Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:44 pm

EDIT: Wow. Lots of posts while I was typing. Well, I don't want it to go to waste, so... *Submit*~<3

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:This is reading too much into his dialogue. Everything that comes out of his mouth is exaggerated when he's angry at Ranma. Just as he always yells at Ranma whenever Ranma causes him woe, he hooked Ranma with it and dragged him in, and had a disgusted reaction.

That doesn't automatically mean there's no truth behind it, at all. The thing about exaggeration is that it's based on what is present. It would be the difference between being angry but saying that you're really angry. That doesn't mean you're not angry. And why would Ryoga react as he did if he had no prior thought in his head about it working just as the instructions said it would? So he reeled in Ranma. So what? Big deal. It wasn't like he had foiled anything that could have potentially happened. Certainly not.

This occured only AFTER he realized the Rod had Worked as Advertised, and on Ranma. And he was feeling guilty. This shows he had enough integrity to realize it was a screwed up idea, not that he was despicable.

Hind Sight is 20x20.

The day when it's normal for convicted criminals to escape serving sentences for their crimes, because they felt guilty about what they did and realized that what they had done was wrong, is the day when this excuse will be an acceptable argument. When someone does something wrong, when they error, and they learn the error of their ways, that does not mean that what they have done never happened.

You purposefully ignore the fact that Ryoga was no longer doing this in cold blood, but because he was humiliated and enraged. (Like he always is when Ranma messes with him. Or in this case, when it was just creepy.) Your claim that he was trying to kill ranma in what was essentially Pre-Meditated Murder was what was driving this part of the argument in the Koi-Rod story. Having already debunked this, this argument will become a straw man if you continue to try and milk it.

It's not a straw man, and not just because it has not debunked. Are you excusing his actions because of his emotional state? The fact of the matter is that he planned this. The few seconds where he had a change of heart does not change that, especially since he became more resolute afterward. If this were presented in a court of law, his actions would definitely, without question, be called pre-meditated. And, at best, the charge could probably be lowered to manslaughter, had he not been stopped by an outside force. Even if Ryoga had acted out of passion, in the heat of the moment, like he's known to do, that'd still be manslaughter. There's no escaping the responsibility for his actions; not for any of the reasons given so far. He has committed, and has attempted to commit, criminal acts. That must translate to "bad", at least. At least. And, with many of these acts, he does so with malice. Is malice okay? Really?


Red Herring (Or is it Koi?) Fallacy. Invalid (Irrellevent actually) Point.

Wrong. It supports number two. (Promotes bowel health! Okay, not really. Couldn't resist.) Not only do we have the person who committed the action seeing it as wrong, but a third party that does, too. Wrong, in the context of morality. As in: he's done something bad. If we're questioning his character, morality is very relevant. Despicable? Well, I wonder how I'd feel about someone if they tried to force me into loving them. (And that can be added to the list of fallacies, too; I don't care: it still hits the nail on the head.)

Begging the Question Fallacy. Point Five is Invalid.

Couldn't Challenge the Character Behavior that Produces the Supposed Result Fallacy. Thus, Invalidation is Invalid. Didn't think I'd use the Being Childish Fallacy, huh? ;p

Well, that's it for me. I can only stand so much nonsense of this nature. I'm almost willing to assume I'm arguing with someone who has a Ryoga complex. Nothing he does can translate into something bad, or wrong, by any significant measure, or any logical means. Either way, I consider further input, on my part, to be a lost cause. And I've said all that I wanted to say, anyway. I mean, the topic was asking for opinions, anyway... I'll never learn. ;/
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:49 pm

three headed dog wrote:I disagree, since I view a person who does many despicable acts as being a despicable person. That's why I argued about the acts.

That Ryoga did not follow through shows he has a conscience and some morals, it does not prevent him from being viewed as a despicable person.

btw.. Hot blooded murder is still despicable.



Then every one of the cast are despicable. As they all attempt to murder each other at one point or another and do various other 'despicable' things to each other on a daily basis... (Except for Kasumi. Unless she's actually an evil mastermind pretending to be a kind hearted individual, manipulating everyone from the shadows... :twisted: ( :shock: I scare myself here...))
This conversation is pointless, irrellevent, and little more than a lidded attempt at character bashing. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby KonokoHasano » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:06 pm

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:Then every one of the cast are despicable. As they all attempt to murder each other at one point or another and do various other 'despicable' things to each other on a daily basis... (Except for Kasumi. Unless she's actually an evil mastermind pretending to be a kind hearted individual, manipulating everyone from the shadows... :twisted: ( :shock: I scare myself here...))
This conversation is pointless, irrellevent, and little more than a lidded attempt at character bashing. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink.

