Some thoughts on Jyusenkyou

[Lightspire]

I've had this theory rolling around in my head for a few months now, and have been dying to let it out. There's some things to wrinkle out, as I'll admit, but I think my theory stands pretty well.
Jyusenkyou may curse people, but it's not really a punishment. What it does is reveal ones deepest nature in the best way it can. Why do I say this? Mount Hurai. When Herb and co. have to pass through the troublesome monkies, the monkies are able to 'sense' something about them. One could say their curses, considering what they see from ranma and co, but this isn't true. Herb is seen as a dragon, not a girl. Herb and Lime are seen as a Tiger and Wolf, respectively, and they only have ANCESTORS who were animals, no curses. yet for ranma and co, they see the curses. Ryouga's a pig, Mousse is a duck, and Ranma's a girl.
Before you go off on me, consider these facts: Mousse is quite obsessed with birds well before his curse, and attempts to liken himself to a bird at points druing his fight with Ranma. Later he becomes a duck. Ryouga is rather pig-headed even before he shows up at Jyusenkyou. In fact, if it weren't for this pig-headedness, he never would have ended up there... I believe that even Shampoo is rather catty before her "punishment". She fights Ranmachan in the village (cats can't stand new cats in their territory), then hunts her down after her defeat (like a cat would a mouse... And this is obviously conjecture, but could she have been playing with her prey?) When she is defeated by boy ranma, she snuggles up to him like a cat in heat, always rubbing against him, etc.
Then we have Genma. Do I really have to explain this? Deep down, he's a lazy panda. Sure, he's a martial artist, and not really fat, or anything... but he has shown himself to be lazy and greedy.
Rouge: deep down, she's a spiteful bitch, who constantly attacked Tarou over some magnetic charms.
Tarou: I've given this guy a lot of thought. the best I can reason, is that when he was a child, his personality was unformed, pliable, and open to anything. This would confuse jyusenkyou, and give him a mixed curse, something as unformed as his personality. It could be debated that Happosai is deep down a monster, and HE chose the spring to dip Tarou into...but that's neither here nor there...
happosai's old friend, who was turned into a kid: Really, his personality is a lot like Happosai's, which can be rather childish at times...(such as when he unleashed his great "wrath" upon ranma and the Tendous, for instance... Also, he gets along with children rather well, and likes to befriend them, which was how he ran into his old friend in the first place...)
Herb: This one's a doozy, but I've got it. he didn't leave it up to chance for Jyusenkyou to curse him. He tried to control it's power, bend it to his will, and it backlashed.
Kiima: Again, this was not a situation of chance. She volunteered for the particular spring, and it worked.
Now, as for some particulars about how the curses work. First, I'll bring up Kiima. How was she able to have Akane's form, where it's apparent that ones physical traits stay true through the curse. ie; Shampoos purple hair, Herb's hair and eyes, etc. Since it's a spring of NEARLY drowned Akane, it doesn't work the same as others. It works kind of like a copying machine, like it got a basic template, but nothing else about Akane, since she lived. therefore, all it has to go off of is the physical traits.
Whoo, ::wipes forehead:: almost done, folks. now I address the fact that springs mix, and Ranma CANNOT be cured by the spring of drowned man. We have seen proof that the springs mix, through tarou. Now, here's where it gets complicated again.
Temp. Sring of Drowned Man: Why did it work on Genma and Ranma, if the springs mix? well, because the Temporary spring of drowned man is just that. temporary. Since it has enough juice for just one go, it can "override" a curse. the magic allows this, since it is only temporary.
Now here's the part that gets sticky. Ranma. Even through my own argument, Ranma's interaction with his/her mother as Ranko disproves my theory, since he is constantly splashed with hot water. or does it?
When Ranma is with his mother as Ranko, he wants nothing more than to show her that he's her CHILD, and to prove this, he must be a man. Therefore, the curse reverses itself, forcing Ranma's hidden desires to come to the fore, in a sense. This still works with my theory, since deep down, ranma also wants to be Nodoka's son.
There. I did it. It's done.. Thank GOD! And before you start flaming me, remember this! I. Have. CHICKENS!!!
otherwise, I hope you found this thread interesting... I really have put a good lot of thought into this...

