How far behind Ranma is Ryoga?

[FriendlyEL]

As a big discussion was started on this in the General Questions Mk2 forum, I've become more curious on just exactly how Ryoga really compares to Ranma in martial arts.

To me, as much as I hate to say it, I do think he still has quite a bit of a ways to go before being really equal with Ranma. Not as much so as with Mousse, the fiancees, Kuno, or other charachters Ranma has frequently either at times literally took out with one hit or able to deal with without hurting them, but it still seems that during just about any unimportant "skirmish" fight the two have Ranma is able to take him out without all that much effort.

While it's true that he has occasionally been able to fight equal with Ranma and at times even defeat Ranma, this is usually due to a one time "fifteen minutes of fame" (Shi Shi Hokodan arc is when I think Ryoga's biggest victory was without using artificial powerups like the mark of the gods). The Breaking Point is another people commonly use to point out as a moment like that, but even then didn't Ranma dodge just about all his attacks anyways?

Any opinions from people on exactly what it would take for Ryoga to become even with or even surpass Ranma?

[mondu_the_fat]

He would need to clear his head or learn to tune out. He gets too angry too fast and is too easily distracted.

[Necavit]

Thought we came to an agreement that hes got to be close, or he wouldnt fill the role of rival.

In the breaking point fight, your right he barely hit him. But the hits he gets in hurt alot and his stamina allows him to wear Ranma done.

Ranma says himself that if he missed on the last round of punches hed be done.

I dont see an ounce of proof that Ranma is far above Ryoga. But I am curious as to why many fans have Ranma eaisly defeat Ryoga, why do you think this? Please show some manga examples, try not to use humour examples of Ryoga loseing because I can show just as many humour examples of Ryoga cleaning Ranma's clock.

To summarize.

Ryoga and Ranma are close.

But Ranma is smarter and can play Ryoga like a harp. When Ryoga gets one of these powerups he becomes the clear winner. Thats what makes the fight interesting. Ranma is the under dog but he uses strategy and overcomes the odds. We see this in Shishihokodan and in the breaking point.

[claymade]

...but it still seems that during just about any unimportant "skirmish" fight the two have Ranma is able to take him out without all that much effort.

As was mentioned in the other thread, using an "unimportant 'skirmish' fight" as your baseline is a rather dicey proposition. Like Necavit says, if you count those, there are other instances where Ryouga has pretty much wiped the floor unequivocally with Ranma too.

In an unimportant skirmish, the person who the plot says has to win will--as you say--win very quickly. That's because the skirmish is unimportant. Takahashi can't exactly have a three-issue-long fight for every single one of those, y'know...

While it's true that he has occasionally been able to fight equal with Ranma and at times even defeat Ranma, this is usually due to a one time "fifteen minutes of fame" (Shi Shi Hokodan arc is when I think Ryoga's biggest victory was without using artificial powerups like the mark of the gods).

With the Shi Shi Hokodan, the "fifteen minutes of fame" bit isn't the "fight equal with Ranma" final Shi Shi Hokodan fight. That's the back-to-normal bit, after Ranma's learned the Moko Takabisha to even the playing field. The "fifteen minutes of fame" bit is all the fights before that happens--where Ryouga is obliterating Ranma.

The Breaking Point is another people commonly use to point out as a moment like that, but even then didn't Ranma dodge just about all his attacks anyways?

The Bakusai Tenketsu scenario was a very different situation from the Shi Shi Hokodan. The latter was an example of Ryouga taking a big jump above Ranma, destabilizing the status quo, before Ranma returned it by learning the Moko Takabisha. The former was an example of Ryouga returning things to the status quo by learning a technique, negating Ranma's earlier big jump.

And, while Ranma still was a lot faster than Ryouga at that time, that was still at a time when their speed differential was extremely great due to Ranma's training with Cologne. While the one week of training with Cologne that Ryouga got focused on his durability, Ryouga still goes on to keep improving his own speed as part of his duels with Ranma--to the point where, at the end of the Koi rod arc, he's able to hold his own against Ranma, even despite the other having a one-hit-victory weapon.

(And even during the Bakusai Tenketsu fight--when their speed differential was still at its hugest gap in the whole series--he still did manage to land a head-butt and a punch.)