ImageIt already should be common knowledge that everyone in the cast is capable of being despicable from time to time. Even Kasumi wasn't the saint that everyone portrays her as near the beginning of the manga. There were subtle clues that shoes a different side to her. It's just that Ryoga's issues are much more obvious, and it shouldn't require being driven over by a semi to see that. All one has to do is read through the manga.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:30 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:That doesn't automatically mean there's no truth behind it, at all. The thing about exaggeration is that it's based on what is present. It would be the difference between being angry but saying that you're really angry. That doesn't mean you're not angry. And why would Ryoga react as he did if he had no prior thought in his head about it working just as the instructions said it would? So he reeled in Ranma. So what? Big deal. It wasn't like he had foiled anything that could have potentially happened. Certainly not.


This is stil la weak argument against him though. The actions and thoughts he shows throughout this sequence indicate only a rather idle action on his part. However it is being dragged out and turned into something far more sinister than it really is and using that to enflame the argument in an attempt to prove the point. Focusing on his scream at ranma when Ryoga reeled him in borders on Misleading Vividness. (Another Logical Fallacy)

The day when it's normal for convicted criminals to escape serving sentences for their crimes, because they felt guilty about what they did and realized that what they had done was wrong, is the day when this excuse will be an acceptable argument. When someone does something wrong, when they error, and they learn the error of their ways, that does not mean that what they have done never happened.


There is ambuguity in this kind of case when part of it stems of either ignorance of the crime, or understanding of the crime. While the guilt of the crime is black or white, the sentencing often takes these into account. The judgement of one's character cannot be made on black and white. This is why the Jury convicts, and the Judge, JUDGES.




It's not a straw man, and not just because it has not debunked. Are you excusing his actions because of his emotional state? The fact of the matter is that he planned this. The few seconds where he had a change of heart does not change that, especially since he became more resolute afterward. If this were presented in a court of law, his actions would definitely, without question, be called pre-meditated. And, at best, the charge could probably be lowered to manslaughter, had he not been stopped by an outside force. Even if Ryoga had acted out of passion, in the heat of the moment, like he's known to do, that'd still be manslaughter. There's no escaping the responsibility for his actions; not for any of the reasons given so far. He has committed, and has attempted to commit, criminal acts. That must translate to "bad", at least. At least. And, with many of these acts, he does so with malice. Is malice okay? Really?


Red Herring and Straw Man.
The point of the argument remains on proving he's despicable through his intent and action. I
You fail to invalidate the fact that he could not strike down someone when given a Free Hit by said person.
Were this translated into a scenario where Ryoga was fighting a perfectly sane, helpless individual, the followup reversal would not have occured. At least, not without a grand breakdown of intelligence on the Victim's part. The key point, is that Ryoga had to be goaded into his 'follow through'.

Now, Two Wrongs Don't make a Right, and though Ryoga would still end up guilty of a minimum, assault of his victim, the case would be on shaky grounds as 'incitement' on the Victim's part.

As a result, while guilty for the crime itself, in slated for punishment, Ryoga's character would still be up for grabs.

There's also the Red Herring here that automatically Criminals are despicable people.
In fact, there are a lot of criminals who simply made a bad decision. And likewise, there are a lot of non-criminals who are downright horrible 'despicable' people.


Wrong. It supports number two. (Promotes bowel health! Okay, not really. Couldn't resist.) Not only do we have the person who committed the action seeing it as wrong, but a third party that does, too. Wrong, in the context of morality. As in: he's done something bad. If we're questioning his character, morality is very relevant. Despicable? Well, I wonder how I'd feel about someone if they tried to force me into loving them. (And that can be added to the list of fallacies, too; I don't care: it still hits the nail on the head.)


It's a Red Herring because Akane recognizing it's wrong has no bearing to whether Ryoga Recognizes its Wrong, or his actions.


Couldn't Challenge the Character Behavior that Produces the Supposed Result Fallacy. Thus, Invalidation is Invalid. Didn't think I'd use the Being Childish Fallacy, huh? ;p


Unfortunately, that's not a fallacy. 'Begging the Question' is, and goes like this:
Begging the Question wrote:Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.


Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
Claim C (the conclusion) is true.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."



Well, that's it for me. I can only stand so much nonsense of this nature. I'm almost willing to assume I'm arguing with someone who has a Ryoga complex. Nothing he does can translate into something bad, or wrong, by any significant measure, or any logical means. Either way, I consider further input, on my part, to be a lost cause. And I've said all that I wanted to say, anyway. I mean, the topic was asking for opinions, anyway... I'll never learn. ;/


That's debate for ya'. I picked the side I chose because I disagree with some of the extremist oppinions here. I don't see this 'evil despicable' personality that people are claiming Ryoga has.
I see a chivilrous moron with poor decision making skills and deluded justifications for certain actions.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Cheb » Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:16 pm

Instead of this verbal fencing that leads you nowhere, you'd better cool down for a day or two, then re-read the whole storyline, thoroughly. After that you can go at it again, more productively.

