Ranma Vs Ryoga

[antimatterenergy]

Ranma vs Ryoga - Manga comparison only (heard that they're more even in the anime) Way I see it, Ranma can defeat Ryoga whenever he wants to. Ranma has enough of a speed, skill, and accuracy advantage that Ryoga should never be able to defeat Ranma without PIS (plot induced stupidity).
First fight between them Ranma was distracted, in his weaker form part of the time, and even ignoring Ryoga in favor of arguing with Akane.
When Ryoga attacked a sleeping Ranma, Ryoga didn't even manage to hit Ranma while Ranma was asleep.
During the ice skating fight Ranma was already hurt and in his weaker form.
During the breaking point story line, Ranma was dodging every single attack Ryoga made while hitting Ryoga whenever he wanted to (could have won really easy if he fought dirty like kicking Ryoga in the balls or hitting Ryoga in spots that couldn't have been toughened like eyeballs).
During the Shi Shi Haodoken story line, Ranma did not appear to actually be trying to defeat Ryoga instead he appeared to be trying to defeat Ryoga's technique. (Ranma didn't even try dodging, running up to Ryoga and attacking him while he was preparing the technique, or picking up and throwing things at Ryoga.)
The only time in my memory that Ranma needed to cheat to win was when Ryoga was given the mark of the gods tattoo. If you give Ranma access to umisenken or even some small part of the Yamasenken Ranma just wins much easier.
Tougher Ranma or Ryoga - Ryoga appears to be physically tougher than Ranma but not by an overly extreme amount. If Ranma were baseline 1 Ryoga would probably be around 1.3 but could be up to 1.5 any tougher and Ranma's use of the Amaguriken wouldn't have been able to hurt ryoga the way it did.
More endurance - This one appears to go to Ranma who seems to be able take many hits that should knock him out and keep going. Though immediately afterwards he generally collapses.
Speed - Ranma but Ryoga is not slow. He's only slow to people who move at insane speeds like Ranma.
Stamina - This one is undetermined both have shown massive amounts of stamina. Both can fight for hours on end provided they don't use extremely draining techniques as seen during the rhythmic gymnastics training. Ryoga spend lots of time walking and Ranma swam the sea of Japan.
Smarter - Ranma appears to be smarter than Ryoga and a lot less gullible.
Strength comparison:
Ryoga appears to be stronger than Ranma's female form.
Real question is which is stronger male Ranma or Ryoga?
I don't know but it is possible (even somewhat likely if you figure Ranma's female form is 1/2 as strong as his male form) that male Ranma is stronger than Ryoga. We have never seen either character pushed to their limit strength wise so we have no idea how strong either one is but we have seen feats that show both can lift things that weigh several tons and both can easily bend a steel pipe. (even Ranma's girl form can lift several tons as seen by stuffing the massive boulder into the orachi's mouth before the orachi could close it's mouth.)
Arguments I've seen where people try and prove Ryoga is stronger and the reason that their arguments don't work are:
1. During Ranma's first fight with Ryoga someone said Ryoga is monstrously strong. That was at a point in the manga that no one had seen what Ranma was capable of so their statement means nothing.
2. Ryoga is stronger because he is able to wield an extremely heavy umbrella that Akane had trouble lifting. The same umbrella Ranma's weaker girl form had no trouble lifting and swinging around with one hand. (Oh and before anyone mentions Plum being able to lift it we have no proof that it's the same umbrella Ryoga may have lost his and got a regular one as a replacement by that time or Plum could be a martial artist too wouldn't even be suprising since many of the people who live in the area are.)
3. Ryoga accidentally destroys things with his strength therefore he must be stronger than Ranma who doesn't accidentally destroy things. First Ranma has accidentally destroyed things with his strength the boat that was going to be taken to China during volume 37 for example (can list more). Second that doesn't prove in anyway that Ryoga is stronger all it shows is that Ryoga has more trouble controlling his strength than Ranma does. Third even Shampoo can destroy things easily and I've never seen anyone argue that she's stronger than Ranma.

[mondu_the_fat]

Way I see it, Ranma can defeat Ryoga whenever he wants to.

Ranma knows this, especially prior to the breaking point story and after. Cologne knows this. Even the terminally dense Akane knows this.

When Ryoga attacked a sleeping Ranma, Ryoga didn't even manage to hit Ranma while Ranma was asleep.

This means nothing if taken outside it humorous context. It says nothing about skill on either part.

could have won really easy if he fought dirty like kicking Ryoga in the balls or hitting Ryoga in spots that couldn't have been toughened like eyeballs.