[Colm]

Actually when it comes to Ranma, I think the reason that he gets splashed with hot water around his mother is that he really wants to see her as her son, but Genma's pledge has him frightened as to what she will think of him with the curse.

[mondu_the_fat]

Mousse is quite obsessed with birds well before his curse, and attempts to liken himself to a bird at points druing his fight with Ranma.

Ostrich, not duck.

Ryouga is rather pig-headed even before he shows up at Jyusenkyou. In fact, if it weren't for this pig-headedness, he never would have ended up there...

"Pig" as a negative description is a purely human one. Because pigs wallow in filfth, it has become part of the language to describe equally disgusting humans as pigs.
Also, stubborness is usually not considered synonymous to being a pig. Stubborness is more attributed to a donkey. Plus, "pig" is more associated to sexist behavior, of which Ryoga is lot less than Ranma.

I believe that even Shampoo is rather catty before her "punishment".

Catty is "stealthful" (something shampoo is an opposite of), "subtly cruel" (shampo _might_ be describle as cruel... but not subtle).
I also doubt that the same adjectives are applied in the Japanese language.

Then we have Genma. Do I really have to explain this? Deep down, he's a lazy panda. Sure, he's a martial artist, and not really fat, or anything... but he has shown himself to be lazy and greedy.

That's more like a sloth or a pig than a panda.

Rouge: deep down, she's a spiteful bitch, who constantly attacked Tarou over some magnetic charms.

To Rouge, they weren't magnetic charms. This also does not reflect the power of the Ashura.

Tarou: I've given this guy a lot of thought. the best I can reason, is that when he was a child, his personality was unformed, pliable, and open to anything. This would confuse jyusenkyou, and give him a mixed curse, something as unformed as his personality.

Unformed is not the same as yeti riding ox while holding crane and eel. He should have turned into a giant ameboid monster.

We have seen proof that the springs mix, through tarou.

Which goes against your entire theory.
Also, the specific pools each have a legend (which the guide is quite familiar with). How does the guide know what the curse will be _before_ the victim surfaces?

[Colm]

Also, the specific pools each have a legend (which the guide is quite familiar with). How does the guide know what the curse will be _before_ the victim surfaces?

Well, if all you did all day was sit around all day waiting for someone to come by so you could warn them away, memorizing a map of the springs would be something to pass the time at least.
Should a map exist of course.
If not, you probably would make one as time went on just to keep from going insane from bordom.

[mondu_the_fat]

Well, if all you did all day was sit around all day waiting for someone to come by so you could warn them away, memorizing a map of the springs would be something to pass the time at least.
Should a map exist of course.

1) Such a map does exist.
2) The point here is that the guide knows what each pool does. As such, the pools cannot fit the theoretical framework Lightspire proposed. Unless the guide is omniscient, he cannot know the "deepest selves" of everyone who visits the pools.

[Lightspire]

Ostrich, not duck.
Wha-? I said birds, as in general... He goes through several birds during the fight. Plus, in accordance with my theory, Jyusenkyo may not have ostrich. Duck may have been the only straight-up bird pool it had...
That's more like a sloth or a pig than a panda.
have you SEEN pandas? They are so lazy, they barely reproduce...(one of the reasons they are endangered, they just don't keep up withthe hunters at all...) All they do when awake, WHEN awake, is eat, and move over towards more food to eat.
As for shampoo: According to theWebster's college dictionary, catty is: resembling or held to resemble a cat; esp : slyly spiteful
Shampoo HAS been seen to be sly, one example being when she defeated Akane in arm wrestling just before the super soba incident.
For Rouge, let's see... a three headed fire-breathing hose-beast... yeah, I've NEVER heard a woman been called THAT before... (not to mention being true, occasionally, as a metaphore that is.) Regardless of what she thought they were, she was pretty extreme.
the response for Tarou: again, does Jyusenkyou HAVE a spring of drowned Giant Amoeba? Because if it did, then I'm certain it's what tarou would have gotten. This is why I say that Jyusenkyou works it's magic in the best way that it can. it depends upon the people and things drowned within it to give curses.
Which goes against your entire theory.
Could you explain just how that actually goes against my entire theory? I already showed through the example of Kiima that one can purposely curse themselves. Notice I never said that Ranma would never be able to use THE spring of drowned man... but with the evidence of Tarou, he probably wouldn't want to...
And as for the guide, you said so, yourself, he has a map, and knows the springs, therefore, he can state what they turn into when they fall. This does not in any way show that he has the power to see what people are, and is therefore irrevelant towards my theory.

