Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

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Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LadyRelena » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:03 pm

I've read lots of fanfiction portraying Ryoga as being awful and sometimes even worst then Happosi, and if you read mzephyrus opinions on his characters, she practically rips him a new one. http://home.comcast.net/~mzephyrus/characters.html

My impression of Ryoga is that he never intends to 'ever' be perverted with Akane and that most of the P-chan mishaps are just that; mishaps. Yes, he has run into Akane's arms as P-chan but that's usually because he's either really happy to see her or he's trying to get away from Ranma and make him jealous. He never seems to do it so he can feel her cleavage or sleep with her. People seems to make a biggest deal about him sleeping with her at night but I remember lots of times where he has turned around when she's getting dressed or tries to leave her room when she opens the door. Is it wrong that Ryoga doesn't tell Akane about being P-chan? Yes. Does he keep it a secret because he wants to keep sleeping in her bead and take advantage of her? No. My opinion of Ryoga is that he's genuinely a decent guy with horrible social skills and no self esteem, so much to the point where he stoops to being Akane's pet because he thinks that's the only way he could ever be with her.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:29 pm

First, he may not be doing anything specifically perverted to her, and it's certainly not his intention, but he is still betraying her trust. Akane considers Ryoga her best friend, even better than Ranma, and would be heartbroken (to say the least) to discover that he was allowing her to be ignorant of his cursed state. Akane does things around P-chan, and tells P-chan things, that she would never tell anyone else- she opens up to the piglet in a way she can't bring herself to do for any other human, and to find out the boy she respects and trusts above all else was essentially taking advantage of that...

Secondly, Ryoga is endangering Akane's reputation. If it gets out that Akane was taking P-chan to bed with her, and that P-chan was Ryoga, people would be falling over themselves to believe that Akane, an engaged woman, was committing adultery- nobody would believe that Akane was ignorant of Ryoga's curse or that she never suspected him, given she knows all of the other cursed people... including one person who did masquerade as a pet.

Ryoga doesn't mean to hurt her, and it is motivated mainly by his desperation for affection and his terrible social skills, but it is still a terrible thing he's doing. He's not irredeemable or even truly evil, but it is a nasty side of his personality. It's the fact he truly can't help what he does, and does feel guilt over it, that keeps him from being despicable. He's not a villain, but he's certainly not an innocent.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LadyRelena » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:58 pm

SpaceKnight of Chaos wrote:First, he may not be doing anything specifically perverted to her, and it's certainly not his intention, but he is still betraying her trust. Akane considers Ryoga her best friend, even better than Ranma, and would be heartbroken (to say the least) to discover that he was allowing her to be ignorant of his cursed state. Akane does things around P-chan, and tells P-chan things, that she would never tell anyone else- she opens up to the piglet in a way she can't bring herself to do for any other human, and to find out the boy she respects and trusts above all else was essentially taking advantage of that...


To be honest, I don't really know what Ryoga could have done to make his situation with Akane any better. When she first found P-chan he was running away from Ranma to which she grabbed him, clocked Ranma, took him in her room, and proceeded to get undressed and squeeze him into her cleavage while he was desperately trying to get away. If he had come back later on and told her the truth, she would have hated him and called him a pervert forever regardless whether it was her fault or not. Although he should have gotten some guts and told her anyway, he's really the sensitive type and would probably kill himself if Akane ever hated him. Whether he would have told her then or tell her now, Akane would have the same reaction and would never let him live it down.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:25 pm

Despicable? Perhaps that's too strong a word for what I'd call him. But I think he's bad enough. Of course, he, like a lot of characters, are pretty selfish and self-centered. So, it's par for the course, really. I suppose I'd call him pathetic. Despite his principles, he can't uphold them much too often. Despite his guilt over masquerading as Akane's pet pig, he still goes into her arms willingly (which is to say that it's not always Akane taking the initiative). However, even when she initiates intimate contact with him, he sometimes gives up and gives in to his guilty pleasure. And despite having a girl that knows about his curse, and loves him (very obviously), he can't let go of Akane, even though she's engaged to someone else, been engaged to someone else.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LadyRelena » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:56 pm

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Despicable? Perhaps that's too strong a word for what I'd call him. But I think he's bad enough. Of course, he, like a lot of characters, are pretty selfish and self-centered. So, it's par for the course, really. I suppose I'd call him pathetic. Despite his principles, he can't uphold them much too often. Despite his guilt over masquerading as Akane's pet pig, he still goes into her arms willingly (which is to say that it's not always Akane taking the initiative). However, even when she initiates intimate contact with him, he sometimes gives up and gives in to his guilty pleasure. And despite having a girl that knows about his curse, and loves him (very obviously), he can't let go of Akane, even though she's engaged to someone else, been engaged to someone else.



