General Questions mk 2

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Seeing as how the other topic has been essentially taken over by a debate about Akane, I decided to move to a new topic so as to keep things clearer. These are all the questions I brought up before, but which seem to have been lost amongst the debate.

*In your opinion, exactly how old is Anything-Goes Martial Arts? Happosai calls his branch "Founding School Anything-Goes", in the anime at least, which would imply that he came up with it in the first place, yes? That means the style is at least a century old (three centuries, in the anime).

With that in mind, exactly how old are the Saotome and Tendo branches of Anything-Goes? It seems they came up with them after their training with Happosai, but the Tendo dojo is said to be a family dojo, which would imply it's been around for at least two or three generations.

*Come to think of it, what's the most likely point prior to the start of the series that the dopey duo actually trained under Happosai? They sealed away Happosai when they finished their training, and there's two events that point to that being relatively recent; Happosai was in China at least 16 to 18 years prior to the start of the series, as he midwifed Pantyhose Taro, and in the anime continuity, he encountered Natsume and Kurumi when the two were little kids and saved them, inspiring them to become martial artists- and at that point, he was aware of Soun and Soun's dojo, which is why he tells them that Soun is their father. On the other hand, who else thinks it's unlikely that they actually would have been able to attract wives and have children while "apprenticed" to the most disgusting old man in Japan? Not to mention that a more recent training with Happosai intrudes on Genma taking Ranma away on a training journey...

*Speaking of Genma, some questions on him. Alongside Akane, Genma is one of the most commonly demonized characters- somewhat understandable, given examples of canon behavior.

First of all, has Genma done anything good for his son? A lot of people focus on his mistakes, like the cat-fist and Jusenkyo, but has he done the sort of things you'd expect a father to do for his son, and can you give examples of these good/selfless deeds? For example, in the opening of the anime version of the Cradle from Hell storyline, we have a "flashback" to a scene in a cabin in the mountains outside Nerima at somepoint in winter- Ranma is 5 and he and Genma are on their training trip. Ranma shivers, and Genma asks if he is cold and gives Ranma his blanket, after which he gives a mental monologue that, though he is still in training, he feels terrible watching his son suffer.

Secondly, what kind of relationship do Ranma & Genma have? Does Ranma actually hate Genma?

*This is something I've been wondering: when and how do you folks think the whole Saotome/Tendo agreement was worked out? My personal theory is that it's something the two came up with while they were getting blitzed in celebration of "taking down" Happosai- they evidently became friends through their shared trials with the old freak, so they wanted a way to "seal" their friendship.

Secondly, out of Soun and Genma, which one is the better martial artist? My personal leaning is towards Genma; beyond the whole training journey (you do not train someone to Ranma's level by sitting around on your butt all the time), Genma of the manga has devised the Umisenken and Yamasenken schools. While he's a little more impressive in the anime, because he has the power to turn himself into a giant the way Happosai and Genma can in both canons, the only special technique Soun has ever shown us is the Demon Head.

Thirdly, which one is the better father?

Fourth; the OVA characters Natsume and Kurumi were duped into believing they were Soun Tendo's daughters and that it was their destiny to carry on the Tendo school of Anything-Goes (and they've certainly done a better job at training for it than Akane has) by Happosai- why do you think the perverted little gnome did that?

[Jupiah]

Sorry about the whole Akane debate thing. I thought most of those questions were effectively answered though. I tried my best to respond to them all.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

It's nothing against you Jupiah, I was kinda enjoying seeing you two debate- that's why I moved here, so you could continue but I could still ask questions (or answer them, if people chose to use this topic) without interrupting the debate. And yes, you have answered most, if not all of these, but part of the reason I make such 'open' topics is to get the opinions/input of as many people as turn out to be interested/have something to say.

[Jupiah]

Speaking of Genma, some questions on him. Alongside Akane, Genma is one of the most commonly demonized characters- somewhat understandable, given examples of canon behavior.