If this were presented in a court of law,

Luckily, the law seems to give these guys a wide berth :P
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:00 pm

I should probably bugger off soon myself. A good strong debate is fun, but it eats up time and keeps me distracted from getting into my work. I have two songs to work on writing. (Anyone know Latin?) An image I haven't done more than a few sketch traces when I have to full CG two of them, and chapter nine of MSLN Test Dummies.

I just can't make myself focus on any of it, so I go tickle my mind with debates instead. (And once I get sucked into one, it eats the days up.)
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Nekomata-sensei » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:49 pm

Despicable is the state of being capable of being despised by people. Some people obviously despise Ryoga, therefore, he is despicable.

That said, being despicable isn't something that worth arguing about, a super nice person who is morally upstanding can be despicable to someone who is annoyed with their personality or jealous of them.

I think the real question is weather Ryoga _deserves_ to be despised, given the phrasing of the topic and initial post. In such a case, I'd go with 'maybe'. Ryoga _is_ morally repugnant, as he does things he knows is wrong, regardless of how emotions and circumstances have influenced him, he does, or attempts to do, things that he knows are wrong, even attempts to excuse them and is often without remorse afterwards. This is something I'd consider making him worthy of being despised. On the other hand, Ryoga could be played out as being worthy of pity, rather than being despised, because he has a rather sucky lot in life with his problematic direction sense and obvious mental issues.

However, in the end, I'd argue that Ryoga is despicable because he does things he knows are bad, and excuses them to himself, often because he can't control his emotions. This is in contrast, to, say, a Super Villain who is motivated by sociological reasons, for instance, one who causes small disasters in order to force society to develop countermeasures against large ones, or an eco-terrorist who attacks legal companies that are polluting and doing bad things for the environment and ignoring concepts of conservation and environmental protection and public health and global warming and such. The super villains in these cases might commit mass premeditated murder, but they do it for impersonal reasons in full grasp of their logical facilities, and rather than believing what they are doing is wrong, they have calculated out the value of their actions against the cost of not performing them, and concluded in a clear logical and correct manner that what they are doing is necessary and right, even if they'd rather not do it if they could just get people to prepare for disasters or care for the environment without being forced. Ryoga on the other hand is behaving in manners he knows and believes is wrong, but is reacting based on his emotions and delusions and excusing his actions with varying justifications that are largely selfish in nature.

The question is perhaps not so much of a 'net right and wrong' or weather or not Ryoga succeeded or backed down or was stopped at the last moment, but the guiding forces behind his actions and personality. Ryoga is in the end, a selfish fool. He occasionally has his heart and general intentions in the right place, but makes himself dangerous by not thinking his actions through and allowing them to be guided by his emotions to the point of him coming up with excuses for behavior he believes is wrong.

A point thrown away by some of those arguing for Ryoga is that during his initial appearances in the manga, he _attempts to kill Ranma in his sleep_, this is not excusable, regardless of him having tried to awaken Ranma first or not. On top of that, at this point he prescribed no direct blame on Ranma for his curse, having had no idea Ranma and the girl and panda who'd been involved in cursing him were related at all, only the bread incident, a fair and officially created competition created by the school that Ryoga's initial grudge against Ranma was an issue of Ryoga _being a sore looser_, followed by missing a match that he apparently knew, or guessed, Ranma had waited 3 days for.

Oh yeah, and his initial attack on Ranma in the schoolyard was a rather lethal looking and destructive surprise attack, and he hadn't even seen, so couldn't have even subconsciously suspected Ranma's involvement in his curse. This against someone who'd waited three days for him for their duel, when he could have easily been disqualified on the first day, and only defeated him in fair and sanctioned competitions in something as measly as bread. Yeah, real worthy of a murderous surprise attack... NOT.

Now back to the koi rod issue. Ryoga's proponents have pointed out that he doubted the Rod would work and was just going through the motions playing around with it, because he got it cheap anyway. However, he still got it because he was _tempted to use it_, in such a way that implied he would have gotten a more expensive item, used it on Akane, and _trusted it more for being more expensive_. Not trusting the product doesn't excuse his intentions for buying it in the first place, especially since the item has no other purpose and is rather unwieldy to travel around with, and thus unsuitable as a cheap souvenir.

