Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:31 pm

KonokoHasano wrote:Because YOU were trying beyond the extreme to fight over yours, by telling people that their arguments were merely 'strawmen' and trying to accuse people of 'fallacies' by not even really going over the character itself. Constantly taking real-world scenarios, psychological terms, and whatever else to over complicate the subject at hand and to try and prove your point.



To be frank, I'm going to have to say that I find your half-venomous response funny. You stick Strawmen and Fallacies in quotes as if you don't believe in them. Unfotunately. Logical Fallacies are not fairies. They don't drop dead just because you don't believe.
They have structures which are almost mathamatical. They are not partially right, or partially wrong, they are not vague and subjective. They do not depend on context, accuracy of information, or oppinion.
They are like a math problem answered incorrectlly.
They are flaws in the logic of the argument itself. As such, the conclusions drawn from those arguments are inaccurate, and invalid.

The definition of straw man not only shows you the structure, but explains it.

1 Person A has position X.
2 Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3 Person B attacks position Y.
4 Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

When my argument was taken, distorted, and then attacked like it had been several times in order to prove my argument 'incorrect', it was a straw man. Attacking that distortion of my argument does not constitute an attack on my position. The distorted argument is no longer my argument at all. As the thing says, you might as well be attacking a drawing of my face on a sheet of paper. (Or perhaps, attacking a straw man dressed like me. Likely toe source of 'Straw Man'.) Thus, attacking the distortion of my argument only proves that the distorted argument is wrong, not MY argument.

If you deny it, you merely bury your head in the sand.

I'm not being mean or malicious about it. If the argument's a straw man, it's a straw man. If I sit there and argue about the straw man rather than my argument, I'm just wasting my time right? What's the point in aguring a point that's not mine? That would be stupid of me. So rather than waste my time with the side argument, I just point it out.
Of course, since I call you on your error, it naturally pisses you off. (I know it pissed me off until I got my hands on the fallacies and kept them for refference.) You want me to address the counter argument, on your terms. And in calling it a straw man, I have declared I will not, that I refuse to engage you on your terms after you engaged me on mine... And in a way, it can be percieved as flinging mud in your face. So I know where you're coming from here.

What's a guy to do? Let my argument go on distorted and screwed up, shouting pedantic nitpickery over every little detail until I turn blue in the face? Risk making people angry because I'm calling them on stuff? Respond to a flawed argument with even MORE flawed arguments? Roll over and die? :?

Or maybe I should just use a really extreme version of a logical fallacy known as personal attack, and call in a lance strike.
Your agument can't be right if you're a molten crater after all... heheheh. :twisted:


OR CAN IT?! :shock: (DUN DUN DUN!!!)

So chill out. Maybe instead of bristling up like a porcupine, you should look at WHY I called it as a straw man. I had to have a reason to call you on it. I had to have seen a distortion of my argument to make that call.

Know what I mean?
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LawOhki » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:40 pm

There's no real reason to engage tigerclaw in discussion. He's not having a one, he's stated an opinion that was challenged with evidence that he ignored to focus on how the evidence was being presented. He believes that attacking the person's argument in effect proves that his position is correct.

BTW that's a false dichotomy, since you love being all technical.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:41 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:EDIT (I must be a slow writer... oh, right, I am. ;/ ): AdmiralTigerclaw:

I agree. Ad hominems are certainly something we can do without.

Getting challenged, and thus having to elaborate, is pretty much to be expected, though. We all have different reasons for why we do it, and for how far we go with it. Some of us will do it to elevate their opinion as holding the most truth, and others might apply more pressure because they feel their opinions aren't getting the recognition they think it deserves. It's a complicated issue.

As for myself, as the only person I can speak for, I have a habit of questioning anything I find, well, questionable. I'm sure it can get annoying, at times. I have nothing to gain from it, but I do it anyway. I suppose it might have something to do with not having a life, and having nothing better to do. Who knows. I only stuck around with this as much as I did because I couldn't figure out why so many points (made by myself and others) that appeared to be valid points (whether I agreed with them or not) couldn't be accepted.