I used to believe that Genma was a lot better than fanon portrayed him, but after rereading some of the manga, I've changed my mind. In almost every arc with both Genma and Nodoka in it, Genma will physically abuse her in some way. He's drugged her, tied her up, hit her, and stolen from her. He even 'invented' a technique for it! In the Saotome family treasure arc, he throws a table at her while yelling "Saotome Final Attack: Violent Dad Technique!" No wonder she never shows any concern over his fate, and only worries about Ranma. This really makes me wonder why the heck she trusted Genma to raise Ranma to be a 'man among men', sepukku pledge or not.

Fourth; the OVA characters Natsume and Kurumi were duped into believing they were Soun Tendo's daughters and that it was their destiny to carry on the Tendo school of Anything-Goes (and they've certainly done a better job at training for it than Akane has) by Happosai- why do you think the perverted little gnome did that?

It probably has something to do with his almost-noble love of children. He told them that story to give the orphans hope, and motivate them, and it worked. It was perhaps the most generous act in Happosai's miserable life, even if he didn't think of (or care about) the problems it would eventually cause Soun.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Some more new questions from me.

While it's likely that Shampoo isn't allowed to get cured, given that her curse was her punishment for failing to bring back Ranma's head or a husband, Mousse is under no such restriction. Why, ignoring the artist/writer's whims, doesn't he ever get cured?
(My personal theory is because Mousse is a lovesick idiot who'd rather moon about Shampoo all day and wouldn't dare to leave her in case "Ranma puts the moves on her".)

Secondly, during the final battle of the Full-Body Cat's Tongue storyline, Ranma defeats Cologne by using the Nekoken. Does anyone else think that it's likely Cologne could have beaten Ranma, even in the nekoken, but chose to concede the match instead? After all, Ranma in that state has all the mind of a cat and can be easily outwitted- and Cologne is no slouch in combat herself. In the anime, she calls a whirlwind out of nowhere and rides it like a well-trained horse. If that doesn't imply power, I don't know what does.

Similarly, could it be possible that the Full-Body Cat's Tongue, while also an attempt to strongarm Ranma, might have actually been some kind of test? After Ranma wins the final battle, Cologne never pulls a stunt like that again- even with the golden opportunity of the Ultimate Weakness Moxibustion, she altruistically helps Ranma.
Speaking of which, if the Amazons were just after Ranma as a breeding stud, that was the opportune moment; the mark made him too weak to resist or to ever be able to resist, and his blood was still perfectly good- they could have simply carried him away to China and he wouldn't be able to fight back. Or kick Shampoo out of the marriage bed.

Thirdly, does Shampoo actually love Ranma? I've seen a lot of fanfics where she's only after him because of the law.
This might depend on the continuity too, as from what I've heard of the manga it sounds like Shampoo there doesn't really love him. The anime one, however, seems to genuinely love him.

[Necavit]

Cologne vs Ranma.

I beleive that Cologne could have beaten him, but in his current state, it might have killed him, Ranma was in no mood to give up. Cologne is far better than Ranma, even late in the manga during that killer noodle arc, she can down him eaisly.

She locked him in his curse form, and he wouldnt marry Shampoo, this proves that hes quite against the notion. If Cologne wanted to, Im sure she could force Ranma someway, but I think her first attempt was to see how against the notion he was. But a test aint a bad theory also.

Since hes very much against it, she left it to Shampoo to win him over. She wants a strong husband for Shampoo, not some kinda stud. So shes content to let it play out.

I dont beleive the cure is that simple as using Man spring water.
One. What kind of crappy curse has the cure right beside it.
Two. Tarou proved what happenes when you mix curses, so Mousse would be some kind of Duck man.

Finally does Shampoo love Ranma... She finds him attractive and strong, she really dosnt know anything but that, and shes all over him. Does she come to love him, guess thats kind of a toss up.