[Dumbledork]

I dont see an ounce of proof that Ranma is far above Ryoga. But I am curious as to why many fans have Ranma eaisly defeat Ryoga, why do you think this? Please show some manga examples, try not to use humour examples of Ryoga loseing because I can show just as many humour examples of Ryoga cleaning Ranma's clock

There's an easy answer to that one. We are thinking logically (and as Ranma is a comedy, logic doesn't really play a big part). Consider the constant training Ranma went through from the day they left home until the arrival at the Tendo's. I can't imagine Genma ever letting Ranma slack off and I wouldn't be surprised if he had Ranma train for at least 10 hours a day during the 12 years they were gone. With all his insane training methods and the different training grounds (and probably dojos and temples, although none are mentioned in the manga) they visited there's no chance in Hell that Ryoga should be anywhere near Ranma's level. All we see about Ryoga is him wandereing around, trying to find his way home. I simply can't believe that he's been training as much as Ranma, at least until they met at school. And even afterwards I don't believe so. Ranma has had a brilliant martial arts master as a sensei for 12 years (even if Genma lacks sommon sense) and Ryoga hasn't. As far as we see in the anime he meets strange people (like the guy that gave him the shishi hokodan scroll, or the guy who tattoed him) and that's it.

[Necavit]

Ok...

But ya need proof, otherwise this nothing but a theory with no standing.

And your logic is faulty when you state. I cant beleive Ryoga trained as much as Ranma. Why not? Ryoga dosnt have a home, all he does is wander. Hes constantly training in the mountains, plenty of proof of that in the manga. He wanders into the mark of the gods martial artist. Its not beyond beleif that he ran into other martial artists. Ranma on the other hand goes to school and has a life, Ryoga cant make a life cause he wanders all the time, so he trains.

All the evidence points to Ryoga and Ranma being close. All of the fights, were close fights, we listed them all. Why do Ranma fans persist in beleiveing that Ranma's always holding back?

Claymade and I provided proof of our claims, youve given us your opinion with no actual evidence.

[Dumbledork]

I know it's a theory, my theory, and I don't expect people to agree with me. But that's how I see it. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

[pspinler]

I'm not sure that the shi shi hokodan arc is a good measure of Ryoga v Ranma's skills. It seemed like Ranma was fighting the technique as much as he was fighting Ryoga.

If Ranma had simply dodged the technique, blinded Ryoga in any of a number of ways (dust clouds), employed the hiryu shoren ha, etc, that he could have fought Ryoga more evenly. Instead he just keeps coming back for more, employing the same failing strategies.

For example, here http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 20-011.gif Ranma had just been hit by surprise by Ryoga's first shi shi hokodan. Ranma's response was "Let's see if you can keep up that kind of power. One more time!"

Then, his response after the fight wasn't to try to come up with a counter strategy, instead he tries to learn the technique himself worrying that he'll be defeated if he doesn't. http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 20-023.gif and http://ranmahentai.ranma.ws/RanmaManga/ ... 20-024.gif

Contrast that to Ranma's strategy in the breaking point fight, where he improvised a strategy specifically to block Ryoga's breaking point "Breaking point block!", Ranma's fight with Herb, improvising the reverse hiryu shoren ha, Ranma's fight with Cologne at the beach, employing the cat fist, Ranma's fight with Ryu Kumon, learning the constrasting Umisenken school, etc.

I note that Ranma does sometimes have a pattern of concentrating on a technique to the exclusion of a fight. For example, learning the Picolet Chardin's eating technique or the tea ceremony technique. So, Ranma concentrating on the technique rather than the fight is not out of character to him.

Comments? Does this seem accurate?

-- Pat

[Jupiah]

If Ranma had simply dodged the technique

You're assuming that Ranma could dodge the technique. The Shishi Houkoudan is rather large and fast-moving, and Ryoga seems to have enough ki to throw out a near limitless number of them. It would be quite hard to dodge every one of them.