Next, Ryoga may have been pushed into his desire to murder Ranma, and hesitated when the opportunity arrived due to moral qualms, but he was still able to overcome those when motivated again by Ranma's behavior, indicating that while knowing it was wrong, he was still fully wiling to do it if Ranma _annoyed and disgusted him_. Gee whiz, I guess the next time I run across some annoying homeless guy who hasn't bathed in months that follows me begging for money it is okay for me to murder him so long as I am delusional and thus insane, perhaps in some warped desire to protect my little brother or mom or someone. Give me a break! You wouldn't be arguing this way for some soppy romantic who kills a homeless guy begging for money to 'protect' his girlfriend, would you? Perhaps this analogy is a bit loose, but the logical points remain the same, the only thing you can do is introduce mitigating factors in comparison to the analogy, not dispute the logic of this point.

Of course, there is also various other incidents that the Ryoga proponents seem determined to ignore, such as his rough treatment of his supposed secret admirer (fiancee?) when Ranma pretended to be such in order to get him away from Akane, the two timing incident with Akane and Akari which he lied to Ranma in order to try and get away with, the initial plans they went through with the locking ladle, regardless of trying to help Ranma against Herb later who he knew he stood no chance against by helping cure Ranma then, mid-battle, in a way that risked the cure at that. Oh, and let's not forget how Ryoga's attacks and destructive behavior often cause damage to public and private property he cares nothing about, just as he takes out his anxiety on his surroundings. Yup, and his treatment of Akane during the waterproof soap incident... wait, and gee, he is unwilling to share even a bit of this soap he found by accident with even Shampoo, who it really belongs to, effectively having stolen it and held onto it for his own selfish reasons... not to mention mocking Ranma over getting kissed by Mikaido Sanezin... not to mention using attacks that often endanger innocent bystanders... gee, it leaves me wondering why you try and defend him at all!

Let's face it though, Ryoga _does_ get slowly better later on in the series, mostly because he somehow became a popular character (perhaps because he was less worse than a lot of the others in such a ridiculous series, or the fangirls found him hot, or the action lovers realized he had some of the closest fights with Ranma). This indicates he isn't irredeemable, especially since he does have some sense of right and wrong, even if he doesn't always follow it. Of course right afterwards during the failed wedding he joins in attempting to steal Ranma's cure... regardless of weather or not Ryoga also deserves a cure, trying to justify this is like trying to justify if someone invented a super cure for dwarfism, and a poor dwarf stole it from another dwarf who won it in a contest who they had some personal problems with. So Ryoga is still an insanely selfish idiot near the end too.

Then there is Ryoga's occasional 'good' actions, trying to be nice to Akane, or Akari, or some random cute girl... conclusion, he's a teen, and wants to get laid... selfish! Helping Ranma in other battles? Doesn't want to kill Ranma while Ranma is weakened or unable to fight back? Hm... what would this say about his own martial arts abilities? Selfish, not to mention inconsistent, as he often flips around and changes his mind. Helping out against strong foes is also selfish because Herb or Saffron would have killed or at least beaten up Ryoga, and Ryoga knew it, if Ranma lost, and regardless, rather than properly teaming up with Ranma, he hung back and only offered a modicum of limited help from a distance, often in ways that risked or endangered Ranma as well. Selfish! Fighting Ranma to protect Akane's feelings? Maybe a bit better, until you take into account that Ranma is hurting Akane's feelings partly in retaliation for her own mistreatment of him (like trying to make him eat her horrid cooking) or his own accidental foot-in-mouth bluntness issues and lack of social skills, and Akane is almost as much, if not more upset, by Ranma and Ryoga fighting than by Ranma's mistreatment of her, and if Ryoga really cared about her feelings he'd be paying attention to them, rather than looking for excuses to fight Ranma when Ranma annoys him and clashes with Ryoga's worldview.

But please, if you really have any _valid_ points, continue arguing for Ryoga's case. I enjoy a healthy debate. So far however, the proponents for Ryoga's side have used either ignoring the points against, or trying to debunk them with questionable nit-picking and psychological excuses which would more appropriately be applied to the likes of Kodachi or Kuno, who nobody tries to argue aren't worthy of beatings and hatred.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:07 pm

I don't have time to split the entire post down at the moment, but I'll address the commentary on Ryoga's "Other Actions."

Mainly, I ignore these actions because they are typical of the entire Ranma cast, not just Ryoga.

I'm operating on the presumption that this thread, and its title, is operating from the perspective of the story and its context, not from our own legal system's perspective. And that the label of 'despicable' is to be applied that Ryoga is despicable, in relation to the ranma cast.

As such, I dismiss any activities he has participated in in terms of hostilities or moral issues unless these are such as to be above the norm for the remaining cast of characters. To do otherwise is to imply to be holding Ryoga Habiki, to a different, More Real World, set of standards (Especially Legal Standards that have been flung) in reguard to the rest of the characters, and would be a Double Standard. (Which is one of those fallacies that REALLY piss me off because I experience it a lot in real life.)

