Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

[Sunshine Temple]

Well now that it took 5 pages of posts, and the Rubicon of a Demotivator and Youtube vid have been passed... I suppose argument via screencap was insufficient.

But Law you did strike the actual best way to deal with this. When you find an intractable argument on the internet, disengage. That it took you this long and you stopped with such "flare" does not exactly show well, but at least you stopped.

Edit: [16:29] Law-Ohki: sunny i didn't say i'd disengage from the thread, merely stop responding to admiraltigerclaws posts

Close enough. That still breaks the cycle. Or at least puts you in the clear.

Anyway, Law I'll take your word on you disengaging from this thread. And we'll see if others will be civil or failing that stop posting. If not, it won't be long before there's a clear rule violation and my job will be made easy.

Also when you think you see bullying or personal insults or trolling DO NOT respond in kind. PM or email the staff. That can keep it from growing instead of just becoming complicit.

This isn't serious business, and it's not worth the headache. LadyRelena was right in pointing out that the series is a farce (despicable things are done with the intention, if not the result, of humor), so there's gonna be problems if you read too deeply.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

(I'll make sure to keep myself in check here Sunshine. Like I said, I'm only hostile in retaliation. Nobody's being hostile, so I'm keeping it civil on my end.)

Snip: Merely for Length, nothing more.-

Poisoning the well?

Unfavorable information about a person is presented, therefore, any claims they make will be false.

*Checking posts... Checking... Checking... Checking... (Dammit page four, hurry up and load. Why is this thing randomly slow?) Checking...*


No. Didn't do that to anyone. You might have it mixed up with something else completely.


Whenever I pointed out a straw man, I explained why it was a straw man. I did the same with the Red Herring, Begging the Question, and the Double Standard. (With the double standard explanation taking an entire post.)

When I dismissed other arguments, its because those followup arguments built off the one I attacked.

But I DO see where you call the Poisoning the Well.

Something along the lines of the following:

What I see to respond to...
Argument A is true. Therefore, B, C, and D, which depend on A being true, are presented.

Argument A is false. Therefore, B, C, and D, which depend on A being true, are inherently inaccurate and false.

What I think you're seeing from my response:

I attack argument A. Therefore, B,C, and D are false/dismissed.
(Which would constitute that I am dismissing B, C, and D without consideration.)

So my mistake is not clarifying B, C, or D to clean up.

How to word this so my mindset is more clear.

Ah.

Argument presented. "I have powerful legs. Here's why I have powerful legs: I can kick through steel walls, win the olympic 100 meter dash, and dance dance revolution better than anyone."

As I see it... I note the following.

"You don't have legs... Therefore you don't have POWERFUL legs, and the rest is moot.

My mistake is making the assumption that once I pointed out that A is false, the reasons B, C, and D won't work would fall into place. I recognize this now leaves me with a major hole in my response that others will wish to attack. This is merely laziness on my part in the name of expediency.

From now on I will remember to string in the remainder.

Because A is False: B, C, and D are false because; (You can't 'kick' through steel doors without legs, or win the 100 meter dash because that requires you to run, which requires legs, or correctly play dance dance revolution because that too requires legs.)

I will endevour to avoid leaving sub-points related to the core point hanging.

*I need to get ready for work... Be back later.*

[Zwzn]

Wow I didn't know that this thread was going to have such a long turnout for what I original thought was a simple question. Guess I was wrong. Anyway, this debate seems to be going in a somewhat ugly direction and it's making me feel bad for even starting this thread. Please keep this civil everyone.

That being said; on to Ryoga. I have to agree that in the context of Ranma 1/2 cast - Ryoga does seem to have more morals then most. I could talk about all the nice things he as done in the anime but I'm sure most people would discount that as "not the original canon" so I will stick to the manga. I have already previously pointed Ryouga's selflessness in the Ryugenzawa arc and how the incident with Akane and Akari wasn't much different from what Ranma did with Shampoo in the Reversal Jewel arc. Now, is Ryoga despicable in a REAL sense? Yeah, but so is ever other character in Ranma. As for the comparisons to the other characters, Ryoga actually has more morals then the Kuno siblings, The two fathers, Happosi, Taro, Nabiki, and Shampoo {manga only} (as much as I love her.) I could go more into my reasoning but I feel somewhat exasperated with this subject and I doubt it's that hard to see why I would make this assumption.