The perfect version, on the other hand, would be fairly easy to avoid. Ranma could have simply stayed outside of it's range. However, that leaves them at a stalemate. Ranma couldn't attack from a distance, because he didn't have enough confidence to use the Mouko Takabisha, and Ryoga could have just blocked it with the normal Shishi Houkoudan anyway.

It's also almost impossible to strike the user before the blast drops. The perfect Shishi Houkoudan seems to fall very quickly, and it also seems to increase the weight of anyone caught within the blast zone. Ranma tried to charge Ryoga and attack him before the ki blast hit twice, and both times failed to reach him in time.

So Ranma couldn't hit Ryoga from a distance, and couldn't get close enough to hit him. He couldn't run away to a more advantageous battleground or to find a ranged weapon without conceding the match either. He didn't any real options to win that fight. He only managed to do so by improvising a brilliant technique out of nowhere, like he's done to win many other of his duels. If Ryoga had kept his distance and kept throwing ki blasts, and hadn't allowed Ranma to anger him so that he could get close enough to employ a Perfect Shishi Houkoudan boosted punch-to-the-face, he would have won.

blinded Ryoga in any of a number of ways (dust clouds)

How on earth would a dust cloud have helped Ranma? Ranma isn't trained to fight blind. He would have been at a disadvantage if he tried, because Ryoga is the one with two area attacks. Ryoga could have easily used the Bakusai Tenketsu to throw out a swarm of rock shards if Ranma used a dust cloud, and, being blinded, Ranma wouldn't have been able to defeat the technique by catching them all with the Amaguriken. Not to mention the whole, you know, Perfect Shishi Houkoudan. Ryoga could have simply kept throwing them around and Ranma still wouldn't be able to get close to him, with or without a dust cloud blinding them.

employed the Hiryuu Shouten Ha

Just how exactly would Ranma have used the Hiryuu Shouten Ha during that fight? Ranma has to lead his opponent into a spiral in order to use that technique. Ryoga's entire strategy was to stand perfectly still and blast Ranma every time he got close. Ranma tried to anger Ryoga, maybe even for the purpose of getting him to chase him, but Ryoga didn't fall for it, and instead used that anger to power up his ki blast further. So... yeah. Not seeing how Ranma could have possibly used the Hiryuu Shouten Ha.

For example, here Ranma had just been hit by surprise by Ryoga's first Shishi Houkoudan . Ranma's response was "Let's see if you can keep up that kind of power. One more time!"

Then, his response after the fight wasn't to try to come up with a counter strategy, instead he tries to learn the technique himself worrying that he'll be defeated if he doesn't.

His response wasn't to try and come up with a counter strategy? What? Isn't learning the technique to use against Ryoga a "counter strategy"? Or, you know, his initial reaction of trying to outlast Ryoga. That was a perfectly valid strategy as well. It only failed because Ryoga had enough ki to throw more ki blasts than Ranma could take. Ranma tried two different counter strategies, both of which failed, and he had to improvise a new technique in the midst of battle in order to win.

Contrast that to Ranma's strategy in the breaking point fight, where he improvised a strategy specifically to block Ryoga's breaking point "Breaking point block!", Ranma's fight with Herb, improvising the reverse Hiryuu Shouten Ha, Ranma's fight with Cologne at the beach, employing the cat fist, Ranma's fight with Ryu Kumon, learning the contrasting Umisenken school, etc.

I'm not getting your point here. Ranma uses a different strategy in every one of these fights. What exactly do all of those fights have in common that they don't have in common with the Shishi Houkoudan duel?

I note that Ranma does sometimes have a pattern of concentrating on a technique to the exclusion of a fight. For example, learning the Picolet Chardin's eating technique or the tea ceremony technique. So, Ranma concentrating on the technique rather than the fight is not out of character to him.

Neither of those fights are good examples of Ranma "focusing on a technique to the exclusion of a fight". Ranma was challenged to defeat Picolet and Sanae at their own styles. If he had used his own techniques, he would have been disqualified.

The Martial Arts Dining match was too extreme of a situation to be used as an example of this. The goal of that match was to out-eat the opponent, not KO him. I fail to see how any of Ranma's other techniques could have helped her in that regard, and as she couldn't enlarge her mouth, she didn't have any choice but to focus on learning the Parlay du Foie Gras.