If you apply these standards to Ryoga, these standards must be applied to ALL characters. And if you do such, ALL characters are guilty of 'despicable' activities... mainly assault and battery. Thus, the question of the thread becomes academic, but what is more, it shows that people are trying to single Ryoga out, and becomes plainly obvious to be nothing more than thinly disguised character bashing.

Now, just for the record, I dislike character bashing. I see it as pointless, childish behavior coming from people who should know better.
I'm highly suspect of people who go as far as to give Ryoga a 'despicable' label when he's got PLENTY of company. Especially people who try to raise every technicality and litteral 'Word of the Law' to support the case.

Has Ryoga attacked Ranma with the intent to maim or kill? Yes. Countless times. Is it bad? Yes.
But so has Shampoo, the Kuno Sublings, Ukyo, Happosai, Cologne, Ranma's Father, half a dozen one shots and supporting cast members I can't even recall at the moment AND AKANE. (Who supposedly actually likes him, but's the classic Tsundere.)

All these participants naturally, in a real life setting and its standards, would have been arrested and charged on multiple counts of agravated assault, harassment, illegal entry, attempted murder, vandalism, disturbing the peace, theft, (potential) violation of city ordinances, weapons laws, and public endangerment. On top of this, all counts of agravated assault would include the 'with a deadly weapon' clause. As a martial artists fists at the levels Ranma and Co. dish out are considered deadly weapons and must be registered.

Have a wonderful life brawling in prison!

Except property destroying violence on school grounds, assault, battery, home invasion, and various other crimes here are not punished, or even enforced. Therefor the application of the standard is flawed and make the topic irrellevent.

Now... Do you REALLY want to apply THIS standard to the case? Say 'yes' please... I dare you!

I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU! :mrgreen:

I must be off...
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby KonokoHasano » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:03 pm

Wish I didn't suck at debating. Image

I don't have time to split the entire post down at the moment, but I'll address the commentary on Ryoga's "Other Actions."

Mainly, I ignore these actions because they are typical of the entire Ranma cast, not just Ryoga.

I'm operating on the presumption that this thread, and its title, is operating from the perspective of the story and its context, not from our own legal system's perspective. And that the label of 'despicable' is to be applied that Ryoga is despicable, in relation to the ranma cast.

As such, I dismiss any activities he has participated in in terms of hostilities or moral issues unless these are such as to be above the norm for the remaining cast of characters. To do otherwise is to imply to be holding Ryoga Habiki, to a different, More Real World, set of standards (Especially Legal Standards that have been flung) in reguard to the rest of the characters, and would be a Double Standard. (Which is one of those fallacies that REALLY piss me off because I experience it a lot in real life.)

..............Image

In a way, you kind of threw almost your entire defense for Ryoga out the window with that.

If you apply these standards to Ryoga, these standards must be applied to ALL characters. And if you do such, ALL characters are guilty of 'despicable' activities... mainly assault and battery.

I'd like to say that it's pretty obvious that all the characters have their own cases of 'despicable' activities. Even Ranma can be petty and cruel about things if/when the right situation presents itself.

but what is more, it shows that people are trying to single Ryoga out, and becomes plainly obvious to be nothing more than thinly disguised character bashing.

Now, just for the record, I dislike character bashing. I see it as pointless, childish behavior coming from people who should know better.
I'm highly suspect of people who go as far as to give Ryoga a 'despicable' label when he's got PLENTY of company. Especially people who try to raise every technicality and litteral 'Word of the Law' to support the case.

I'd like to say that I don't think that it is character bashing as much as it is looking at ALL of Ryoga's behavior, actions, and intentions to deduce if he really is a terrible and wrongful character. It is not character bashing to discuss if a character really is a despicable piece of something or not. Pointing out the faults, issues, deeds, personality, and whatever else that shows what a character is really like is mostly just figuring out the character and seeing them for who/how they are.

I don't hate Ryoga. In fact, I find him to be an interesting character from time to time. However, I do view him as a complete and total jackass, and I do agree with all of the points in this thread regarding just how much of a terrible character he can be.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:16 pm

EDIT (since Konoko posted while I was making my post): AdmiralTigerclaw:

Okay, that's it. I won't stand bullying from someone who's wrong about their presumption and trying to make the subject's argument revolve around their own idea of how the subject should be approached. And when someone doesn't approach the question the way you want them to, you call it a straw man fallacy, because, obviously, the method of approach is somehow a one-way street through you. Everyone is entitled to use their own methods for discerning what makes Ryoga a despicable character or not; just because someone may have a different method does not mean it invalidates their opinion. In fact, the very fact that it asks for an opinion should make that obvious.