Proof? To the contrary, when something explodes and you are sitting in the middle of it, shrapnel are not courteous enough to avoid delicate anatomy.

Ranma didn't even try dodging, running up to Ryoga and attacking him while he was preparing the technique, or picking up and throwing things at Ryoga

This is actually proof of stupidity, not skill. Even Ranma admits (grudgingly) that he lost.

The only time in my memory that Ranma needed to cheat to win was when Ryoga was given the mark of the gods tattoo. If you give Ranma access to umisenken or even some small part of the Yamasenken Ranma just wins much easier.

The War God Tattoo would have made mincemeat of the hidden techniques. I'm putting my money on Ryoga with the tattoo over Ashura, monster Tarou, and Ranma combined.

If Ranma were baseline 1 Ryoga would probably be around 1.3 but could be up to 1.5

I'm curious as to where you came up with these numbers.

During Ranma's first fight with Ryoga someone said Ryoga is monstrously strong. That was at a point in the manga that no one had seen what Ranma was capable of so their statement means nothing.
Ryoga is stronger because he is able to wield an extremely heavy umbrella that Akane had trouble lifting. The same umbrella Ranma's weaker girl form had no trouble lifting and swinging around with one hand.

This had two purposes. the first was to show that Ryoga was monstrously strong. The second was to show Ranma was _also_ monstrously strong. The point was that _both_ were stronger than your average human, provided a baseline in comparison to normal humans. It is not "nothing".

Third even Shampoo can destroy things easily and I've never seen anyone argue that she's stronger than Ranma.

Shampoo destroys things not of carelessness, but because she's a crass chinese barbarian. Her destroying walls as opposed to using doors are _deliberate_ acts of destruction. Ranma can easily duplicate such acts if he wanted to.
On the other hand Ryoga is shown to be destructive/strong to the point that he doesn't notice. Put another way: who is stronger, one who can deadlift a thousand pounds, or one than toss half that weight but not notice?

[antimatterenergy]

Main reason I posted this is because I seen in several other places where people have said that by end manga Ryoga can easily defeat Ranma and this is a convenient place to show that he can't and never really could without PIS.
Ranma dodging in his sleep does tell something of his skill. It tells that his danger sense protects him even in his sleep.
I don't see how it's possible for Ryoga to toughen up his eyes much. Also Ryoga generally turns his head. Ranma did not even try and go for the weak spots that still would have been weaker such as the neck, eye balls, or crotch. I'm pretty damn sure that Ryoga wouldn't have been able to call them baby slaps. Of course that has something to do with the fact that Ranma doesn't really like injuring his opponents and if he did go at those spots he could kill or at least permanently maim Ryoga. (and the crotch would be dishonorable even by Ranma's standards)
I don't really think that it was stupidity on Ranma's part since he has picked up and thrown things at others it was plot induced stupidity and Ranma wanting to defeat the technique instead of Ryoga. (Plot induced because Rumiko Takahashi was using lots of puns during that story arc for humor value that didn't really translate.)
I don't know the mark of the gods upped ryoga's defenses a lot but how would it stop the technique that was made to rip out someones heart or vacuum blades. It did not create a shield just raised Ryoga's defense but didn't seem to raise it any higher than Ryoga would be capable of.
I didn't come up with the numbers obsidian fox did before fukufics crashed I just repeated them. (probably should of mentioned that earlier but didn't think to)

I didn't say that the saying was without purpose only that people have used it to show that Ryoga is stronger and it doesn't do that.
As for the strength is Ryoga really stronger or has he just never bothered to train so he can control his strength? We don't know. We do know that Ranma's female form is weaker than his male form but one of the most impressive feats of strength in the manga is done by Ranma while female. Shoving the huge boulder into the orachi's mouth. Also Shampoo has accidentally destroyed things as well (after the hypnosis mushrooms Ranma told her to go home and she went in a straight line ignoring everything in her path without even using her hands or trying.)

[mondu_the_fat]

Ranma dodging in his sleep does tell something of his skill. It tells that his danger sense protects him even in his sleep.

Occam's razor. It could be he was moving in his sleep.

I don't see how it's possible for Ryoga to toughen up his eyes much.

I don't see how sticking a finger in a rock can cause it to explode, but meh. He sits in the middle of the explosion. Whether or not you see how it toughens him up is irrelevant.

Also Ryoga generally turns his head.

Generally means often. Proof?