[MaximumZorch]

Given a 'real world' approach to understand just about anything in Ranma, or at least to make sense of it, is close to spinning your wheels.
Don't get me wrong, I spend waaaay too much time thinking about the valley of sorrow, and Ranma 1/2 in particular, to criticize that. However, my approach to my attempts to understand the Takahashi universe is more literary than literal.
From this perspective, it is important to note a couple behaviours:
1) Time never changes, although people may. New techniques(chestnut fist), new relations(people), and development of history(Mrs. Tendo's grave), all bring to light new elements of the character dynamic. However, all the major time keeping elements never really advance, like high school grade. There are many times where a holiday occurs, or the seasons change, events take place, or what have you, but it doesn't impact the characters in their lives.
This is most notable in the anime, where the whole of the group goes on vacation, deals with snow(rather rare in Toukyou), or just the celebration of a holiday. In the anime, they make references (well, in-jokes) to "next week" as "next episode", even as early as the first season. Even so, every time you see the characters in school, they reside in the same rooms and attend the same class.
Also, there seem to be only three major time-frames, the Present, the near past, the far past. There would be four only if you consider the Magic Mirror episode. The "Present" starts with Ranma arriving at the Tendo dojo, and ends with the battle with Saffron. The "Near Past" includes pretty much anything that Ranma can remember, the first meeting with Ukyou, Ryouga, Shampoo, the Cat-Fist, Jusenkyou, Dragon Whisker Soup, but before he arrives at the Tendo's. The "Far Past" is before this, typically before Happosai got sealed, or before Genma
2) With the exception of some of the technology(video games specifically), almost everything else is a prop or tool. I mean that specifically that in a literary, or even visual sense, the magic, technology, curses, ghosts, watermellons, what-have-you, are all vehicles to tell the story.
This is most notably present in the manga, where Ranma, Nabiki, Genma and even Soun have used the wireless mic, but in each case tends to show something a little different. In a real way, to amplify soem characteristic of their speech.
Or for that matter, the ever-present wooden mallet. Not just Akane's weapon of choice in the manga, everyone uses it to depict a rather 'sanitized' beat down over a few panels.
So, in my understanding of Jusenkyou, at least in a literary scheme, it is a tool for the writer, without the need of self consistancy, but with a definite humorous streak.
Outside of that, the victims of jusenkyou always have a fallacy of understanding.
Ranma: boy vs girl, treated poorly vs kindly
Ryouga: man vs pig, strong vs weak
Shampoo: woman vs cat, (from Ranma) amourous vs terrified
Genma: man vs panda, capable vs incapable, (like answering the phone or just plain communicating)
Mousse: man vs duck, subservient vs free
Herb: guy vs girl, oppressor vs oppressed (lime and mint: "Hmmm boobies")
Tarou: Beauty vs Beast, appearance vs nature
The similarities, when taken in a literary sense, are very close. Yet in a literal sense jusenkyou has no rhyme or reason in an atomic fashion(pulled out of context). This is an issue of the suspension of disbelief, "It works that way because it does, and when looked at this way it's funny!"
As far as the whole "the curses mix" issue, there are several times that the "nannichuan" seem to be the "fix" for the curse: the japanese nannichuan and instant nannichuan, both of which only show how conniving and desperate the cursed really are. Let's not forget the "last cask of Nannichuan" from the jusenkyou guide for Ranma's wedding present. That one doesn't make sense, as the guide knows what would happen should Ranma get splashed with it(spring of drowned hermaphrodite would be my best guess), unless it's meant for his wife.
Fact of the matter is that jusenkyou is a place of metamorphosis. It is used as punishment by the amazons, ascension by the pheonix, procreation by the musk, and entertainment by the guide.
Even so, there is the Jusenkyou Oversight Commitee(at least in the anime) to prevent the abuse of the cursed forms. It was of their opinion that both Ranma and Genma were "stubborn" for not responding to the "training" of repeated dunking in hot and cold water to "learn" that it wasn't a "curse" and then it wouldn't affect them. I still laugh at that one. Of course Ranma wouldn't get it. Then it would no longer be two halves of which Ranma is but one.
Attributing a conciousness, reason, effects or just trying to quantify the Pools of Sorrow makes for a Keanu Reeves moment "Woe, I know Kung Fu".
It should at most be a vehicle for the further exploration of the Takahashi Universe. A great number of series have done this(Comes the Cold Dragon, Waters Under Earth, Ranmazoku even the FukuFics like Sailor Ranko).
So my response to this is to write a couple of stories that illustrate your points, within the Ranma 1/2 storyline, that does not break the episodic/static nature of the world. It's not as easy to do as say.