Crescent Pulsar wrote:Despite his principles, he can't uphold them much too often

He's upheld quite a lot of them actually. He's helped Ranma out numerous times when he never had to. Especially during the arc where Ranma became weak.

Crescent Pulsar wrote:Despite his guilt over masquerading as Akane's pet pig, he still goes into her arms willingly (which is to say that it's not always Akane taking the initiative)

It's not about whether he goes into her arms willing, it's the reason behind it. Also when does Akane not taking the initiative in hugging P-chan?

Crescent Pulsar wrote:he sometimes gives up and gives in to his guilty pleasure

This I'll admit to. However it's not like he has many chances to get away even if he didn't like her.

Crescent Pulsar wrote:And despite having a girl that knows about his curse, and loves him (very obviously), he can't let go of Akane

As much as Akari is an adorable girl she has almost no character what so ever and he barely knows anything about her other then she loves him and pigs. It's only reasonable that he would like Akane since he knows her so much more. Also, what would it say about Ryoga if he fell for Akari from the minuet they first meet after being in love with Akane for so long. It's only natural that he would debit with himself about it.

Crescent Pulsar wrote: even though she's engaged to someone else, been engaged to someone else.

None of the rivals take their engagement seriously since Ranma and Akane constantly go out of their way to make everyone think they don't like each other.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Crescent Pulsar » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:30 pm

LadyRelena wrote:He's upheld quite a lot of them actually. He's helped Ranma out numerous times when he never had to. Especially during the arc where Ranma became weak.

And how many of those times did he have ulterior motives? Plus, when Ranma was weakened by the moxibustion, he didn't help Ranma out of the goodness of his heart. First it was because he couldn't stand people who picked on the weak. That's selfish. And then he wanted Ranma to spare him the pain. Again, selfish.

It's not about whether he goes into her arms willing, it's the reason behind it. Also when does Akane [i]not[i] taking the initiative in hugging P-chan?

It's not about hugging. It's about who approaches who. And it does matter whether or not he goes into her arms willingly, since it can be a result of the reason behind the action. For instance, at the end of Ryoga's date with Akane, where Ukyo and Ranma were keeping an eye on them, Ryoga tried to run away. When Akane finds P-chan, she calls him. It's his choice to answer her, and go into her arms, or to continue running. Guess what he decided to go with?

This I'll admit to. However it's not like he has many chances to get away even if he didn't like her.

He has plenty of chances. It's just that, more often than not, he lacks the will to do so. He enjoys the situation too much, even if he regrets what he does later.

As much as Akari is an adorable girl she has almost no character what so ever and he barely knows anything about her other then she loves him and pigs. It's only reasonable that he would like Akane since he knows her so much more. Also, what would it say about Ryoga if he fell for Akari from the minuet they first meet after being in love with Akane for so long. It's only natural that he would debit with himself about it.

She has enough character, especially for someone like Ryoga. Besides which, what looks like "no character" to a reader doesn't mean it translates that way when characters interact. If she had no character, then Ryoga wouldn't be interested in her at all, much like a reader wouldn't.

Also, regardless of whether he knows Akane well enough, I highly doubt it's love. It's more like a combination of infatuation and obsession that he mistakes for love, which makes the information that he has, in regard to Akane, next to useless. The sad part is that he's pretty much blind to that fact, and that it interferes with a relationship, with Akari, that has some real potential.

None of the rivals take their engagement seriously since Ranma and Akane constantly go out of their way to make everyone think they don't like each other.

So that makes it okay? Right... Even the guys at the school, who had fought Akane in the morning, were decent enough to back off when the engagement was made known. So there's no excuse.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby KonokoHasano » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:49 pm

And how many of those times did he have ulterior motives? Plus, when Ranma was weakened by the moxibustion, he didn't help Ranma out of the goodness of his heart. First it was because he couldn't stand people who picked on the weak. That's selfish. And then he wanted Ranma to spare him the pain. Again, selfish.

Even then he was going to outright kill Ranma during the training for the Hiryuu Shoten Ha despite knowing that Ranma was weak. Sure, Ranma goaded him to the point of attacking him by playing on his delusion that he 'defiled' Akane, but the point is that Ryoga was stupid enough to fall for it AND try to kill someone he knew was weak.



Let's also not forget the Koi Rod of Love incident where Ryoga was planning on using the rod on Akane... only failing and catching Ranma. Despite knowing that Ranma was under the spell, he chose to kidnap him, take him out to the woods, actually dig a grave, and initially planned on killing him.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby three headed dog » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:02 pm

Personally I dislike Ryoga more than than any of the other characters but that is largely influenced by several fanfics which made him too good.