Personally I think out of all the obsession relationships, only Ryoga's love for Akane passes the bar becuase he gave up on her to make her happy, while the Kunos, Ukyou and Shampoo all went the the wedding a swinging.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

We're never told exactly where in the hundreds of springs the man-water is, and frankly it's likely the springs can even shift position now and then. Also, Taro's curse incorporating the octopus curse is likely because he's a mixed-up freak to begin with, and we've proof that drowned man-water is a cure for cursed men; before it wore off, the instant stuff worked just fine on fixing Ranma & Genma.

[Necavit]

Ah yea, I remember that stuff in the Dojo destroyer arc.

Hmm, well I guess ya got me there. I really dont know why Mousse dosnt cure himself. I guess him being afraid of Ranma being alone with Shampoo makes sense.

But than again... Shampoo orders that soap, wouldnt that be a way of circumventing the punishment? Isnt that almost as bad as just curing herself?

Mabye the Man spring is too concentrated and thats why the curses blend, so that cheap stuff is diluted and therefore a temp cure.

Yea I know Im reaching, but I think all of us can only offer speculation.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Truthfully, I think Shampoo never getting cured is more part of the neccessary "dumbness" to keep her from gaining any advantage over Akane. So long as there's the chance that she'll turn into the creature of his darkest nightmares, Ranma is always going to be wary of her. As I recall, the anime episode Niaho, Jusenkyo Guide even has Cologne suggesting to Shampoo that, once the guide finishes changing the Tendo koi pond into an outlet of the Spring of Drowned Man and the guys have gotten changed, she should ask him to change it to the Spring of Drowned Girl, so Shampoo may not even have to remain cursed.

Besides, it's stated whenever the topic comes up that the Springs of Drowned Human are cures for humans who have been cursed. Taro absorbing Octopus curse was likely because he was warped, twisted, mishmash of a freak to begin with- the spring he was bathed in was "Yeti riding ox carrying eel and crane), remember?

[Jupiah]

Truthfully, I think Shampoo never getting cured is more part of the neccessary "dumbness" to keep her from gaining any advantage over Akane. So long as there's the chance that she'll turn into the creature of his darkest nightmares, Ranma is always going to be wary of her.

To be fair, Ranma is already pretty damn wary of her for plenty of other reasons, and she has practically no chance of convincing him to willingly marry her regardless of her curse. She spent weeks trying to kill him as a girl, and has attempted to kill or hurt Akane numerous times. She attacked Akane because she thought Akane was hiding female-Ranma, She erased Akane's memory of him, ad she tried to curse Akane with Spring of Drowned Duck water. She also enjoys tormenting Ranma with her cursed form, blackmailed him with a fake cure for his cure, and attempted to control him with several magical objects. And she sees nothing wrong with any of these actions. She is a grade A bitch to Ranma, but is somehow surprised when he doesn't love her.

Besides, it's stated whenever the topic comes up that the Springs of Drowned Human are cures for humans who have been cursed. Taro absorbing Octopus curse was likely because he was warped, twisted, mishmash of a freak to begin with- the spring he was bathed in was "Yeti riding ox carrying eel and crane), remember?

I subscribe to the "curse water only changes the parts of your body that actually get wet" theory. Meaning, you have to comepletely submerge yourself to override an existing curse. There is some evidence that supports this theory in canon. For instance, when Taro tried to splash Happosai with Drowned Twins water (he thought it was Drowned Good Samaritan) only a small drop landed on a bump on Happosai's head, and it caused that bump to split into two bumps. Also, when the Jusenkyo guide sent Ranma a large barrel of Drowned Man water for his wedding, he said to them over the phone that "It's only enough for one". This also implies that Ranma was supposed to submerge himself in the water to be cured. With this theory it's also not necessary for Taro's curse to be 'special', he could have just splashed a small amount of Drowned Octopus water on his back. It never is stated or shown how he used the water.