[Togashi Gaijin]

As far as the whole "the curses mix" issue, there are several times that the "nannichuan" seem to be the "fix" for the curse: the japanese nannichuan and instant nannichuan, both of which only show how conniving and desperate the cursed really are. Let's not forget the "last cask of Nannichuan" from the jusenkyou guide for Ranma's wedding present. That one doesn't make sense, as the guide knows what would happen should Ranma get splashed with it(spring of drowned hermaphrodite would be my best guess), unless it's meant for his wife.

Actually it *is* meant for Ranma. Canon manga fact: Naniichuan water *will* cure a Nyaniichuan curse. Canon manga source: Rumiko Takahashi (several print interviews)
-Togashi Gaijin-

[MaximumZorch]

Thanks for that tip, as I haven't ready any of those.
Although with the number of people that are "manga only" or "anime only" for cannon character and occurance references, it wouldn't suprise me if there is a hot debate as to whether interviews (print or otherwise), should be considered instrumental in considering the accuracy of fanfic behaviors of some really tertiary characters like the old lady who washes her sidewalk, or Diasuke and Hiroshi.
Again, thanks for the heads up on that.

[Togashi Gaijin]

... it wouldn't suprise me if there is a hot debate as to whether interviews (print or otherwise), should be considered instrumental in considering the accuracy of fanfic behaviors ...

Well, it would certainly surprise *me*. Canon behavior is generally definied as anything coming from the creator of the series - whether it "makes sense" or not. If the creator adds supplimental information about a series in the course of an interview, this is just as "authentic canon" as if he or she had included it in the the actual storyline.
For instance, *IF* Takahashi had claimed in a post-publication interview that the ladle-lady was supposed to be an undercover JSDF agent but she had simply never gotten around to using that in any of the story arcs - I would consider that canon fact. She is, after all, the original author.
Re the various Jusenkyou curses, Takahashi's interview in the Ranma Memorial art book gives a good insight as to what & why they came about. They are Plot Device - nothing more - and she was making up new ones as she went in order to fit the various new characters. Note that her *original* idea for Ranma's gender-swapping was to have it occur everytime he or she got hit in a fight.
*Bam* male *THWAP* female *thud* male *crunch* female ....
Wouldn't have THAT been a load of fun?
-Togashi Gaijin*

[Lightspire]

Wow... I even own the art book, but I've been away from it for a good while. I'll have to read the interview in it more carefully next time. Thank you for hte clarification, Togashi!
Unfortunately, that blows one part of the theory out the window.
By the by, I should mention that I only came up with this theory to defend stories such as fuku-fics... I realize that Takahashi never intended for the manga to be inspected as thoroughly as it is in threads such as this.
Nonetheless, I'd have to argue with her, (in the hypothetical situation of me actual having a conversation about Ranma's curse, etc) over the idea of nan curing nyan, since it would be inconsistent with the information priorly given. That said, she IS the author, and can do as she durn well pleases.
As for the rest of my theory... Well, although Takahashi might disagree with me, in my own deluded mind it works and I stand by it. (Until completely proven otherwise...)