Things I dislike about him:
He has rubbed Akane's breast's while in pig form to make Ranma angry.

He has and continues to invaded Akane's privacy, for example attempted to read her diary or while in pig form.

He uses his cursed form to rub up against her and when made young by the mushrooms of aging was going to use that as a chance to bathe with her.

He is a hypocrite, for example, has yelled at Ranma for two timing Akane (which Ranma really does not do very much, at least not by choice, and in the manga didn't do until after Akane had already done so by going on a date with Ryoga) and then attempted to date both Akane and Akari at the same time.

He has attempted to kill Ranma multiple times, even attacked Ranma in his sleep.

He goes after an engaged girl and his p-chan thing if it becomes common knowledge would ruin Akane's reputation, which in Japan is an extremely important thing (by extremely important I mean people die or commit suicide for similar things in Japan).

He is everything negative that Akane ever accuses Ranma of being and he has her trust under false pretenses.

There are more reasons, but I figure that is enough to point out.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby LawOhki » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:10 pm

LadyRelena wrote:I've read lots of fanfiction portraying Ryoga as being awful and sometimes even worst then Happosi, and if you read mzephyrus opinions on his characters, she practically rips him a new one. http://home.comcast.net/~mzephyrus/characters.html

Mzephyr is a man in his mid/late 40's, not a girl.

He's also the "Alpha Akane Fanboy", and you can see that by how everything he basis his opinion of Ryoga on being that he's lying to Akane. Seriously, he's in the "Defenders of the True Fiancee" webring, which apparently requires a 1$ a month fee to be in.

That aside, Ryoga is one of the more despicable characters in the manga. Other's have already given reasons, and there's no reason to repeat.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:27 am

Recall that getting to sleep in Akane's bed is not all its cracked up to be, as Happosai discovered the hard way.
Akane of course, rolls over, punches, kicks, and strangles in her sleep...

RANMA: Is she always like this?
RYOGA: This it pretty tame. Usually its much worse.

That was rich. And a genius way to handle giving Happosai what he desserved.


Anyway. I wouldn't call Ryoga despicable, I wouldn't even call him bad.

The guy starts off with a pretty strong Pity case to begin with. He can't find his way out of a wet paper bag, and when he does, it starts to rain... and now he's a black piglet... who can't find its way out of a wet paper bag.

Akane is the first person, in his eyes, to be nice to him for all his troubles. (Sans the piglet issue.) And he hooks on it and sees the contention between her and Ranma as a new way to focus his anger against his Eternal Rival. He ends up Crushing on her and begins seeing himself as her protector.

I'm pretty certain that in Ryoga's mind, the things he does are solidly justified by a near religious belief that he's doing the right things for her. He most likely sees himself as her trusted secret Confidant. While we may point out that hiding his true self from her as a piglet is betraying her trust, he's already talked himself into the belief that HE is her greatest guardian, and locked it in his head that he would NEVER reveal her secrets.

For using her against Ranma with the P-chan form. I'm certain that since he sees Ranma not only as his nemesis, but a person that is BAD for her and doesn't care about her, he easily justifies using her as a weapon in herself, as an action actually benifiting her.

Bad? Hardly. Right? Hah! Understandable? The guy's cursed to turn into a PIG! On top of his poor sense of direction... I can't begrudge his scenario.

I would expect he is so dedicated to Protecting Akane, that if she told him to 'Go Jump off a Cliff' figuratively in a fit of anger. Ryoga would promptly pitch himself over the nearest one he could find. (Assuming he didn't end up in Pongyiang North Korea or something first.)
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby Zwzn » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:03 am

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:Recall that getting to sleep in Akane's bed is not all its cracked up to be, as Happosai discovered the hard way.
Akane of course, rolls over, punches, kicks, and strangles in her sleep...

RANMA: Is she always like this?
RYOGA: This it pretty tame. Usually its much worse.

That was rich. And a genius way to handle giving Happosai what he desserved.


Anyway. I wouldn't call Ryoga despicable, I wouldn't even call him bad.

The guy starts off with a pretty strong Pity case to begin with. He can't find his way out of a wet paper bag, and when he does, it starts to rain... and now he's a black piglet... who can't find its way out of a wet paper bag.

Akane is the first person, in his eyes, to be nice to him for all his troubles. (Sans the piglet issue.) And he hooks on it and sees the contention between her and Ranma as a new way to focus his anger against his Eternal Rival. He ends up Crushing on her and begins seeing himself as her protector.

