Ranma fights that would be fun to see

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Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:49 am

Andy2kk wrote:Okay responding to an old post, but Cassandra was Batgirl III. Helena(huntress) was the second.

I'm going to be a history pedant here. The first BatWOMAN was Kathy Kane, and her niece Betty was the first BatGIRL. Then you had Barbara Gordon. I wasn't aware that Huntress was also Batgirl, but if so, Cassandra Cain would be the fourth Batgirl. Don't even get me started on BatHound or BatApe.
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Postby FriendlyEL » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:16 pm

Funny this was revived just when I thought of another fight today, even if it is really an anime cannon. I sort of wonder just how Ukyo or Shampoo would have done against Natsumi or Kurumi from that OAV episode.

Anyways, just some statements on ones whatever mentioned.

Saffron vs Cologne

Happosai vs Cologne


Hard to say since the only fights we've seen any three of those go even remotely serious was against Ranma when he was given quite a few powerups (Neko-ken against Cologne, Panties for Happi, Lots with Saffron). The Nekoken was the only way Ranma, at least at that point in the series, was able to put nary a dent on Cologne, and I'm sure she'd have quite a bit more under her sleeve

Happosai when he's serious (by serious, I mean without the usual underwear trick played in) is actually fairly dangerous, and has raw chi abilities even moreso than Cologne does likely, but at the same point Cologne would probably have alot of tricks. That one I think would be a long, brutal fight and the winner would probably depend on their luck more than anything.

Saffron has even more raw power, but even less skill to manipulate it, so once again I'm wondering whether it would go well for him or not. Then again, wasn't Cologne sort of scared of both Saffron and Herb?

Another one I would like to see personally (though I've mentioned it before) Happosai vs. post-failed wedding/Saffron Ranma.
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Postby Spokavriel » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:24 pm

Cologne couldn't go against the Phoenix or the Musk because of fear of an all out tribal war. All members of the tribes out for blood is a much different situation than the fights Ranma got to have.

And without the tribes in the area how long do you think it would be before the peoples army came in and tried to deal with the remainder? Who knows if they would be intimidated by just Amazons?
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Postby Jupiah » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:00 pm

How about a 'Battle of the Titans' matchup, Herb vs. Saffron? Everyone seems to like to speculate how Ranma's peers would do against the two of them, so I'm curious as to how everyone thinks a match between these powerhouses would go. It would be one hell of a fight! Both of them have shattered mountains before, so this fight would be approaching early Dragonball Z levels of destruction. Here's my opinion on how it would go:

Saffron would have an advantage if he stayed airborne, because Herb's signature technique, the 'Ryu Sei Hishou' is only effective against a landbound opponent, since it depends on the many ki blasts he releases rebounding towards his foe off of nearby surfaces in order to confuse and overwhelm them. In adition, although Herb can fly as well, he can only do so for short periods of time and doesn't seem to be nearly as fast or maneuverable as Saffron is in the air.

Saffron's regeneration is a concern as well. Concussive attacks only seem to be able to stun him, so the majority of Herb's ki blasts would be largely ineffective. The only weaknesses to this regeneration seem to be ice, which stops it completely (when Ranma cut off Saffron's arm with the Gekkaja, it didn't regenerate until the ice had melted) and cutting ki, although he would have to slice him up faster than he could regenerate in order to take him down (Saffron boasted to Ranma that he would have to cut his entire body to pieces in oder to defeat him).

I think the fight would mostly turn into a long range sniping match, with Saffron hurling fireballs and Herb throwing his 'Flying Dragon Blades' at Saffron. I think Herb's only chance is to stun Saffron with a massive ki blast and fillet him with a barrage of Dragon Blades, or use the Hiryuu Shoten Ha to blind Saffron in order to get close enough to use his ki sword.

If the battle takes place before Saffron and Ranma's battle at Jusendo, Herb might be able to pull it off, but if it takes place afterwards than Saffron will be wise to the Hiryuu Shoten Ha trick and I don't think Herb can win. Either way the odds are still in Saffron's favor.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:26 pm

Herb would have no chance to win. Saffron can take any energy attacks. It wasn't until Ranma slugged him that he even had a reason to take the fight seriously. Both of their energies are fire aligned and a minor demigod of fire Vs a descendant of a dragon. Even if they battled near cliffs giving a chance for that signature attack to be brought into the equation in a useful way there is nothing Herb does in a fight that would be particularly useful.

It's like asking how much you could hurt a volcano by tossing in some fireworks. Sure the explosions could damage the rock walls but the volcano would still stand there with all it's power still waiting for when it is ready to unleash it.
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Postby Jupiah » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:10 pm

Spokavriel wrote:Saffron can take any energy attacks.