Ranma did not even try and go for the weak spots that still would have been weaker such as the neck, eye balls, or crotch.

Neither does Ryoga. Or anyone else in the series. Just because Ranma doesn't go for such hits doesn't mean he's a better fighter.

I don't really think that it was stupidity on Ranma's part

A ball of paniful energy is heading your way. Do you dodge or not? Since Ranma doesn't need to get hit by the technique (that often), yes, this falls within the realm of extreme stupidity.

I don't know the mark of the gods upped ryoga's defenses a lot but how would it stop the technique that was made to rip out someones heart or vacuum blades. It did not create a shield just raised Ryoga's defense but didn't seem to raise it any higher than Ryoga would be capable of.

Are you serious?

I didn't say that the saying was without purpose only that people have used it to show that Ryoga is stronger and it doesn't do that.

Yes it does, quite clearly. Shampoo's displays of strength were meant to display strength, meaning she had to put effort into them. Ryoga's were things he doesn't even notice. To him, they were effortless.

after the hypnosis mushrooms Ranma told her to go home and she went in a straight line ignoring everything in her path without even using her hands or trying

She does that as it is reflective of her supposed barbaric attitude. It would have been out of character for her (and less humourous) to pick a door.

[Knight of L-sama]

If it came down to a simple (not that Ranma and Ryouga can ever keep anything simple) arm wrestling match my money would be on Lost Boy.
Anything beyond that is more complex involving their styles. I believe however that the point most people use that in terms of absolute combat ability Ryouga is the closest of Ranma's regular opponents as opposed to occasional or once of fights like Rogue, Taro, Herb, Saffron and so on.

[Atlan]

If Ranma were baseline 1 Ryoga would probably be around 1.3 but could be up to 1.5

No way on that score. Remember, the Amaguriken is doing many, MANY normal strength punches in the same place at the same time. Like, not one or two, but doubble or tripple figgures. At ALMOST NORMAL STRENGTH! Yet ryoga shrugs the off like a normal (in ranma) martial artist would with one exceptionally strong punch- it hurts, but wont keep him down.
Ranma has to punch ryoga a lot before he falls, and ranma will hurt from a much smaller number number of blows.
The best way to judge Ranma's toughness compared to Ryogas would be to find out the exact number or punches in an Amaguriken, and that would be how many times less resistant to damage ranma is compared to Ryoga.

[antimatterenergy]

I'm not going to argue about it just being him moving in his sleep because that is possible though would be much more of a coincidence, especially with the number of quick movements.
It's possible to make rocks explode in real life but a finger isn't strong enough and it isn't very likely to happen. (If you're really lucky and you take a pick to a rock you might make it crumble though, outright exploding into pieces is harder but if you shoot a rock with a powerful enough gun you can cause it to shatter in multiple directions.)
I never said that it made him a better fighter only that since this was a life or death situation he could have and Ranma has hit people in weak spots Kuno when he did that kick after kuno managed to hit him in the side and the dojo destroyer when Shampoo put fake instant cures over them. He didn't even try against Ryoga most likely because the amount of force needed to over come his toughness when applied to those parts of the body can cause massive permanent damage. If he had done so he would have won faster and wouldn't have had too put as much effort into it.
I wasn't talking about the lesser shi shi hadoken I was talking about the large near perfect versions. Ranma didn't attack because of all the jokes/puns that were taking place (but we don't get them in translation). As for the smaller ones that was CIS (Character induced stupidity) he was trying to learn it by taking the hits when he should have dodged and observed. Also the smaller ones are faster and need less time to build up so he had less chance to dodge and might not had the time to.
What defense did the mark of the gods give Ryoga against energy attacks? It seems to have raised Ryoga's defense and allow him to dodge attacks but no more so than Ryoga could eventually train to same as the dogi increased Akanes abilities but still gave no defense against ki attacks. Also I already said that was the only time Ranma could not have outright defeated Ryoga without cheating.
As for Ryoga turning his head I can't give proof at the moment because I don't feel like looking through the manga for when Ryoga used the breaking point and even if those parts were toughened they would still be weaker then his stomach the place where Ranma ended up hitting Ryoga.
Shampoo was already outside at the time she went the fences and outer walls.
When they said that (observer's who said Ryoga was a monster) it provided purpose in telling us that Ranma and Ryoga are super strong but it doesn't prove in any way that Ryoga is stronger than Ranma. Since none of them knew what Ranma was capable of.
Also I'm not really trying to say that Ranma is stronger only that it is possible. The manga doesn't really show in anyway as to which character is stronger. Everyone just assumes Ryoga is because of his casual destruction of property a feat which even Akane has done when angry.
If I was going by feats I'd say Ranma because Ranma is weaker when female and yet one of the most impressive feats strength wise was done by him while female.
The 1.3 and 1.5 where made by memeory but I was able to find the original post. Here is a direct quote from the old forum made by obsidian fox found by using google cache.