How our reasoning and opinions are applied to Ryoga hold no bearing on the other characters, for the subject is not about them. It's not that they don't matter, and it's not that they can't be held in contrast or comparison to Ryoga in one's reasoning: it's because the subject focuses on Ryoga. Had the question been "which Ranma 1/2 characters do you think are despicable", then drawing in all of the characters would be a matter of course. It's logical to hold other characters to the same standards that are used on Ryoga, but to force everyone to do so would discriminate those who like or hate certain characters, who are wholly and fully entitled to their feelings and beliefs regardless of whether we agree with them or not. (Basically, it's alright for people to hold different characters to different standards.) This is an open platform, after all.

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:Has Ryoga attacked Ranma with the intent to maim or kill? Yes. Countless times. Is it bad? Yes.
But so has Shampoo, the Kuno Sublings, Ukyo, Happosai, Cologne, Ranma's Father, half a dozen one shots and supporting cast members I can't even recall at the moment AND AKANE. (Who supposedly actually likes him, but's the classic Tsundere.)

And if you're going to try to hold us to your own brand of logic and stipulations for making valid arguments, the least you could do was not contradict yourself. You've argued that Ryoga isn't bad, and yet, now, you say that what he has done is bad. Okay, so how can doing bad things not put him into a position to be seen as a despicable person? And I put it that way because, obviously, the conclusion will be a matter of opinion, and not the word of God that you make your conclusions out to be.

[sarcasm]I'm sure I've done something "wrong" by addressing this problem[/sarcasm], but I beg to differ. I'm pretty sure it's alright to protect the integrity of the discussion/debate's platform, since it's only when done properly that the people involved can be treated fairly. So it's relevant and, above all, I didn't do any defaming in the process. Speaking of which:

Now, just for the record, I dislike character bashing. I see it as pointless, childish behavior coming from people who should know better.
I'm highly suspect of people who go as far as to give Ryoga a 'despicable' label when he's got PLENTY of company. Especially people who try to raise every technicality and litteral 'Word of the Law' to support the case.

Here, you're assuming that we're character bashing, on the presumption that we must (but are not) include the rest of the cast for judgment. So, instead of doing it directly, you're being condescending and calling us childish through dastardly means. That doesn't make it okay, and certainly not right.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:44 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Okay, that's it. I won't stand bullying


Bullying? Would you LIKE me to BULLY? I guarantee. No such thing has taken place on my word and honor. If I wanted to BULLY, you'd know it. I have a vicious streak in me when I'm rendered upset. As an ex-soldier, and as a person of high moral integrity. I find this offensive.

(As a member of spacebattles, I find you need to grow a thicker hide if my conversation and debating with you has become comparable to BULLYING. Just saying, you'd be in a thorough RAGE by the likes of White Rabbit in one shot. He LOVES personal attacks and has the skills to weave very vicious, hard to counter arguments. Ask Arty, he can tell you how vicious it is over there at times.)

I'm going out of my way here to word my statements nicely, not to make any kind of exceptionally derogitory personal attacks (save for maybe a friendly poke), and not to do things like call people stupid (or much, much worse). So do me a favor and do not call me a bully again. I don't get hostile until I'm acted against as a matter of principle. But I don't believe in half-measures.

from someone who's wrong about their presumption and trying to make the subject's argument revolve around their own idea of how the subject should be approached. And when someone doesn't approach the question the way you want them to, you call it a straw man fallacy, because, obviously, the method of approach is somehow a one-way street through you. Everyone is entitled to use their own methods for discerning what makes Ryoga a despicable character or not; just because someone may have a different method does not mean it invalidates their opinion. In fact, the very fact that it asks for an opinion should make that obvious.


Debating through a constant string of fallacies and il formed arguments does not constitute a 'method'. Supporting one's argument in a debate through a series of exaggerations, inaccuracies, deliberate ignorance of context, and false standards is not a valid argument: PERIOD.

Claiming that people are entitled to use this 'method' is the same as claiming that people are entitled to eating RAT POISON instead of cereal.

Now, they're perfectly welcome to eat their rat poison, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still rat poison, and it's still bad for them.

How our reasoning and opinions are applied to Ryoga hold no bearing on the other characters, for the subject is not about them. It's not that they don't matter, and it's not that they can't be held in contrast or comparison to Ryoga in one's reasoning: it's because the subject focuses on Ryoga. Had the question been "which Ranma 1/2 characters do you think are despicable", then drawing in all of the characters would be a matter of course. It's logical to hold other characters to the same standards that are used on Ryoga, but to force everyone to do so would discriminate those who like or hate certain characters, who are wholly and fully entitled to their feelings and beliefs regardless of whether we agree with them or not. (Basically, it's alright for people to hold different characters to different standards.)