Where the heck did you get this idea? Only two kinds of 'energy' are used against Saffron in that duel; the heat backlash of the Kinjakan and the cold of the Gekkaja. While Saffron is immune to the heat of the Kinjakan, he is actually vulnerable to the cold of the Gekkaja - being frozen temporarily halted his regeneration and Ranma destroyed him with a Gekkaja-powered ice tornado. So this statement simply isn't true.

Spokavriel wrote:It wasn't until Ranma slugged him that he even had a reason to take the fight seriously.

I disagree. Saffron was taking that fight seriously from the very beginning. Every attack he used against Ranma was a killing blow; Ranma only survived each fireball because Akane's dehydrated body and the cold of the Gekkaja shielded him from the heat. Furthermore, Saffron's transformation was incomplete and he couldn't regulate his powers. He had to win quickly so he could return to the springs before he burnt himself out.

Spokavriel wrote:Both of their energies are fire aligned and a minor demigod of fire Vs a descendant of a dragon.

Where does it say that Herb's ki is 'fire aligned'? I was under the impression that Herb's ki blasts were concussive blasts of kinetic energy, just like Ranma and Ryoga's, albeit far more powerful. And Saffron is NOT a demigod. Nowhere is it said that he is a god, half-god, demi-god, or even 'god-like'. He is part-phoenix, and he is mortal. A very long-lived and almost impossible to kill mortal, but a mortal none the less.

Spokavriel wrote:Even if they battled near cliffs giving a chance for that signature attack to be brought into the equation in a useful way there is nothing Herb does in a fight that would be particularly useful.

Except for his dragon blades and ki sword. Saffron admits that he can be defeated by cutting his body to pieces. This is something that Herb is very much capable of doing, but he would have a hell of a time getting Saffron to sit still long enough to hit him with his dragon blades or getting close enough to use his ki sword. Which is why I said that the odds are definately in Saffron's favor in this fight.
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Postby antimatterenergy » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:47 pm

I figure Herb would win. Herb is a much better fighter than Saffron and if Herb gets close enough to Saffron he'd would tear Saffron to pieces. Herb has more techniques and assuming Saffron does not have the fire staff Herb will win.

Ranma only survived each fireball because Akane's dehydrated body and the cold of the Gekkaja shielded him from the heat.


I disagree with that. Saffron thinks that Akane shielded Ranma because he couldn't conceive a lowly mortal surviving his blast. The flames still covered Ranma and left him in a crater so most of it still would have hit him. Ranma has withstood high temperatures before Ashura and when Happosai gave him a cold. Ranma also has a technique that generates cold - the one he uses with the Hiryu Shoten Ha to the point that Ryoga said so cold which also would have helped shield Ranma. Also if your judging it by the line which Ranma says Akane why I'm supposed to be saving you the text translation doesn't say that it just has ranma say "Akane!" then commenting about her eyes closing which I'm pretty sure is what the original says I'd check but I don't have it on me. So it is possible Ranma would have survived the blast without Akane, just because Saffron thinks that is why may not have been why Ranma's natural toughness, resistance to heat, and possibly generating cold ki could have been the largest factor.

Herb's ki is 'fire aligned'?


While the ki blasts are mostly concussive force their is a heat element to them as well. This is shown by Ranma's shirt being singed by Ryoga's ki blast, Ranma and Ryoga's ki blast that destroyed Akane's room while under the mushrooms of aging burning the mushrooms, aura's being hot (as demonstrated behind Hiryu Shoten Ha and Akane mistaking the heat from a hair dryer for Kasumi's anger aura), and Nabiki's comment about hot air when Ranma was throwing them. Though the heat is not hot enough or the duration of the blasts not long enough for things to burst into flame (usually the mushrooms of aging did burn up).
Last edited by antimatterenergy on Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:57 pm

I'm just dropping most of what I said and adding I need to read again. The one thing left about the heat How does the fight against Herb end? What attack is used to defeat Herb and what energy is used for it. Sorry to have looked like a bigger fool than Ranma at his dimmest but on this one point there is still supporting evidence.
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Postby Jupiah » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:54 am

antimatterenergy wrote:I figure Herb would win. Herb is a much better fighter than Saffron and if Herb gets close enough to Saffron he'd would tear Saffron to pieces. Herb has more techniques and assuming Saffron does not have the fire staff Herb will win.

Herb is a better fighter, I'll grant you that, and I think he would win if he could get close, but I doubt Saffron would give him that opportunity. Saffron is a ranged fighter. Ranma only managed to get close because he trapped Saffron inside a Hiryuu Shouten Ha, and if this battle is taking place after Jusendo then I doubt Saffron will fall for that technique again.