I dunno. When I think about it, the changing of tactics just makes things different, not more difficult, when applied. I really didn't think anyone was raising the bar on the discussion, so much as trying to jump over one another's. By the time you set yours up, the focus changed to jumping over yours, since it was (or quickly became) the highest. Or something. Maybe that makes sense.

Well, we're going off-topic, anyway. I'm just glad we could clear this up. The last thing I want is hard feelings. It tends to spoil the mood of the place you enjoy to visit.



*Shrug.*

Who knows. I don't consider a debate to have tactics in the sense we're used to. If you're using tactics, that implies that you are trying to maneuver against the opponent. Maneuver implies that you are trying to account for both a strong point, and a weak point. A weak point implies a flaw. A flaw means there's something wrong with the argument. If you're trying to maneuver to cover for the flaw, that means you know about it, and are trying to hide it. Which means you're being dishonest about it... which implies that your argument is not as correct as you are trying to lead people to believe.

I know I've been guilty of maneuver in an argument before.


EDIT: @ LawOhki

Except I supported my argument, and then picked the argument trying to rip my argument up, apart. If your argument's entire purpose is to render mine invalid, there is nothing I really need to do except take your argument apart, as my argument continues to stand. I need not replace it with a new one.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby KonokoHasano » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:50 pm

I wish I had a good facepalm picture right now, but... jeez.


Tigerclaw, I did not venomously attack you in my statement. I was merely stating -- in my belief -- what you were doing, because you were acting as if everyone was trying to attack you with their opinion for you having one. You took what I said and completely twisted it into what you believed it was, as well as went on a long-winded rant about my reply. Your accusing me of the very same thing you are doing... distorting what is being said.

Just... really... I don't know. Imagex100 if I could.

Seriously, Tigerclaw, just... seriously.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:04 am

I'm format sensitive.

"Because YOU..." comes off as a very loud, stern vocal. The start of a fast, angry paragraph. Maybe I should have pointed out that I have a vivid imagination for that kind of thing.

My fault there. I overreacted to what 'sounds like' a snarl.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LawOhki » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:13 am

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:EDIT: @ LawOhki

Except I supported my argument, and then picked the argument trying to rip my argument up, apart. If your argument's entire purpose is to render mine invalid, there is nothing I really need to do except take your argument apart, as my argument continues to stand. I need not replace it with a new one.

The only person who has been debating by arguing against a persons "argument" is you, like I said you've ignored any evidence presented, and even claimed that no one could refute your statement or it would be a "straw man."

You wrote:You purposefully ignore the fact that Ryoga was no longer doing this in cold blood, but because he was humiliated and enraged. (Like he always is when Ranma messes with him. Or in this case, when it was just creepy.) Your claim that he was trying to kill ranma in what was essentially Pre-Meditated Murder was what was driving this part of the argument in the Koi-Rod story. Having already debunked this, this argument will become a straw man if you continue to try and milk it.


You've also ignored "argument from fallacy" which is a logical fallacy that assumes that if an argument is fallacious, its conclusion must be false.

Maybe instead of using terms you don't understand, you should go back and read the manga, since you have admitted your own ignorance after making your first assertion.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:13 am

LawOhki wrote:The only person who has been debating by arguing against a persons "argument" is you, like I said you've ignored any evidence presented, and even claimed that no one could refute your statement or it would be a "straw man."


However, I have not ignored the evidence. I presented my case twice, and offered opposition.
Continuing to milk the same case by altering it and presenting that a half dozen different times is going to turn it into a straw man. None of these altered cases would matter. They aren't the point that was refuted.

"Pre meditated murder!"
He didn't.

"Meditated pre murder!"
He didn't...

"Murder Meditated pre!
...No.

"Murder pre meditated!"
...Come on now!

"dermur dta-"
You going to come up with something else? Or keep changing the underwear on that scarecrow?


I really didn't want to have to go over what looked like what was going to be a real obnoxious 'running gag' of an 'argument' ad infinitum.

The arugment was starting to ressemble this:

[START]
-Ryoga lead Ranma out there.-
"Okay"
-Ryoga PLANNED it-
"And..."
-RYOGA DUG THE GRAVE!-
"Today please..."
-HE FLIPPIN DAYDREAMED ABOUT IT!-
"...Then what?"