Toughness => Power => Equivalent Fight
1x => 1x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Soldier (3000W)
1.13x => 1.2x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Fit Male (2500 W)... it would hurt
1.3x => 1.5x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Avg. Male (2000W) (he could take a bunch of them)
1.5x => 2.0x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Unfit Male (1500W) (if he swings really hard, the soldier might even feel it.)
2x => 3x => Soldier (3000W) vs. debilitated old man who can barely walk up stairs (1000W). (Please go die somewhere else...)
So... if Ryouga is only 2x as tough as Ranma, he'd be able to ignore pretty much any blow that Ranma ever makes... even if Ranma made a lot of them. 2x is really the maximum one could place Ryouga's toughness over Ranma's. 1.5x is a truly plausible value for Ryouga's toughness boost. Much higher than 1.5, it wouldn't matter if Ranma threw 10 punches or 100. The most they'd ever do is cause light bruises.
However, on the other end, 1.3x toughness might be a little on the low-end for the boost, unless you consider toughness in other ways (e.g. extra endurance, pain resistance, etc.). With much lower toughness, Ryouga wouldn't be able to pretend those blows didn't hurt him.

[Khortez]

I'd say that Ryouga has the edge on Ranma in strength, but not dramatically so, and the same goes with constitution (the ability to take a hit in RPG terms).
In a straight up test of strenght the winner would be Ryouga. In a straight up test of being able to take hits, Ryouga would win. In a battle of speed Ranma would win, as well as in a battle of skill.
However, in a fight, Ranma is always more determined to win, so he can take more hits than Ryouga can, perform incredible feats of strenght that would rival Ryouga with his will power alone. Ranma's main strength is that no matter if the opponent is stronger than him, faster, more skilled, he will find a way to win.
Ki attacks aren't that different from regular attacks, they are just physical attacks that that can be done from a distance. Anyways, the series isn't that consistent with their overall powerlevels. Just like Ryouga breaks things without knowing it, after the moxibustion arc, when he was healed Ranma was shown running around through building and destroying them.

[antimatterenergy]

Actually the series is pretty consistent about strength. Ranma could always have run through buildings destroying them it's just that he generally doesn't destroy property. We see Ranma perform strength feats all the time for ex. bending Ukyo's spatial, breaking Gosunkugi's stake with a flick of his fingers, lifting a giant ice covered boulder in the battle verses saffron, etc... Ranma just prefers not to destroy his surroundings unlike Shampoo and Ryoga who don't care or do so to display their strength. Also we have seen that Ranma occasionally overused his strength as well, I doubt he wanted to sink the ship that was taking him to china for instance.

[Hiryo]

I have to agree with antimatterenergy on that.
I think that Ranmas male form could even be stronger then Ryoga since after the Hiryu
Shouten Ha arc when Ranma got his strenght back he destroyed the nearby wall easily like
going through butter. Furthermore Ranma always holds back since he don't want to kill in
contrary to his opponents like Ryoga.

[A.Nonymous]

You have to think of Ranma as one of those Cheezy Kung Fu movies they put out in Hong Kong a couple of decades ago. You know, where everyone can jump thirty feet in the air and calls out their attacks by name.
Ranma dodging Ryoga's blows is straight Kung-fu-Theater. Haven't you ever seen the aged master, falling asleep in the middle of a battle with the young punk and yet still manage to block and dodge? It shows that the battle isn't even worth staying awake for... In Ranma's case, Ryoga wasn't even worth waking up for.

[Cyber_Skaarj]

Stamina - This one is undetermined both have shown massive amounts of stamina. Both can fight for hours on end provided they don't use extremely draining techniques as seen during the rhythmic gymnastics training. Ryoga spend lots of time walking and Ranma swam the sea of Japan.

I'm not sure on this, but I think I recall a previous topic stating that Ranma swimming to China was anime only (just stating this as you said you only wanted to use the manga as reference).

I don't know the mark of the gods upped ryoga's defenses a lot but how would it stop the technique that was made to rip out someones heart or vacuum blades. It did not create a shield just raised Ryoga's defense but didn't seem to raise it any higher than Ryoga would be capable of.