I don't see how the having the Kinjakan would make that big of a difference. There is no evidence that it boosts Saffrons power by any significant amount. He needed it to fight Ranma only because Ranma was using the Gekkaja. The Kinjakan and Gekkaja mirror each other, perfectly reflecting the others attack. He needed the fire staff only to cancel the advantage Ranma gained from using the ice staff, not to gain more power for himself.

antimatterenergy wrote:I disagree with that. Even though Saffron thinks that Akane shielded Ranma because he couldn't conceive a lowly mortal surviving his blast. The flames still covered Ranma and left him in a crater and he did take Saffron's blasts earlier. I think that Saffron said that because he couldn't think of another possible way Ranma could have survived.

They make it very clear that Ranma was only standing after that fireball because of Akane. Ranma points out in shock that her body has gotten much hotter. They spend an entire page explaining exactly how she protected him. They flames did still hit him, but Akane had absorbed most of the heat from them. Yes, he did take the blast immediately before that one without using her as a shield, but he was also still wielding the Gekkaja at that point. For you to claim he would have survived that fireball relatively uninjured without her help is a bit odd, in light of all that evidence. I suppose he might have survived it, but he wouldn't have been in any condition to continue fighting.

antimatterenergy wrote:Ranma has withstood high temperatures before Ashura and when Happosai gave him a cold.

Neither Rouge nor Happosai's 'super-cold' could melt rock into lava. Saffron's fire could. Saffron is on a whole other level of heat than Rouge is. Saying that Ranma could survive Saffron's fireball because he survived Rouge's is like saying he could survive standing in a blast furnace because he once stood on a campfire.

antimatterenergy wrote:Ranma also has a technique that generates cold - the one he uses with the Hiryu Shoten Ha to the point that Ryoga said so cold which also would have helped shield Ranma.

That technique is called the 'Body of Ice'. Ryoga may have been chilled by that technique, but thats all. Ranma didn't freeze water vapor or create ice, so it wasn't that powerful; just enough to set up a temperature differential for the Hiryuu Shouten Ha. He may very well have been employing that technique the entire battle with Saffron in order to fight within the fire tornado (although there is no evidence he was actually doing so) but it wouldn't have protected him from a direct blast from one of Saffron's fireballs.

antimatterenergy wrote:Also if your judging it by the line which Ranma says Akane why I'm supposed to be saving you the text translation doesn't say that it just has ranma say "Akane!" then commenting about her eyes closing which I'm pretty sure is what the original says I'd check but I don't have it on me. .

I'm not saying Akane protected him because of that line. I'm saying it because she clearly did protect him, twice, and from the page long conversation explaining how she did it.

antimatterenergy wrote:While the ki blasts are mostly concussive force their is a heat element to them as well.

I know that ki blasts contain some amount of heat (sorry if I didn't make that clear), I was arguing because Spokavriel spoke as if that all that Herbs ki blasts are comprised of. Even if the heat wouldn't affect Saffron, the concussive force still would.
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Postby antimatterenergy » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:15 am

Gekkaja was not activated and releasing cold until later in the fight after Ranma thought he accidentally broke it. It was not giving off cold at that point.

Logically it would boost Saffrons power since Saffron's power is heat based and it is a heat staff. Heat based power + heat giving staff = greater heat based power. Similarly activated ice staff + technique that generates cold = colder temperatures. Saffrons most powerful attacks were all done with the staff in hand. Can he do them without the staff yes but probably would not be as powerful.

Page does not explain how Ranma survived. Page explains how one character in this case Saffron thought Ranma survived whether that was how it happened or not is unknown and is conjecture. Saffron had little to no knowledge on Ranma's abilities and had a very dim view on humans so he's not the most reliable source of information for the true reasons why Ranma survived the blast. Did Akane's falling into the blast lessen it possibly though doesn't really make sense. My assumption is Ranma's shown resistance to heat, use of a technique which makes him cold, and his toughness was the primary reason for him surviving the blast. Akane may have helped some but I can't see how she would have absorbed an overly large amount. She was small and the blast was large so most of the heat would have just gone around her and had she absorbed so very much heat enough that it would have seriously hurt Ranma,how was Ranma able to touch her she would still be much to hot for him to touch? I don't really care enough to keep arguing but in my personal opinion Ranma would still have survived the attack maybe more singed but still would have been able to keep going.

BTW the technique is not Body of ice in the manga that particular part of the Hiryu Shoten Ha is never given a name and how cold Ranma can make it is never shown. There was no water around Ranma to freeze when he used it and he was near a heat source i.e. the person he was using the Hiryu Shoten Ha against which may have prevented the freezing of water vapor (also don't know weather conditions may have been low humidity or to short duration of maintaining the temperature for the freezing of water to have happened). The ice staff froze the water in the ground but only while near it and away from a heat source, so we really can't tell how much more powerful a cold it generates than Ranma - I'd guess it does do more so than Ranma's "body of ice" but to how large a degree is unknown.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:44 am

The soul of ice isn't as viable a reason for Ranma's heat resistance as say the phoenix pill that was used to counter the full body cats tongue. The full extent of the pill and the technique when it comes to cooling are both left incompletely illustrated. Combining the two together lets me imagine it could help but it's still guessing.
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Postby Jupiah » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:29 am

antimatterenergy wrote:Gekkaja was not activated and releasing cold until later in the fight after Ranma thought he accidentally broke it. It was not giving off cold at that point.