The reasonings and oppinions must be refferenced off the other characters as part of the CONTEXT of the STORY...

If any analysis of Ryoga as a character is to be made with any accuracy, his fellow characters need to be included as a point of refference and contrast to judge him. This is of key importance because he is from a story where he, as well as the rest of the cast, are not comparable to regular humans. Niether physically, or in the legal sense. (The, point I mentioned about all the charges they'd end up with, remember?) The story is suspended in a fictional sense where the consiquences of actions are blatently ignored, and the humans being presented are more than a little SUPER human. The only comparable refference between these characters, is the characters themselves.


And if you're going to try to hold us to your own brand of logic and stipulations for making valid arguments, the least you could do was not contradict yourself. You've argued that Ryoga isn't bad, and yet, now, you say that what he has done is bad. Okay, so how can doing bad things not put him into a position to be seen as a despicable person? And I put it that way because, obviously, the conclusion will be a matter of opinion, and not the word of God that you make your conclusions out to be.


I see you missed the entire point of this section and jumped right ON the fact that what I said about this LITTERAL interpretation was reverse to my oppinion. Not unexpected. But you're attacking thin air here.
What I'm trying to show, is if I am to apply the Written Law Standards, everyone must be judged equally to provide the refferences to compare Ryoga to. I'm trying to point out to you that it is bad practice to hold a double standard because changing the standard changes the very nature of the debate.

The reason that there is a double standard is that this debate started (Or appeared to have started) as an In Context debate. Which implies that he is being judged relevent to the rest of the cast. As soon as those holding the more extreme oppinion of Ryoga started having shaky trouble finalizing their position against my points, they switched from the contextual standard to a litteralist standard in order to uphold the point they were making. In doing that, I was forced to point out that everyone else is equally guilty in such a standard, and that makes any attempt to distinguish Ryoga's moral character completely whacked and makes no sense in light of the OP's seemingly context based question.

As you should be aware now that I've spouted it several times. My oppinion that I am upholding that Ryoga is NOT despicable, is based on my In-Context views of his actions. Not the Letter of the Law views that completely render any comparison, worthless.

My oppinion of Ryoga is that he is, and I quote: "A chivilrous moron with poor decision making skills and deluded justifications for certain actions." This oppinion is based on my examination of his character, within the context of the story. Not a court of law, not compared to my next door neighbor, or myself, but within the context of the story, along side the character of his peers. And this, I stand by.

[sarcasm]I'm sure I've done something "wrong" by addressing this problem[/sarcasm], but I beg to differ. I'm pretty sure it's alright to protect the integrity of the discussion/debate, since it's only when done properly that the people involved can be treated fairly. So it's relevant and, above all, I didn't do any defaming in the process. Speaking of which:


It's only protection of the debate, and fair to the people involved, if it was fair to begin with. A Double Standard by its very nature, is unfair.


Here, you're assuming that we're character bashing, on the presumption that we must (but are not) include the rest of the cast for judgment. So, instead of doing it directly, you're being condescending and calling us childish through dastardly means. That doesn't make it okay, and certainly not right.


Incorrect. You should read the previous statement before that quote. If Ryoga is applied to the same universal standard and judgement as the rest of the cast, based on Letter of the Law treatment. He's guilty as everyone else. Only he's getting singled out here and attacked. That pretty much sounds like character bashing. Intentional or not. Which I supplied here to point out that I'm pretty certain that character bashing was not the intent of the OP's rather honest question.

As I noted that, I assumed that the debate was occuring within context, and that Ryoga would be judged reletive to characters that are to be the frames of refference. Like Shampoo, who is often vicious, petty, and cunning. But sweet when she wants to be. Or Genma, who's a greedy coward... or Kodachi Kuno, for whom, dirty tricks are the entire point of her character. (That and she's totally Batshit Insane. Which makes any attempt by her to be sweet something that sends chills up your spine.) A Trial By Jury, if you will, of his Peers.

If I was wrong in assuming we were going to judge him in-context and fairly, I apologize.

So... Ryoga... I guess the verdict's in. Those judging you have picked your place in history. Are you ready?

"You are a slimy, disgusting, worm ridden, grrreen discharge of a man, aren't you?"
- Arnold J. Rimmer, Red Dwarf


(Arnold Rimmer. Now there's a despicable character if there ever was one. A loathesome piece of filth who's only redeeming quality, is that he died. Twice. Unless of course you consider his paralelle universe self... Ace Rimmer. ... What a guy.)
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:49 pm

I apologize if I got the wrong impression. Let us come to an understanding, then.