This is that funny face that was drawn on Ryoga's belly right? In which case, it didn't raise Ryoga's defence, it made him unbeatable. As in no matter what trick or technique Ranma could try and use on him (even the sealed if he had them at that point), Ryoga would always be able to block, dodge, deflect, parry or even outright ingore them, even if he didn't realise he was doing so.

[antimatterenergy]

Ranma swimming to China is manga it's said in volume 4.
As for the mark of the god's in my opinion it just raised Ryoga's stat's similiar to the dogi Akane got. But I'll admit that is just my opinion. Though even if it does make Ryoga unbeatable I don't see how it would make Ryoga block, parry, (would need some type of energy attack and it didn't bestow energy attacks to Ryoga) or dodge (Ranma is faster than Ryoga and he couldn't dodge it completely) a vacuum blade or the big mad dance where many blades are thrown. Or a massive ki blast the likes of dragonball Z planet busting. Though since it appears to be magical I won't rule it out.

[Jester_of_doom]

Ok so I personally think ryoga has strength and endurance way over what ranma does.
Ryoga takes hundreds of amiguriken punches in a second from Ranma. Force is equal to mass X velocity squared. Ranma's amiguriken punches have to be much harder than his normal punches actually are and yet ryoga takes hundreds of them. Ryoga on the other hand seems to deal the same amount of damage to Ranma with single punches. He lands no where near as many but each one seems to count a whole lot more. also in the weakness moxibostion arc ryoga seems to take simultanious attacks from Mousse, kuno and his dad, and gosinkugi (tho that one isnt hard) and send them all flying with one hit. Also in the water-proof soap arc Akane rips a metal post from the concrete and beats Ryoga over the head with it; Ranma would at least be floored by the action, Ryoga did not notice it.
Also i have to agree with mondu, ryoga does feats of strength on accident; that tends to speak of more strength than people who do it on purpose.
Concerning the mark of the gods i think the vacuum blades would win. Its not magical its Chi based. The mark agumented his chi focus. In fact Ryoga never dodges any of the attacks, he counter attacks before he is hit. What can he do to counter a vacuum blade thrown from a distance? Perhaps he could use something as a physical sheild but maybe not. Heck maybe if Ryoga couldnt sense ranma at all due to the Umi-sen-ken he wouldn't be able to counter. Remember just because someone says the technique is invincible doesn't mean it is... i'm saffron, mousse, ryoga, kuno, and herb all claim they are unbeatable incorrectly at some point.
Also you guys are assuming that the breaking point training was purely physical. Ryoga could have developed a subconcious use of chi to reinforce his body, otherwise the toughness would be like impossible to have uniform anyway, realistically his back would probably be one big soft spot since the boulders always hit him from the front. Besides he ended up seeing a glowing dot where he needed to strike... if thats not chi based its some kinda crazy magic stuff. Also the only reaonable manner i can think of for a rock to explode like that would be chi augmented reonance frequency, thermal variation, or emission of energy in a fractal style pattern. Even with chi i dont get how he could tunnel, he would have to destroy matter.

[antimatterenergy]

Jester of doom - Ryoga breaking things on accident seems to me more a lack of control than proof of strength and even if you do consider it a proof strength Ranma has accidentally broken thing when distracted as well.
Ranma's amiguriken punches are not more powerful than Ranma's regular punches. They are a whole bunch of shallow punches good for hurting surface musscles and keeping Ryoga in place followed by a deep punch. Ranma's deep punches are actually much stronger but they also send Ryoga flying. Ranma's deep punches were not hurting Ryoga enough becuase Ryoga would just go flying and the energy from the punches was getting spread out more. There was a 6 page thread on this before fukufics got destroyed it also told how Ranma could have used a large amount of deep kicks to take Ryoga down. So in all probability Ryoga's punches are not stronger than Ranma's, Just all of Ryoga's punches are deep.
About toughness Ryoga has more probably but it can't be overly large amount more because if it was Ranma would be unable to hurt Ryoga. Also Ranma has taken hits as hard as the one Akane did to Ryoga even harder than that and ignored them. For example, During the time when Ranma is weak and learning the Hiryu Shoten Ha Ryoga hits Ranma into the mountain hard enough to leave a large impact crater and Ranma gets up like it was nothing.
Endurance would probably be Ranma because Ranma has shown he can take more hits that hurt and keep going than just about anyone in the series. ALso endurance is not the same as toughness.