RYOGA: I CAN'T DO IT!!!

Ryoga loaded the gun, took the safety off, Ryoga cocked the proverbial HAMMER and stuck it to the back of Ranma's head. But when he had that chance, he never pulled the trigger.

BUT! BUT! Then he got freaked out by ranma and tried to kill him anyway.
O_o "Doesn't he freak out and try to kill ranma like that all the time?"
"This time it's EEEEVIL. Because he went through all the pre-meditated murder stuff this time!"
"I fail to see how the same old Rip&Tear! routine they always get into makes this inherently more foul, despicable, and evil than any other Rip&Tear! routine."
-Becasue he pre-meditated it!-
"Yeah, that stopped when he stopped, and got replaced with the standard comedy routine."
"No it didn't! Look at the EVIDENCE!"
[Return to Start]


Feh I don't know. I feel we can go over this to ad infinitum.
I might just be failing to see whatever it is you're seeing in the evidence. But I'm not convinced. I see the Pre-Meditated Murder sequence as stopping at the declaration of his inability to do it... and a slapstick gag routine starting in its place.

Like Ryoga finally pulls the trigger on the gun, and a flag pops out and it says 'BANG!'



You've also ignored "argument from fallacy" which is a logical fallacy that assumes that if an argument is fallacious, its conclsion must be false.


Nice. So the list is incomplete. Thanks for that. I will admit that I got a little guilty of that. However, it does not refute my counter-point.

But... we seem to be hinging on an issue that is in its very core factor, a divergence on a critical factor. I call the followup the 'usual stuff', you consider it 'Plan A continues.'


I see my viewpoint. "Well, there goes Ryoga in to Rip&Tear Mode". And your viewpoint is: "He's only hesitating."

Perhaps before we get into a similar 'relationship'. (IE, try to kill each other at the expense of the local property owners.)

We should agree to disagree.

Fair Enough?
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LadyRelena » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:55 am

Wow I didn't know that this thread was going to have such a long turnout for what I original thought was a simple question. Guess I was wrong. Anyway, this debate seems to be going in a somewhat ugly direction and it's making me feel bad for even starting this thread. Please keep this civil everyone.

That being said; on to Ryoga. I have to agree that in the context of Ranma 1/2 cast - Ryoga does seem to have more morals then most. I could talk about all the nice things he as done in the anime but I'm sure most people would discount that as "not the original canon" so I will stick to the manga. I have already previously pointed Ryouga's selflessness in the Ryugenzawa arc and how the incident with Akane and Akari wasn't much different from what Ranma did with Shampoo in the Reversal Jewel arc. Now, is Ryoga despicable in a REAL sense? Yeah, but so is ever other character in Ranma. As for the comparisons to the other characters, Ryoga actually has more morals then the Kuno siblings, The two fathers, Happosi, Taro, Nabiki, and Shampoo {manga only} (as much as I love her.) I could go more into my reasoning but I feel somewhat exasperated with this subject and I doubt it's that hard to see why I would make this assumption.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:30 am

Don't sweat the small stuff LadyRelena.

What we have here is a rather well handled debate with just a bit of force in a few places.

Compared to the flame wars I'm used to, it's nothing.
So don't feel guilty.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Konsaki » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:38 am

Maybe a little less attacking each other and more attacking/defending Ryoga might be called for right about now? :?
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LawOhki » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:33 am

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:"Pre meditated murder!"
He didn't.


Ryoga loaded the gun, took the safety off, Ryoga cocked the proverbial HAMMER and stuck it to the back of Ranma's head. But when he had that chance, he never pulled the trigger.

You've just admitted that he planned it. Which dur, is premeditated. Stopping at the last second because Ranma chose some pretty words that put him in a position where his limited set of morals wouldn't let him go through with it, doesn't stop the hours of planning and execution up to that point. Nor does it become a "gag" Ryoga did set out once again to kill Ranma, and he was well past the insta-rage by the time he actually got Ranma into a position to do it.