That is a good point. Looking at that scene again, it appears as if he might be leaping away, moving with the blast to lessen the impact. The wall behind him also gives on impact, unlike the ground he is slammed into later when Akane protects him, which would greatly lesson the damage as well. So that first blast wasn't nearly as dangerous as the second one.

antimatterenergy wrote:Logically it would boost Saffrons power since Saffron's power is heat based and it is a heat staff. Heat based power + heat giving staff = greater heat based power.

I agree with this statement completely. However, the staff isn't exactly capable of shooting fireballs on it's own, so it's not overwhelmingly powerful, and Saffron's power is so immense already that the amount it is boosted by the Kinjakan is practically insignificant. Saffron wasn't shown to be even slightly winded after using his ultimate attack, so I'm pretty sure the staff isn't necessary to peform it. The weapon was far more useful to him for it's ability to counter the Gekkaja, which would be unneccessary against Herb, unless Herb has somehow acquired the ice staff for this battle. So I stand by my statement that in a duel between Saffron and Herb, whether or not Saffron has the Kinjakan would have very little effect on the outcome.

antimatterenergy wrote:Did Akane's falling into the blast lessen it possibly though doesn't really make sense.

As illogical as it may be for Akane to be able to absorb that much heat (and I agree, it's pretty damn illogical) she clearly was capable of doing so, as she did it again later in the same duel. She actually punched a hole straight through Saffron's ultimate attack, which was previously shown to be able to blow away an entire mountain top. How the hell she survived doing that is beyond me, but the fact that she did so is clear and obvious. It's rather foolish to try and argue with canon on this.

antimatterenergy wrote:BTW the technique is not Body of ice in the manga that particular part of the Hiryu Shoten Ha is never given a name and how cold Ranma can make it is never shown.

Cologne herself calls it the Body of Ice. As for how cold it is, I really think you're overanalyzing everything here. If the Body of Ice generated that much cold, Takahashi would have made it more obvious I think. To survive Saffrons ultimate attack, Ranma had to freeze himself solid with the Gekkaja. Ranma has never done anything even remotely that powerful with the Body of Ice.

As for the phoenix pill, while that did give Ranma extra heat resistance, it only brought his resistance up to his previous limit, because the Full-Body Cat's Tongue was never actually cured.
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Postby Daniel Jess Gibson » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:47 am

I'm going to break the argument and propose one I'd love to see. The entire cast against Godzilla or any other giant kaiju. Powerful as they are, they aren't up to facing a 50,000 ton menace who has range and firepower on his side.

How mad would Godzilla have to be and how could they arrange an Hiryu Shoten Ha that would blow him off the mainland? Could Akane accidentally produce an Oxygen Destroyer out of oatmeal, bleach and hair gel? Could Kodachi make one on purpose? What about Kasumi and Tofu rescuing the many victims of the titan's mad rampage? What about Azusa trying to drag Robespierre back to her house? What would happen to Hinako if she tries her coin trick on Godzilla? 'Hulk smash delinquents!'

Why doesn't this idiot write it himself?

These and other questions will be . . . sorry, too much 60's Batman.
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Postby Jupiah » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:58 am

Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:I'm going to break the argument and propose one I'd love to see. The entire cast against Godzilla or any other giant kaiju. Powerful as they are, they aren't up to facing a 50,000 ton menace who has range and firepower on his side.

The fic Dark Titans by Lathis actually does this fight. It's an imitation Godzilla, so it's not as powerful as the real thing, but it's still a 40 story tall walking engine of destruction! Ranma, Ryu Kumon, Natsume and Kurumi (from the OVAs) and Lightining and Thunder (Teen Titans crossover characters) take him down, and it's actually believable how they defeat it too.

Daniel Jess Gibson wrote:What would happen to Hinako if she tries her coin trick on Godzilla? 'Hulk smash delinquents!'

Holy crap, that has got to be the funniest mental image I've ever had!
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:22 pm

That seems like a good crossover idea. Bruce Banner and his cousin She-Hulk decide to go on Vacation and chose Nerima because they hear that no matter how strange you are as long as you aren't a Deamon or Kaiju they will take it as normal.

Could you see Doctor Banner and Dr Tofu talking with Cologne trying to work out alternative cures for their particular variation on "Radiation Poisoning" and the NWC getting into a scrap with them?
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