Akane: The Good, the Bad & the Ugly

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Postby Lightspire » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:37 pm

claymade wrote:But more fundamentally, P.H. Wise's point is exactly right. You just can't reduce human beings to math. Everyone is going to have their own take on any given character given their perception of their motivations, their perspective on what is or isn't justified in a given situation, and the degree of sympathy/empathy they feel with the character. (And thus, for everyone, the "weights" we assign to the various actions will fluctuate wildly.)
In fact, in cases like these, in discussions like these, it's almost more accurate to talk about our relationship with the character rather than our analysis of the character. That's the level at which they interface with us.

Actually, we reduce human beings to math a lot. How much good versus how much bad, essentially. When we decide whether or not someone is our friend, or we think about whether we want them to be our friend, we "tally" up the good things we've seen, the bad things, etc. and we make our choice. Or at least I do. And it also is all relative to me and how I perceive things, which is why I want to streamline this list and make it Ranma-centric to determine how the relationship between Akane and Ranma could be judged. This list notes the good, bad and ugliness of Akane within the realm of the manga Ranma 1/2 as we see it. So, if we wish to judge her, which is what one might do from this list (especially since it was created so people would have a more detailed view of her actions and make a better informed judgement of her character) we might want to add everything up when all is said and done.
With that said, you can interpret the tally however you wish, or you can ignore the tally. I merely felt it would be a nice supplement to the main list itself, which is admittedly more important to pay attention to.
As I basically said earlier, some or many may find the point of counting the tally pointless. You don't like my interpretation of the tally, and that's fine. I'm certain my interpretation of the data may skew or change, etc. Nonetheless, that's the total tally. Take it as you please.
There once was a boy who turned into a girl,
his fiancee's cooking always made him hurl.
Instead of eating one day, he tried to throw it away, and now he has a bird's eye view of the world.
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Postby P.H. Wise » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:49 pm

Lightspire wrote:Actually, we reduce human beings to math a lot. How much good versus how much bad, essentially.

If math is how you're judging human beings, the bad will always outnumber the good. There is no one who succeeds in holding themselves to the standards that each of us holds each other to. People screw up. Not just every now and then, but often. Some screw up more visibly than others, but by the math, we're all in the negative.
But people are more than numbers, and understanding involves more than just a dry calculation of which actions, seen from the outside, the observer approves of, which they disapprove of, and which they see as inexcusable. People have reasons for what they do. Things are more complicated than a simple tally, and even in cases where you find you can't forgive the person for what they've done, you can still understand (if you are willing to make the effort) why they did it.
Hige sceal þe heardra || heorte þe cenre,
mod sceal þe mare || þe ure mægen lytlað.
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Postby FOG3 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:02 pm

claymade wrote:Really? I don't see how that incident can possibly work as anything but. I can buy someone killing someone else over a man. It's happened before. But if you really think she'd have murdered them over a minor slight to her cooking then you're taking this so far into the Twilight Zone it boggles the imagination.
Not to mention that he, you know, constantly does insult it from that point on in the series, and she never actually tries to knife him. (This also falls under what I said in my previous post about gauging the seriousness--or lack thereof--of death threats.)
So says Mr. Shampoo-really-means-it, no-really. Do we need to bring up the laundry list of just who she's done the "Kiss of Death" to and how not only are they all still alive, but most of the time she doesn't even seriously attempt to use lethal force. Your standard appears to be not existant, sir. I don't include intentional bias error aka double standards as a standard, I'm afraid.
Well she didn't really blows everything you have on the others out of the water, and reduces it to kindling. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander, friend. You dug the grave by bring up inferior attempts by the others, so sleep in it.
claymade wrote:Theoretical? He did glomp her twice against her will before she even brought out the bow.
And? A bow isn't setup to fend off anyone, unlike say a shinai, or quarterstaff. It can only be used in a lethal mode of operation. Not to mention a notched arrow is a threat, notched and drawn is well beyond a mere threat. It stands.
claymade wrote:Simple. Boil off the extreme, unrealistic manifestations of violence, have her core character traits manifest themselves through more plausible means, and you get a girl with a large amount of temper, stubbornness and pride, who because of her experiences is predisposed to distrust boys, who is insecure about her abilities as a woman and tries continuously to prove them (even when that might not be wise), who is skilled in the martial arts and wants Ranma to take her seriously.
Victim mentality, Mary Sue analogue logic is what you're flashing. Most would sum that up in one word, Bitch. Hence what she is potrayed as in fanon.
claymade wrote:That is Akane. And none of that is dependent on comedic ultra-violence.
Ultraviolence? <.< >.>
Buckets of blood? No.
Let's see limbs flying off? No.
Exploding heads? No.
Death? Disneyfied.
Monsieur Claymade, I'm afraid your sentimentality is to vulnerable to understand what that term means.
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Postby claymade » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:36 pm

FOG3 wrote:So says Mr. Shampoo-really-means-it, no-really. Do we need to bring up the laundry list of just who she's done the "Kiss of Death" to and how not only are they all still alive, but most of the time she doesn't even seriously attempt to use lethal force. Your standard appears to be not existant, sir. I don't include intentional bias error aka double standards as a standard, I'm afraid.
Well she didn't really blows everything you have on the others out of the water, and reduces it to kindling. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander, friend. You dug the grave by bring up inferior attempts by the others, so sleep in it.