As for no one using the Spring of Drowned Man/Woman while they are still at Jusenkyo, well I think Jusenkyo probably has some sort of enchantment on it that prevents anyone from finding a spring they actually want to find. Remember that Taro is obsessed with using Jusenkyo water to give himself easy powerups - after losing to Rouge he undoubtedly would have returned to Jusenkyo and searched for the Spring of Drowned Asura for himself. But fortunately for everyone else, he never found it. This also is a convenient explanation for why Ranma, Genma and Mousse didn't cure themselves immediately after getting cursed.

[Zwzn]

As for no one using the Spring of Drowned Man/Woman while they are still at Jusenkyo, well I think Jusenkyo probably has some sort of enchantment on it that prevents anyone from finding a spring they actually want to find. Remember that Taro is obsessed with using Jusenkyo water to give himself easy powerups - after losing to Rouge he undoubtedly would have returned to Jusenkyo and searched for the Spring of Drowned Asura for himself. But fortunately for everyone else, he never found it. This also is a convenient explanation for why Ranma, Genma and Mousse didn't cure themselves immediately after getting cursed.

I think the guide just being a moron, and nobody else really knowing much about the springs fits better myself.

[Daniel Jess Gibson]

Some more new questions from me.

Thirdly, does Shampoo actually love Ranma? I've seen a lot of fanfics where she's only after him because of the law.
This might depend on the continuity too, as from what I've heard of the manga it sounds like Shampoo there doesn't really love him. The anime one, however, seems to genuinely love him.

I can't really speak to the others, so I won't comment, but I think most of Ranma's suitors (male and female) are more in love with the idea of being Ranma's bride/groom, than they are with Ranma himself. They are more in love with the idea of being in love. I think they all show affection for him (and always in their own way, welcome or not) but I gather from their behavior, Ranma is a prize not a person to them.

[Jupiah]

I think the guide just being a moron, and nobody else really knowing much about the springs fits better myself.

The real reason is most likely that Takahashi hadn't yet thought of a cure that early in the manga. She couldn't think of a good excuse, so she just never addressed this issue at all. I'm just trying to rationalize it the best way I can, without contradicting canon. Why exactly do you think "the guide is a moron" is a better reason? That's a pretty lame excuse, your're just handwaving the issue.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

For the guide being a moron... not explaining straight away that the springs are cursed (he babbles on about their tragic legend, when he should have opened up with something along the lines of "nobody use Jusenkyo to train anymore because it curse those who enter it"), failing to warn Ranma & Genma about the nature of the Joketsuzoku, failing to suggest that they change back into their real forms when they went to the Joketsuzoku village... these all look pretty stupid to me.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

As I mentioned, in the anime, where the characters get something of a softening, it looks to me like Shampoo does love Ranma. Off the top of my head, these are some of the things she does.
-Halts her attack on the helpless Ranma-chan and, tears in her eyes, runs away
-Vocally supports/encourages Ranma when he fights Cologne for the first time (the Splitting Cat Hairs affair)
-Tries to persuade Ranma to stop fighting Cologne early in the Phoenix Pill, sounding concerned about how he's being relentlessly thrashed
-Willingly helps Ranma in the final battle for the Phoenix Pill, going against the person who is both her great-grandmother and an authority figure as well as essentially sabotaging a ploy to win her Ranma
-Is willing to cut her date short and even takes Ranma to the Tendos on her bike to help Akane, then gives him the packet without receiving the kiss she wanted
-Despite having no need to, helps Ranma find the second urn for the Japanese Nannichuan and to take the urns to the Japane Nannichuan
-Shields Ranma-chan from Ling-Ling & Lung-Lung, who are implied to have looked up to her all their lives, and even gives them the Kiss of Death when they refuse to stop attacking Ranma (Cologne comments here on how strong Shampoo's feelings for Ranma are)
-Asks in genuine concern if Ranma is happy while the two are being fitted with their wedding clothes during "Shampoo's Red Thread of Dread" (the thread is implied to only work on a loved one when she buys it as well)
-When the Ghost Cat casts a spell on her that only a kiss from the person she loves can break, only kissing Ranma breaks it