[Togashi Gaijin]

How in the world would it be inconsistant? The FIRST rule of creating theories is to fit the theory to the facts, not the other way around.
Since Takahashi *has* stated that the nanniichuan would cure the nyanniichuan, the following set of "theories" could easily account for this canon behavior
Canon fact #1: A boy with a girl curse will be cured if a boy curse is applied. (Ranma)
Logical extrapolation #1A: A girl with a boy curse will be cured if a girl curse is applied.
Logical extrapolation #1B: Any "N" with a "X" curse will be cured if an "N" curse is applied.
Theory #1: Jusenkyou curses can be cured by applying a curse which matches the form equal to what the victim is "supposed" to be. ie a dog with a man curse would be cured if a dog curse was applied, etc.
Canon fact #2: Curse will mix under certain circumstances. (Taro)
Logical extrapolation #2: A new curse applied to a current Jusenkyou victim will either cure or combine with the current curse.
Theory #2: Curses mix if they don't match the form of what the victim is supposed to be. A curing curse overrides any mixed curse. i.e. A boy with a girl curse, if given a cat curse, will become a nekomusume (cat-girl). A boy with a mixed cat-girl curse will be cured if a boy curse is applied.
Canon fact #3: Gender is not the sole determining factor on human form curses (Rakkyousai).
Logical Extrapolation #3: Human form curses can consist of either gender-only, age-group-only, or both gender and age group.
Theory #3: A curing curse must match *all* requirements of the current victim's "original form" to be effective as a cure. i.e. a curse which is specifically Spring of Drowned *Boy* will NOT cure a man with a girl curse.
I'm stopping here because most of this territory has been covered in the past, but note that this set of theories accounts for *both* the "curing" as well as the "mixing" curses - without violating canon facts (something which yours does not do).
-Togashi Gaijin -

[Lightspire]

Ah... That actually explains a lot! @o@ I suppose that the polar opposites (so to speak..) WOULD cancel each other out... Very well, I accept this reasoning! (but it doesn't mean I have to like it...) I therefore declare that part of the theory null and void! ::Offical Void stamp:: Done and DONE!
I'm actually surprised I didn't come up with that... I thought I'd planned for everything... darn...

[antimatterenergy]

There are other possibilities as well.
It is possible that the curses mix when applied to a cursed form and when applied to the normal form the new curse takes over. (we don't know what form taro was in when he added to his curse because we got the information from the guide secondhand.)
It is possible that the curses mix if a certain percentage isn't covered. Since the guide sent a small barrel and said that it is enough for one person dipping ones hand into it may not be enough or cause the curses to mix (have to pour it over themselves).

[Lightspire]

Y'know what? I've thought a lot about this and I don't think it's canon unless it's IN the material, because comics are a form of art, which is subject to interpretation. As I interpret the art as it has been presented to me, the curse cannot be cured by another curse. Blanketed, MAYBE... but not cured. That's as far as I'll go on this.
If it were TRULY as simple as a dip in the spring of drowned man, then the guide would have taken Genma and Ranma to the spring of drowned man. To have a "cure" like that would destroy the entire point of Jyusenkyo... "Oh, you're a guy that's been cursed? Well, who cares about the tragic story, the cures right over there, my friend! Now just be more careful next time!"
...
I don't think so.
The creators of Xena and Gabrielle could yell from the rooftops all day long that they weren't 'lesbians'. The intrepretation of the show from many, many fans (me included...) and even people who aren't their fans, is that they are gay. Is this canon? I'd say that they were totally in love with each other, which would AT LEAST make them bi in canon. But anyway, it's a matter of interpretation.
Back to the subject at hand, I realize that I should look at this from a Japanese point of view. I've been to Japan. I've lived with families in Japan. I plan on going back. And I have to say, one thing that they excell at is repression. It's one of the reasons manga is so popular. That's another reason why I proposed this idea. Because they repress a lot, and show a PUBLIC face. Anything else would be unheard of, not to mention undignified. (I'm also majoring in East Asian Studies, btw...)
As a matter of fact, according to CANON Sailor Moon, it is impossible for Ranma to be a sailor senshi. No if's, ands or doubts about it. Unless, of course, you use my theory! You see, Naoko Takahashi has stated that ONLY girls can become senshi. (YES, mask has the gold thingamijigger, but he's STILL not a sailor!) She was quite irked when the anime came out, making the starlights boys who turned into girls... Instead of crossdressers, as she had made it in the manga... Yet, here we are, at FUKUFICS, doing that very thing, while arguing over canon. Therefore, I find myself in a catch22. According to these arguments, I cannot be canon to Ranma by using this theory and putting him in a fuku. Yet without it, I cannot put Ranma into a senshi fuku and remain canon to Sailor Moon...

So, in conclusion, I re-instate my full theory and am remiting my previous null and void stamp! (which, by the way, was ONLY on a part of the theory...