire point of proving Ryoga was despicable here was hinging on the argument that Ryoga was going to commit cold blooded murder. Cold Blooded Murder is a despicable act, there is no argument about that. However...
I have proved that Ryoga could not commit cold blooded murder. In response to this, you and LawOhki have substituted the act itself (and its planning) and claim its Despicable-ness as proof of Ryoga's case.

The Argument is Invalid.

[LawOhki]

The argument is that Ryoga is 'despicable', not the act. This is why it's a straw man. You are substituting the Act for Ryoga and attacking the Act.

The entire point of proving Ryoga was despicable here was hinging on the argument that Ryoga was going to commit cold blooded murder. Cold Blooded Murder is a despicable act, there is no argument about that. However...
I have proved that Ryoga could not commit cold blooded murder. In response to this, you and LawOhki have substituted the act itself (and its planning) and claim its Despicable-ness as proof of Ryoga's case.

The Argument is Invalid.

[three headed dog]

I disagree, since I view a person who does many despicable acts as being a despicable person. That's why I argued about the acts.

That Ryoga did not follow through shows he has a conscience and some morals, it does not prevent him from being viewed as a despicable person.

btw.. Hot blooded murder is still despicable.