The standard you're trying to hold us to is too high. Many of us are simply fans passing some time, and make do with what they know or don't know of debates. It's nothing like the standards of debate teams, including the establishment of a formal format. And, because we're fans, and don't expect the medium of our expressions to be strictly guided, we have to allow room for opinions that are unsupported by logic but sensible to emotion. It's this openness that allows everyone in, and doesn't snub anyone out. You only have to tolerate whichever end of the spectrum that you don't like. The reason why I called it bullying was because the challenge was trying to force others to do more than what's required, and probably more than some of us (including myself) know how to handle adequately.

That's why it should be okay for all of us to judge Ryoga however we please; especially if it's what we're comfortable and familiar with. Whether it be by law, the context of real-life society, the context of the fictional world, the opinions of the fictional characters around Ryoga, or even the opinions of the character in question themselves. And if someone thinks that Ryoga isn't despicable, simply because they like him, that's par for the course. Fans will be fans, after all. There's really nothing more to expect.

Personally, as I said in the beginning, I don't think Ryoga is a despicable person. I thought pathetic was the ideal way to label him. I only tried to reason with your position, by approaching it in different ways (using the law was the last one), because it seemed like you were negating everyone else's opinion despite them only being opinions, to make yours stand out as right even though there really isn't a right answer.

I got frustrated because you were immovable, regarding your strictness, but I wasn't trying to attack you. I didn't know how else to address it, you know? I probably should have done something like this first, though. Ah, well. You can't always get it right first every time.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:19 pm

I wouldn't go to far into it myself really... however with the issue I will note for you, I was challenged by others to more and more dedicated 'debate form' arguments as things progressed. I made my first comment, and then it was challenged, so I elaborated, that was challenged more vigorously, so I took it as my cue to commence a debate about it.
By the time the Koi Rod segment of the Debate was in full swing, I'm pretty much butting heads with people that seem determined to reinforce their oppinion as fact. (If your oppinion is just oppinion, why are you trying so hard to fight me over it?)

*Shrug*

As something worth mentioning. I don't have these fallacies memorized. I read the arguments and look for something that seems like it's just plain 'off', then I compared it to every single one of the things here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I was not pulling these things out of thin air. I was seriously reading these arguments and finding the problems. (Including the clicking on the suspected fallacy and examining its structure and example and comparing it. I did my homework.)

I've come to recognize the straw man almost on sight though. Boy oh boy. Internet forum debates LOVE to have their scare crows.

One thing that makes me happy though...

No Ad Hominems... (Except maybe where you previously attacked what 'appeared' to be my change of position. Ad Hominem Tu Quoque... But I knew what you meant there.)

Man that was a breath of fresh air. Nobody attacking ME, my circumstances, or my actions or past actions in an attempt to invalidate my claims. (Want to see Ad Hominems in action, just watch some politics. Political candidates absolutely SHRED each other with Ad Hominem.)
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby KonokoHasano » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:28 pm

By the time the Koi Rod segment of the Debate was in full swing, I'm pretty much butting heads with people that seem determined to reinforce their oppinion as fact. (If your oppinion is just oppinion, why are you trying so hard to fight me over it?)

Because YOU were trying beyond the extreme to fight over yours, by telling people that their arguments were merely 'strawmen' and trying to accuse people of 'fallacies' by not even really going over the character itself. Constantly taking real-world scenarios, psychological terms, and whatever else to over complicate the subject at hand and to try and prove your point.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:44 pm

EDIT (I must be a slow writer... oh, right, I am. ;/ ): AdmiralTigerclaw:

I agree. Ad hominems are certainly something we can do without.

Getting challenged, and thus having to elaborate, is pretty much to be expected, though. We all have different reasons for why we do it, and for how far we go with it. Some of us will do it to elevate their opinion as holding the most truth, and others might apply more pressure because they feel their opinions aren't getting the recognition they think it deserves. It's a complicated issue.

As for myself, as the only person I can speak for, I have a habit of questioning anything I find, well, questionable. I'm sure it can get annoying, at times. I have nothing to gain from it, but I do it anyway. I suppose it might have something to do with not having a life, and having nothing better to do. Who knows. I only stuck around with this as much as I did because I couldn't figure out why so many points (made by myself and others) that appeared to be valid points (whether I agreed with them or not) couldn't be accepted.

I dunno. When I think about it, the changing of tactics just makes things different, not more difficult, when applied. I really didn't think anyone was raising the bar on the discussion, so much as trying to jump over one another's. By the time you set yours up, the focus changed to jumping over yours, since it was (or quickly became) the highest. Or something. Maybe that makes sense.

Well, we're going off-topic, anyway. I'm just glad we could clear this up. The last thing I want is hard feelings. It tends to spoil the mood of the place you enjoy to visit.
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