People who aren't despicable don't set out to murder people, let alone do they do it thinking they'll be rewarded for it. Which Ryoga did again during the Herb arc, both him and Mousse planning to betray Ranma, leave him locked as a girl, and dispose of him. They got to the first part of the plan, but stopped when they were locked themselves.

There's even a point where Ryoga refuses to die because he believes that only he is the right one for Akane. Once again he sees Akane as just a prize to be won, and cares not for her opinion. Which is the arc where Ryoga chases down Akane to give her a hug even though she's absolutely terrified of him again?

Ryoga also labored under the delusion that he could use the breaking point to kill Ranma with a single blow. Every attempt in that duel was him trying to explode Ranma into gory little bits. Obviously death is a possibility in such a fight, but once again Ryoga planned out killing Ranma way ahead of time, it was his entire purpose in training with Cologne. He wasn't fighting Ranma to win the duel, he was trying to kill someone in a formal setting.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:58 pm

LawOhki wrote:You've just admitted that he planned it. Which dur, is premeditated.


I'm unsure if you missread what I said. But it was supposed to be taken as: "He didn't [follow through]"
Just to clarify.

Stopping at the last second because Ranma chose some pretty words that put him in a position where his limited set of morals wouldn't let him go through with it, doesn't stop the hours of planning and execution up to that point. Nor does it become a "gag" Ryoga did set out once again to kill Ranma, and he was well past the insta-rage by the time he actually got Ranma into a position to do it.


This would be where we have to agree to disagree. As far as I'm concerned, intent and actions unhook at that moment, with the change of pace. You continue to see the comedic scene that follows as a played straight event, I do not. Attempting to convince each other of that is going to burn our energy out.

As for later 'well past the insta-rage' , one must remember that during the entire running 'fight' going on here, Ranma's continuing to goad him on and pour gasoline on the fire.


People who aren't despicable don't set out to murder people, let alone do they do it thinking they'll be rewarded for it. Which Ryoga did again during the Herb arc, both him and Mousse planning to betray Ranma, leave him locked as a girl, and dispose of him. They got to the first part of the plan, but stopped when they were locked themselves.


I note a discrepency here. Would it not be prudent after knocking ranma out, to claim his life? It would be typical deviousness to do so and then claim any number of reasons why Ranma died beyond the scope of witnesses. Especially when going up against a series of opponents that tore them up quite nicely in the process. This is compounded by the fact that Mousse is teamed up with him. Mousse is on a level of deviousness on par with Shampoo, but with a pathetic air to it. When he and Ryoga team up, the moral fiber always drops to the R (Retarded) level. (I think the intelligence does too... Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber.)

Yet despite being the Dweeb Team, they just don't do it.

There's even a point where Ryoga refuses to die because he believes that only he is the right one for Akane. Once again he sees Akane as just a prize to be won, and cares not for her opinion. Which is the arc where Ryoga chases down Akane to give her a hug even though she's absolutely terrified of him again?


This is one of those points where things pass the border into delusion. You said it yourself. 'He Believes he is the right one for akane. This belief is so strong that it becomes everything to him. That's a powerful delusion when it's all that's keeping you alive. Even more powerful if the delusion fuels his sorrow to the point he could unleash a Shi-Shi HohoDan to the point it flattens the area.

As for the ice skating arc, where he wishes to hug akane for her kindness... It is admitted in dialogue that Ryoga doesn't seem to be realizing his own strength, or any of the consiquences of his own strength. He is quite litterally insane with joy.

Ryoga also labored under the delusion that he could use the breaking point to kill Ranma with a single blow. Every attempt in that duel was him trying to explode Ranma into gory little bits. Obviously death is a possibility in such a fight, but once again Ryoga planned out killing Ranma way ahead of time, it was his entire purpose in training with Cologne. He wasn't fighting Ranma to win the duel, he was trying to kill someone in a formal setting.