I'm not even sure why you the Martial Arts Tea Ceremony as an example though. Ranma used a whole bunch of tea related techniques in that duel, not "concentrated on one to the exclusion of the fight".

[claymade]

Consider the constant training Ranma went through from the day they left home until the arrival at the Tendo's. I can't imagine Genma ever letting Ranma slack off and I wouldn't be surprised if he had Ranma train for at least 10 hours a day during the 12 years they were gone.

That really doesn't fit very well with what we see of Genma. Yes, he took him on a training trip. No, there's no sign whatsoever that it was that fanatical. Genma even put Ranma in school, for crying out loud, which would be a completely antithetical action to that kind of regimen. And even later, when they get to Nerima, he doesn't show any sign of drilling him that hard on the weekends or anything.

Heck, if you look at the arc where Genma becomes that kid's pet, it's pretty clear that Ranma is a heck of a lot more interested in training than even he is. In short, there's really no incongruity at all that Ryouga could have trained hard enough to give Ranma a good go.

Really, that's one of the things that makes Ryouga so freaking awesome. It's not just that he's a worthy rival for Ranma--it's that he managed to get there even with all the handicaps he has.

I'm not sure that the shi shi hokodan arc is a good measure of Ryoga v Ranma's skills...

Concerning the alternate strategies you suggested, recall that their first fight doesn't actually end on-screen. It cuts away with them fighting in daytime, and then goes to Ryouga carting Ranma home that night. And later, Ranma admits to Akane that he wasn't holding back any in their match.

In that context, the simple inference of "not holding back"--and the only one that makes any sense, in character--is that he tried any dodgings or blindings or whatever that he could think of. That's the whole point--that Ryouga is good enough that he couldn't work his way into close quarters between the ki blasts, like he does with Hinako.

(And on a particular side note, the HSH is not an automatic-win that you can just up and blow away the opponent with, without the necessary conditions being in place. It would be a rather lame game-breaker if it were.)

As you say, we do, indeed, know from very the Bakusai Tenketsu/Horisan/Phoenix Pill/Senken fights that you mention that Ranma is willing to think outside the box to defeat an opponent. And we also know from his reactions that he's horrified at the possibility of losing to Ryouga. Not horrified of failing to learn the technique. Horrified of losing. So it really doesn't make any sense that he would refuse to try other tactics. I mean, he had a whole week to think!

This also isn't like the Picolet Chardin thing, where he was constrained by the rules of the contest. Not to mention that--more to the point--you notice even then he does come up with yet another non-standard solution.

Thus, there's really no reason whatsoever to believe that Ranma was somehow constraining himself. It's entirely out of character with the whole principle that he fights under, and contradicts his stated desperation to win to boot.

If he flat-out says he wasn't holding back, let's take him at his word--instead of trying to come up with excuses for him as to how he "really actually" was.

[FriendlyEL]

I didn't say that I thought Ryoga was all that far behind Ranma, just not quite equals. The gap between him and Ranma is still as far as I'm concerned much smaller than that of Ryoga and say, Mousse, Shampoo, Ukyo or Akane. That being said though, there's probably quite a bit of Ranma's less commonplace enemies he has proven to be better than, such as Taro, Ryu, or Konatsu, that I believe Ryoga would struggle quite a bit with if not be unable to defeat.

That being said though, given his superior physical strength, I personally feel (as shown with Cologne during the Breaking Point) that if he did have a regular trainer on par with Genma Ryoga could easily be exactly equal with or maybe even exceed Ranma. I personally consider the fact that he is as close to Ranma as he is despite the crippling setbacks others mentioned to be quite the feat.

Please show some manga examples, try not to use humour examples of Ryoga loseing because I can show just as many humour examples of Ryoga cleaning Ranma's clock.

Those humor examples were really what I was thinking of. Okay, my point disproved.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Just to pitch in my 2 cents, in the anime, there's an episode where Genma takes Ryoga on as a student and, after about 2/3 days, he's a perfect match for Ranma- perhaps superior, given he manages to inflict an injury on Ranma and Ranma can't touch him (if my memory is adequate). This might prove your just-made point FriendlyEl, or it might just be nonsense. Your calls.