Ranma cast's seven deadly sins

[claymade]

It was a one on one fight, and therefore it was Ranma's to win or lose.

That's incorrect. It was a team competition, not a one on one fight. Akane didn't intrude on a one on one fight, she joined the Seisyun team, whose other members had been poisoned by Mariko before the matches started.

Ranma had every right to be angery with Akane.

Wrong on multiple levels. First of all, even if she had intruded on a one on one fight (which she didn't) he would still only have had the right to be angry with her for doing that (which he wasn't). He does not have the right to lie about the effect her contribution actually had (which he did), and thus make himself look better.

But what makes the supposedly "unwanted help" interpretation absolutely untenable is that nobody forced Ranma to accept Akane's help. Her appearance wouldn't have benefited him at all if he hadn't chosen to switch sides--which he does gleefully.

To accept--of your own free will--someone's help, use it to win, and then turn around and disparage them for it is the act of a two-faced jerk. Ranma does not have "every right" to be angry at her--in fact, he doesn't have anything remotely resembling a leg to stand on here.

[Zwzn]

It was a one on one fight, and therefore it was Ranma's to win or lose.

That's incorrect. It was a team competition, not a one on one fight. Akane didn't intrude on a one on one fight, she joined the Seisyun team, whose other members had been poisoned by Mariko before the matches started.

Ranma had every right to be angery with Akane.

Wrong on multiple levels. First of all, even if she had intruded on a one on one fight (which she didn't) he would still only have had the right to be angry with her for doing that (which he wasn't). He does not have the right to lie about the effect her contribution actually had (which he did), and thus make himself look better.

But what makes the supposedly "unwanted help" interpretation absolutely untenable is that nobody forced Ranma to accept Akane's help. Her appearance wouldn't have benefited him at all if he hadn't chosen to switch sides--which he does gleefully.

To accept--of your own free will--someone's help, use it to win, and then turn around and disparage them for it is the act of a two-faced jerk. Ranma does not have "every right" to be angry at her--in fact, he doesn't have anything remotely resembling a leg to stand on here.

The way I see it Akane should not have been in that fight at all, but that could just be me. Akane was not actually a member of any of those teams.

[antimatterenergy]

He does not have the right to lie about the effect her contribution actually had (which he did), and thus make himself look better

Personally I don't think he was lying about her contribution. I think he fully believed her to be more a hindrance than a help. Sure from our point of view (third person)we see her as being more helpful, but from his point of view she may have been seen as more of a bother than a help. So I'd say he wasn't lying in that instance.

[claymade]

Personally I don't think he was lying about her contribution. I think he fully believed her to be more a hindrance than a help. Sure from our point of view (third person)we see her as being more helpful, but from his point of view she may have been seen as more of a bother than a help. So I'd say he wasn't lying in that instance.

If he can actually talk himself into believing that Akane was more of a hindrance than a help in that situation, then his pride and ego have overwhelmed him to a quite ugly extent.

Besides, look at what he says in the panel after that--he actually goes so far as to angrily claim that he "had everything under control"--a blatant lie in and of itself, as contradicted by his own thoughts. His credibility is thus quite clearly and obviously in the crapper as far as being honest regarding this issue goes.

The way I see it Akane should not have been in that fight at all, but that could just be me. Akane was not actually a member of any of those teams.

And why would it be invalid for her to join? Heck, Ranma switches teams in mid-freaking-battle, and there's nary a sign anywhere that any of it is considered improper by anyone. If you really want to bash Akane, then the burden is kinda on you to prove that she did anything wrong there, 'cause there's no evidence for it that I can see.

Plus, you've got to deal with the fact that I mentioned in my last post--that Ranma freely accepts her help up until he's out of danger, and only then does he turn and bite the hand that got him there.

And finally, not only is there no basis for saying she did anything wrong there, but it's also utterly irrelevant to the question at hand. The issues you are raising--even if they were somehow true--are not the issues that Ranma is on her case over.

Whether Ranma has "every right" to do something he didn't do is in the end largely immaterial. The question is whether he had "every right" to do what he did do--which is make his condescending claim that Akane hindered him in the fight.

[antimatterenergy]

If he can actually talk himself into believing that Akane was more of a hindrance than a help in that situation, then his pride and ego have overwhelmed him to a quite ugly extent.