I'm pretty certain that in Ryoga's mind, the things he does are solidly justified by a near religious belief that he's doing the right things for her. He most likely sees himself as her trusted secret Confidant. While we may point out that hiding his true self from her as a piglet is betraying her trust, he's already talked himself into the belief that HE is her greatest guardian, and locked it in his head that he would NEVER reveal her secrets.

For using her against Ranma with the P-chan form. I'm certain that since he sees Ranma not only as his nemesis, but a person that is BAD for her and doesn't care about her, he easily justifies using her as a weapon in herself, as an action actually benifiting her.

Bad? Hardly. Right? Hah! Understandable? The guy's cursed to turn into a PIG! On top of his poor sense of direction... I can't begrudge his scenario.

I would expect he is so dedicated to Protecting Akane, that if she told him to 'Go Jump off a Cliff' figuratively in a fit of anger. Ryoga would promptly pitch himself over the nearest one he could find. (Assuming he didn't end up in Pongyiang North Korea or something first.)

What a person believes, and what is are not always the same thing. Ryoga can think he is a great noble and honorable person, but what he thinks doesn't make it so.

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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:42 am

What you believe and what is fact, is not the point here.
What the point is, is that Ryoga has reached a state of mind where the 'facts' as we see them are not the 'facts' as he sees them. He's on a totally different wavelength.

That my friend, is called DELUSION.
de·lu·sion (dĭ-lōō'zhən)
n.

1...
-The act or process of deluding.
-The state of being deluded.

2: A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3: Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.


In this state, one often finds themselves beyond normal rational thought. For Ryoga, his false belief that he is Akane's one and only true protector, that ranma is bad for her, and that he would do anything to protect her are so strong that in his mind, they are the truth to him. None of these may be true, but Ryoga's mind has convinced itself that they ARE.

This goes far beyond mere 'I believe, therefor it is' self persuasion thinking of a rational mind. It's to the point where rational perception has been altered.

You cannot apply the conventional RATIONAL ethics of good and bad to him in this state because Ryoga is in himself not operating under RATIONAL thoughts. In his mind, the Ethics are simple. Bad Things Happening to Akane are BAD. Good things happening to Akane are good. His ethics principles are Akane-centric. It's like over-protective father, secret admirer, and stalker all rolled into one package.

It's twisted, and on the surface it seems very unethical and BAD. But its also justifiable as a recognized mental condition.
In murder cases where you might see an Insanity Plea, chances are the 'insanity' we're looking at might be Delusion. In such cases, the issue comes down to a Psychologist going over it and making the determination if it is truly delusion (thus 'insanity') and whether the person should be punsihed for their bad actions as a rational, SANE person, or if they should be committed for treatment.

It does not make the action the person undertakes while deluded ethical by any stretch of the imagination. But it is a flawed argument to pass judgement based on rational action against a person that isn't rational.

To put it quite bluntly, and just a bit extreme for clarity. Ryoga isn't 'despicable'. He's INSANE.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby KonokoHasano » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:43 am

And that, my friend, is why he is a despicable character. He is trapped within his own delusions and acts upon them because he believes that he is in the right, when he is just a petty character who doesn't believe that he should be responsible for his own actions.
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby toushin » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:19 pm

the p-chan thing is obvious and needs no explination so i will leave that alone but lets take a look at some of the other things ryoga has done

attempted rape.
no one can honestly say that if the koi rod had hit akane ryoga would have done a thing to fix it. what he did was atempted rape plain and simple.

the fight with herb both he and mousse went with ranma for the purpose of getting the bucket which they thought would cure them as well as batraying ranma and killing him.

he lied to ranma about his dog being sick just so he be alone with akane at his house.

he has tried to date both akane and akiri at the same time.

attacked ranma in his sleep

he was willing to just let akane keep her memory lose just to spite ranma.

he tried to injure ranma so that he would lose to kodachi

when shampoo first came he kept splashing ranma with water to keep him as a girl.

he is an ass hole plain and simple
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Re: Is Ryoga really a despicable character?

Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:41 pm

On the 'attempted rape' matter, recall his antics when he fell for Ranma's claims to be an arranged fiancee. While I admit that it's possible he merely tried to embrace "her" and Ranma simply reacted with his normal disgust for intimacy with other guys, he still forcefully tried to hold a woman who was not only clearly uncomfortable with it but vocally protesting his attempts.

Perhaps also worthy of comment is his behavior in the Waterproof Soap arc when he thinks Akane has been trying to make a move on him; he ignores her denials and terror and continues to chase after her, asking what's wrong yet ignoring the blind panic he's inducing in her.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

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