The reason events like this are completely different scenarios from the Koi Rod, is that in all scenarios like this, Ranma is a worthy combatant. In the Koi Rod scenario, Ranma is pretty much a FREE kill. With Breaking Point, Ryoga has a very hard earned trump card, but he must still manage to strike and defeat Ranma with it in a fighting duel. If Ryoga wanted to use the Breaking Point to get Ranma out of the way as fast as possible, it would have been more efficient to not reveal what he learned in a duel setting, and instead, waited until a promising point for a backstab. However, his chivilrous nature precludes him from performing or following through with his underhanded moments.

In fact, his Chivilrous Nature seems to preclude any time where he has the chance to take Ranma out with a free attack.
When Ranma is rendered weaker then a kitten by the Ultimate Weakness Moxibuster, it is Ryoga who can't stand it. Even though it is an easy win on his part, he can't take advantage of it. With the Koi Rod, he can't make the free kill. He doesn't even bother to try killing Ranma after knocking him out. Every time he's got Ranma at the ultimate disadvantage, he doesn't go for the kill. All the planning and intent in the world means NOTHING if you cannot drop the hammer.

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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Té Rowan » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:40 pm

If you want to see a saint Ryoga, you will see a saint Ryoga.
If you want to see a bastard Ryoga, you will see a bastard Ryoga.
Same with Ranma, the Tendos, the Kunos ...

Characteristics and traits are often amplified to saturation in fanfic.

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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Nekomata-sensei » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:48 pm

Tiger Claw:

Okay, again, since this point seems to be ignored. Being despicable means able to be despised. Some people despise Ryoga, therefore he is despicable.

That out of the way, I'm pretty sure a more reasonable approach would be to debate if Ryoga is _worthy_ of being despised.

Now onto the Straw Man. The Straw Man fallacy _only_ applies to what you might call a 'deceptive analogy', it doesn't apply to _all_ analogies. You can't simply label something a Straw Man in order to refute it, you have to explain what makes it a Straw Man rather than a reasonable analogy. With a Straw Man an erroneous analogy is used in order to deceive people, often one involving an exaggerated, if similar, case. You are treating _all_ analogies as Straw Men, which is a fallacious and weak position to argue from, and one that involves attacking your opponents, rather than their points, since you are only arguing that they committed a fallacy, rather than proving what those fallacies are.

In addition, you have been ignoring any points it seems you can't argue against. You have instead been using extensively the fallacy of Poisoning the Well. You point out one or two of our arguments that you _claim_ are fallacious, usually Straw Men, without proving they aren't accurate analogies, then claim that the rest of our points are worthless because a few of them are supposed Straw Men, which, even if they are, is _still_ Poisoning the Well because the other points could be correct, and even the ones using Straw Men could be correct, just argued improperly. Additionally you seem to ignore the same points when argued properly, in order to argue against a different point in the same, or a previous post, and point at yet more Straw Men (a rather over used and 'easy' fallacy to 'catch' when you are trying to make up fake fallacies), or that that point was previously argued with a Straw Man. Again, Poisoning the Well.

If you want to engage in reasonable debate you have to prove a point is a fallacy, _especially_ with Straw Men, as reasonable analogies are quite easy for someone Poisoning the Well to construe as Straw Men. In addition, you have to argue against _all_ your opponent's _points_, not just the way the points are presented. Proving someone's point a fallacy doesn't negate it, it only aids you in illustrating why it is wrong, you still have to prove the point is wrong, which you consistently avoid doing.

That said, I'm not saying you are necessarily _wrong_ that Ryoga isn't worthy of being despised, simply by matter of your methods of arguing. This, of course, would be Poisoning the Well myself. What I am _asking_ you to do is to engage in reasonable debate from now on, rather than mostly just Poisoning the Well. I think an expert on fallacies should be able to go back and recognize when they have been Poisoning the Well, and re-develop some of their arguments that were, so we can return to normal discourse on the actual topic of the thread with the air cleared.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LawOhki » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:51 pm

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:This would be where we have to agree to disagree. As far as I'm concerned, intent and actions unhook at that moment, with the change of pace. You continue to see the comedic scene that follows as a played straight event, I do not. Attempting to convince each other of that is going to burn our energy out.

Intent and actions unhook? Any sign of regret is evidence for you that the person is wiped clean of any wrong doing.
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