Not really. His pride and Ego didn't have to overwhelm him. If he was dwelling more on the immediate i.e. having been knocked out than having to rescue Akane it's pretty easy to see why he'd think that. Those were his more immediate thoughts, where as her helping him happened earlier and could have been overshadowed in his mind by the latter events.

[claymade]

Not really. His pride and Ego didn't have to overwhelm him. If he was dwelling more on the immediate i.e. having been knocked out than having to rescue Akane it's pretty easy to see why he'd think that. Those were his more immediate thoughts, where as her helping him happened earlier and could have been overshadowed in his mind by the latter events.

*chuckles* Are you really so determined to find a way to exonerate Ranma of both lying and egotism that you'll give him the attention span of a goldfish to do it?

Anyway, it doesn't fly. If Ranma's going to make an insulting appraisal about his partner's performance in a match he'd bloody well better be bothered to at least remember the whole thing before making his snide remarks. Being so prideful that he didn't even bother to recall the whole fight before making cutting comments about Akane's performance in it would show a staggering amount of egotism itself.

Besides, even after Akane reminds him of what bad shape he was in, he persists in maintaining that he "had everything under control." He's either lying through his teeth, or utterly deluding himself--an ugly display of ego either way.

[antimatterenergy]

I'm arguing about whether he thought of Akane as being a hindrance. I believe he thought of her more of a hindrance than a help. Whether she was or wasn't doesn't really matter for my argument only on how Ranma perceived it. I also didn't say Ranma forgot about her help only that the other events may have over shadowed her being helpful in his mind. Memory works that way occasionally. He may remember the help but the other events overshadow (i.e. exceed it in importance) in his mind.

Your arguing that it was his ego and pride that totally led to those comments, I am arguing that even though he does have an ego and is prideful it may not have been that alone which led to those comments and that those comments were not totally uncalled for depending on how he perceived it.

[claymade]

Think about it for a second. What does this nice, generic, "over shadowed" actually entail? What kind of beliefs actually have to be in place in order to make this supposed overshadowing even possible?

Ranma: "Well, okay... I might have been on my hands and knees, acknowledging to myself that it was no use... But ignore that! Even though I had no ideas whatsoever, I still know for a fact that I would have actually come up with something in time to win. And what's more, I know for a fact that this hypothetical idea that I would have come up with--whatever it would have been--would automatically have to have been better than what dumb old Akane did to help!"

That is what he believes, if it's actually true that he A) hadn't completely forgotten his despair of a few minutes previous, and B) he honestly does "perceive" Akane as having been a hindrance overall.

And a rawer display of egotism you're not likely to find.

Not to mention the point that I've raised twice before--which you haven't responded to yet. Namely, how do you interpret the claim that he "had everything under control" as anything other than a bald-faced lie? You don't even have the excuse of overshadowing there--he's making a factual claim about his own performance in the fight, one that even a cursory glance through his memory would have shown to be completely bogus.

[antimatterenergy]

Namely, how do you interpret the claim that he "had everything under control" as anything other than a bald-faced lie?

I wasn't arguing that part I was arguing as to whether Ranma saw her as being more of a hindrance rather than being helpful. Ranma could of seen her as being more of a bother than a help. To him being knocked out than having to rescue Akane could out weigh the help that she gave. A possible belief that he could have that would also work would be if she didn't interfere I wouldn't have been knocked out. Of course there are other possible ways like he forgot it when he was knocked in the head or he's dwelling on the pain from the hit which makes the help she gave seem useless, etc... Really we can't know because we don't know what Ranma was thinking about.

The entire reason I started arguing about this at all is because of this line

make it sound like she was actually slowing him down and hindering him.

I see Akane as having both helped (in giving him a possible way to win) and hindered him (causing him to be distracted in the battle and being knocked out). Even though Ranma was not completely justified in his statement's it could be somewhat justified in his mind provided that her help is outweighed by the problems that she brought/created. I'm not arguing that Ranma doesn't lie (he does) or that Ranma is not prideful (look at the reversal jewel arc or kodachi date arc to clearly see that), I'm saying that in that instance Ranma could honestly have seen Akane as having caused more problems than she solved.

[claymade]

I wasn't arguing that part...