Huh? How on earth is it a double standard?
Here, let's use a less inflamatory example. In the Golden Pair story arc, Ranma makes multiple death threats against Mikado--and yet I don't cosider him to have actually meant a word of it. Why? Because A) he arguably gets the chance but doesn't take it, and B) it just doesn't fit well with the rest of his character for him to be really serious. If Ranma could really be pushed to murder that easily, then what about Herb? He tries to take away Ranma's masculinity permanently, and yet Ranma saves him in the end.
Same with Akane--if she's enough of a psychopath that that kind of minor, indirect insult was really enough to send her into a homicidal rage, then why isn't she going after Ranma with lethal instruments all the time, as he hits her with identical, or far worse insults? Why doesn't she kill him when she has the battle dogi? It just doesn't fit as a seriously intended death threat--even in the context of that plot-verse--any more than Ranma's own death threats do.
Compare that to Shampoo. We see her swing her bonbori at Nabiki's head from behind, only to have Ranma snatch her away at the last second. That's not a "threat" to begin with! We see her plotting to kill Akane in the confusion of the Taro battle. And we're never (that I recall) given any counter-evidence that shows any disinclination to do so if she thinks she could get away with it (e.g. ehe has someone/something else to blame it on so that Ranma wouldn't realize who had done it).
If Shampoo ever did have a scene where she did pass on an opportunity like that, then that would be evidence for a different interpretation, or more likely for character growth--much like her counterpart Mousse, who starts out as being pretty clearly out to kill Ranma, but seems to soften a bit as time goes by. It's just that I can't think of any scene like that for her, offhand.
(Just to clarify: even the way she is, I don't dislike Shampoo particularly. I'm fully willing to give her a lot of slapstick leeway for most of the stuff she pulls, and to her credit, lethal force isn't always her first resort, even if she's willing to resort to it in the end. It's just when people scale her--or anyone else--down for a more serious fic, but don't scale Akane down as well that I get annoyed. It's the loss of proportionality between them that I mind.)
FOG3 wrote:And? A bow isn't setup to fend off anyone, unlike say a shinai, or quarterstaff. It can only be used in a lethal mode of operation. Not to mention a notched arrow is a threat, notched and drawn is well beyond a mere threat. It stands.

Yes, a shinai... or a mallet, or a bat, or a weight, or a frying pan. All of which, from the picture, she apparently attempted to use to fend him off and was disarmed of before the scene we see.
Thus it provides no evidence whatsoever for the contention that if "someone had her training a 1911 on him with safety off, finger on trigger most of the fic on stupid stuff he might theoretically do, it'd be in character." Obviously, the situation here is not theoretical, nor is there any indication that it was her first resort of all the things she'd tried.
Perhaps this sums my intent up best: Shampoo and company are willing to use attacks that would likely kill (if it weren't a slapstick situation, of course) as a last resort to get the man they're after. Akane, on the other hand, is willing to use attacks that would likely kill (also if it weren't a slapstick situation) as a last resort against being sexually assaulted. Both are in a fairly slapstick situation, so neither are monsters. And yet, even in a slapstick situation, there is a difference of proportion between them.
FOG3 wrote:Victim mentality, Mary Sue analogue logic is what you're flashing. Most would sum that up in one word, Bitch. Hence what she is potrayed as in fanon.

I have, as requested, given some of the core character traits that recognizeably describe Akane. Whether she is a "Mary Sue" or not depends on how the author of a given fic frames her flawed traits with respect to the conflict of the story. If the reasons for her flaws are presented as sufficient justification for her to wallow in them, then yes, she probably would be a Mary Sue. That approach is not required by anything I have stated.
If, instead, those flaws are presented as, in fact, flawed aspects of her character, held in tension with her noble characteristics, then the charge is turned completely on its head. To have flaws is necessary in a good character. The absence of flaws will result in a Mary Sue just as surely as their excusal will.
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Postby SpaceKnight of Chaos » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:34 pm

I'd like to point one thing out to the original author; two points I think you missed from chapter 16. Firstly, when Akane and Ranma reach the Zekkyo maze bath section, Akane unhesitantly drags Ranma through the women's baths, despite the fact that he's being pummelled mercilessly by the barrage of thrown objects, and her only concession to this fact is to wrap a towel around Ranma's eyes, meaning he can't even see them to try and deflect them. I'd rate this at least a Bad, possibly even an Ugly. Secondly, when she and Shampoo try to go opposite ways, they slam Ranma crotch-first into a pole and then nearly rip him in two- an Ugly for both girls.
Water, water, everywhere, and all was cursed and black!
Drowned ones cast bad spell and out come pig, girl, duck, panda!
Swirl, swirl, slithery pond, and join with magic spring!
Swirl, swirl, dirty pond, and rid the cursed sting!
Here my prayer, I beg you please!
Now turn these curses BACK!

http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-boys-names.shtml
http://www.issendai.com/rpgs/japanese-girls-names.shtml
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