The Reversal Jewel arc is very different from anything Ryoga has done/tried to do with Akane and Akari. Ranma was on a vengeance quest because Shampoo was treating him so poorly. Ranma would be very happy if all the girls would just go away. I blame the Reversal Jewel directly for Ranma's odd behavior, and the girls are just delusional.


Even if someone disagrees with the above the situation concerning Ranma, Shampoo, Ukyo, and Akane is very different then Akane, Ryoga, and Akari.

________________________________
I'm not sure Ryoga is deserving hatred and contempt, but he certainly is not a nice guy person or deserving of much respect.

Ryoga tells lies about people to make them look bad, and cover his own faults.

Ryoga blamed Ranma for his curse before he realized Ranma was the girl. This assumes Ryoga was telling the truth about how he fell into the spring.

Ryoga was willing to sneak into Ranma's room, and try to kill Ranma in his sleep.

Ryoga pretends to be Akane's pet, and uses this poisson to cause Ranma trouble in many different ways, and betrays Akane's trust.

Ryoga gets girls who trust him to come over to his house with the intent of "romancing" them by lying to them.

Ryoga causes random property damage because he does not try to control his strength.

Ryoga sees nothing wrong with jumping out of nowhere, and attacking people who have their hands full of other people's stuff, and will try to destroy said property to get a fight.

Ryoga was planning to enslave, and rape Akane with the Koi rod of love. In the Reversal Jewel arc rape is treated as a big deal.

[three headed dog]

I told myself I would not continue but eh, whatever. I do not like people listing fallacies, simply because many people see fallacies where they do not exist or they do not matter. If you go looking for fallacies you will find them, whether they matter or not is debatable. Here are a few I noticed, when I went specifically looking for them:

Moving the goalpost - argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.

Psychologist's fallacy - occurs when an observer presupposes the objectivity of his own perspective when analyzing a behavioral event.

Cherry picking - act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

Suppressed correlative - an argument which tries to redefine a correlative (two mutually exclusive options -in this case opinions) so that one alternative encompasses the other, thus making one alternative impossible.

Intentional fallacy: addresses the assumption that the meaning intended by the author of a literary work is of primary importance.

Package-deal fallacy: consists of assuming that things often grouped together by tradition or culture must always be grouped that way.

Fallacy Fallacy: Argument A for the conclusion C is fallacious. Therefore, C is false.

[Nekomata-sensei]

Gah, I guess what they say about internet debates is true. It just degrades to greater and greater levels of stupidity and off topic. We haven't discussed Ryoga directly for a while. I for one challenge anyone who wishes and has the time and patience, to objectively read this thread, quote various points and arguments, and determine and illustrate where the real fallacies are on both sides, as I don't think we'll get any further until those are clear and no longer in question, and the points can return to being addressed in normal debate.

[toushin]

the koi rod love arc shows ryogas true charecter. using it in the first part is wrong im not going to dwell on that becuase its to obvious. it is here that we find out that ryoga is scared of ranma. when ryoga made ranma jeolous and he stopped holding back, no playing with the opponent just a full on fight with his full strength we can clearly see the fear in ryoga's eyes and he quickly did his best to calm ranma down. yet this doesn't stop ryoga from trying to backstab ranma in the herb arc.

ryoga doesn't show this fear when ranma has more control over himself but in a fight he knows he will be killed he runs for cover.

[LadyRelena]

I can't seem to delete this post.

[Lioconvoy]

Considering how long it's been since this topic concluded, maybe a restart would be in order. Sad to say I have no intention of reading what went on in the past and I'm going to reply to your new post.

I think your comment is fairly accurate, and I'll add that I see Ryoga as the closest think Ranma has to a friend. His own motivations or not, he had Ranma do work together when it counts.

[LadyRelena]

Ok well I guess I can start a new thread and copy my last post.