So then, we agree that whatever he believed about his immediately preceding statement, he was willing to lie through his teeth to make it look like he didn't need Akane's help--with practically his very next breath.

Consequently, I don't quite see the justification for invoking all these elaborate machinations--devoid of any in-plot evidence that they actually happened--to give Ranma an excuse for something he very clearly does just a couple seconds later, anyway.

The entire reason I started arguing about this at all is because of this line

make it sound like she was actually slowing him down and hindering him.

Just to clarify--what I meant by that was, more precisely, that he made it sound like she was slowing him down and hindering him overall. That's what I find to be utterly absurd of him to say.

I'm saying that in that instance Ranma could honestly have seen Akane as having caused more problems than she solved.

As I mentioned in my very first response to you: I'll grant that this is theoretically possible (although I find it extremely unconvincing as an interpretation, as I said above).

But even then, if he does honestly see Akane as making it harder for him to win, that means he automatically assumes both that he would necessarily have found a way to win by himself--and that whatever his way ended up being, it would automatically have to have been easier than her help. That kind of utter superiority complex is what I meant by "his pride and ego have overwhelmed him to a quite ugly extent."

(Unless you want to play the "evidence-less selective amnesia" card--but that's even more of a cop-out.)

[FriendlyEL]

I agree with claymade that if you do look in the context of the story where Ranma himself was admitting that he was screwed before Akane helped, Akane was definitely doing the right thing, and even using the "it didn't help him since he got knocked out" arguement it was pride that caused him to get so distracted and need to deny the whole "they love each other" thing from the audience. Seems to me that pride is a big problem of his either way, which is the argument here. Sometimes you just have to accept that it happened because Takashi said so, ladies and gents.

But either way, this seems more like something that should be on the "How bad is Ranma" forum. We're talking about the flaws of all the other characters here, too. But I was thinking to myself before, in some ways would you say Kasumi has some bit of sloth in her, which is the reason she lets the household go to hell like she does?

I was also just wondering exactly how much wrath really applies to Happosai from other people as well.

[Zwzn]

I agree with claymade that if you do look in the context of the story where Ranma himself was admitting that he was screwed before Akane helped, Akane was definitely doing the right thing, and even using the "it didn't help him since he got knocked out" arguement it was pride that caused him to get so distracted and need to deny the whole "they love each other" thing from the audience. Seems to me that pride is a big problem of his either way, which is the argument here. Sometimes you just have to accept that it happened because Takashi said so, ladies and gents.

Doesn't Ranma at earlier points in the manga tell Akane not to interfere with his "man to man fights"?

Could it be that he is just ticed she interfered in one of his "man to man fights"?

Akane seems to me to need to meddle where she is not wanted and or needed because of pride alot.

[FriendlyEL]

I never said Akane did not have problems with pride herself if that's what you were asking. I'd say she's in many ways just as bad as Ranma if not worse.

It is quite clear that in the first manga she cannot stand the idea of someone being a better martial artist than she is, specifically boys, which is part of the reason I think she had such a hard time accepting Ranma at first. I think that if there was one thing she'd love to have back more than anything it's the old title of number one fighter in Nerinma, which is why she seems to let herself go so bad anytime she has a powerup and even accept it as her own power if that's what it takes to be a match for Ranma or Shampoo.

[Zwzn]

I never said Akane did not have problems with pride herself if that's what you were asking. I'd say she's in many ways just as bad as Ranma if not worse.

It is quite clear that in the first manga she cannot stand the idea of someone being a better martial artist than she is, specifically boys, which is part of the reason I think she had such a hard time accepting Ranma at first. I think that if there was one thing she'd love to have back more than anything it's the old title of number one fighter in Nerinma, which is why she seems to let herself go so bad anytime she has a powerup and even accept it as her own power if that's what it takes to be a match for Ranma or Shampoo.

What I was getting at was that Ranma might have not really ment what he said. He might have really been tic that she got involved in his man to man fight. I recall him telling her to stay out of them early in the manga, but she disregards his feels on the matter more then once as I recall. Ranma seems to wants his "man to man fights" to be his wins or loses to me.

[three headed dog]

He might have really been tic that she got involved in his man to man fight.

I know what you mean i.e. didn't want her getting in his fights, but that was not in any way a man to man fight. It was a fight between two girls that even involved winning the love of a man.