ranma's pet

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

With blinded by revenge, I mean he is not thinking about anything else and therefore unable to make any conclusions.

You forgot to add the smily faces, right?

Yeah, it was a joke. But his last experience with the panda taught him that it was better to stop animals than to avoid them. And an experience like that could change his previous opinion on how to deal with animals.

and was not paying attention to his surroundings before hand.

What makes you think that? The way he turned around when he heard a sound from behind?

It would be rather humorous if it was a case of Ryoga getting lost as he fell to the ground, and ended up on a cliff above the springs.

And what makes you think there was a gap between the collision with Ranma and Ryoga falling down the cliff?

[Zwzn]

With blinded by revenge, I mean he is not thinking about anything else and therefore unable to make any conclusions.

More reason for him to think Ranma was the girl in the first place when he sees Ranma change for the first time.

More reason to think Ranma and Genma were the girl and panda when he finds them at the Tendo Dojo.

The odds are just to small for Ranma and Genma not to be the people who knocked him in, and getting knocked into the spring was the reason for his revenge quest. The fact it took him days to remember the reason for his revenge makes his story suspect.

Yeah, it was a joke. But his last experience with the panda taught him that it was better to stop animals than to avoid them. And an experience like that could change his previous opinion on how to deal with animals.

Given the way his family get lost, Ryoga has been pretty much living on his own for years, and the calm way he dealt with the boar makes it look like he had been in similar situations before.

I can think of a reason or few that jumping over a charging animal would be a bad idea.

What makes you think that? The way he turned around when he heard a sound from behind?

Ryoga is often not paying attention, and that is why he breaks stuff sometimes for example, and you already gave a reason Ryoga would be distracted, revenge/anger. You have to be very angry to try to hunt someone down when they leave the country, and will likely be back.

And what makes you think there was a gap between the collision with Ranma and Ryoga falling down the cliff?

There is time between hitting Ranma's knee, and falling off the cliff no matter how you look at it. If Ryoga got lost that cliff might be miles from where he got kneed by Ranma assuming Ryoga didn't just make the meeting up.

Ryoga seems to walk from one island of Japan to another, and the mushrooms of aging story seems like it might imply he has walked to Africa, and at no time does Ryoga seem to cross large bodies of water. He appears to teleport without realizing it, or warps space and time to make distances shorter.

http://ranmarelated.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... sense.html

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

You say "More reason for him to think about it." I say "But he is not thinking about it."

Given the way his family get lost, Ryoga has been pretty much living on his own for years, and the calm way he dealt with the boar makes it look like he had been in similar situations before.

Ryoga wasn't carrying his umbrella at that time. He must have bought it after he got cursed and then he decided to deal with wild animals that way.

Ryoga is often not paying attention, and that is why he breaks stuff sometimes for example, and you already gave a reason Ryoga would be distracted, revenge/anger. You have to be very angry to try to hunt someone down when they leave the country, and will likely be back.

So he is distracted all the time? No wonder he gets lost.

There is time between hitting Ranma's knee, and falling off the cliff no matter how you look at it. If Ryoga got lost that cliff might be miles from where he got kneed by Ranma assuming Ryoga didn't just make the meeting up.

And what makes you think something happened between the panel of Ryoga getting hit and the panel of Ryoga falling down? Why would the artist leave out a funny little scene of Ryoga wandering around in a daze?

It would be amazing if Ryoga could make up a believable story just like that. For example, how did he know that Ranma chased Genma after being cursed? Why did he add the part of the panda trying to eat him, when Ranma could easily check that with his father?

[Crescent Pulsar R]

Well, there is your mistake. Ryoga jumped upward in a direction where he didn't have to expect an obstacle. Ranma jumped forward in a forested area where he had to expect obstacles and couldn't see very far. It's like driving at night at full speed without turning the lights on.

You just don't get it, do you? Well, there's no hope for it, then. Can't say I didn't try.

And another mistake. Extenuating circumstances led to diminished sentences, not acquittals.

That's if the verdict itself is extenuating circumstances, which assumes that Ranma is guilty. However, if there's far too much to give a guilty charge, Ranma walks free. And Ranma would, because there are too many things that clearly show that he had little to no control over the situation. One, because of the state of mind that Genma put him in; two, because he couldn't have seen Ryoga with the last act that set them both on a collision course; and three, Ryoga chose to walk by a cliff.

But your "all things being equal" does not apply. "Walking at a normal pace along a cliffside", and "running at a breakneck pace along it without looking where you are going", are fundamentally non-equivalent things. They do not, by any stretch of the imagination, impart the same degree of risk to others that may be nearby. What Ranma was doing was dangerous to any bystanders; what Ryouga was doing wasn't.

So why on earth should we view those two actions as being equal, in respect to assigning responsibility for when the dangerous event actually occurred?

You're kidding, right? For one, you're comparing actions that are out of sequence: Ranma did not run into Ryoga while he's walking alongside the cliff, they both ran into each other while they were in the air. Regardless, Ryoga is personally responsible for deciding to walk so close to a cliff, regardless of how much he or others see the risk as being: because the risk is there. You know, it's something a parent is known to warn children about, concerning getting "too close" to something. A cliff is a potential danger no matter how you slice it, and Ryoga took that risk and, thus, that part of the responsibility. It has nothing to do with walking or running along it, because he could have stepped on a weak portion of it and fell without any outside "help." And it has nothing to do with bystanders, because it raises his own chances of personal risk. If that weren't the case, and Ryoga hadn't chosen to walk alongside a cliff, this topic wouldn't even exist. Thus, Ryoga shares the blame with Ranma, because all that Ranma could have done by himself, otherwise, was simply to bump Ryoga out of the way, as he had no control over where Ryoga was at the time. And considering the area, Ranma running around recklessly like that can not be seen as a risk to bystanders, considering its remote location and how we never see any more than a handful of people in the area at one time; and that handful was only at the end of the manga, to boot.

The reason why your reasoning doesn't work is because it ignores just about everything of significance. It's very lazy, at best. At worst...

You're... seriously saying that if you do something because you're enraged, it's no longer your fault anymore--it's the fault of whoever made you angry?

Holy crap, just think of everything we could excuse that way!

What Wyrd said.

And if you read the manga, it's quite clear that Ranma is not easily made angry and, if he is, not that angry. He's got a long fuse for a lot of things, but his pride is not one of them; especially in regard to his male pride. Consider Ranma's fight with Ryoga, when the latter said that the former was acting like a girl, or whenever Taro insulted him: little to no tolerance, and his rational judgment suffers for it. So it's easy to see why the very thing that changes him into a girl, that first time, would send him out of his mind with rage.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

You just don't get it, do you? Well, there's no hope for it, then. Can't say I didn't try.

I could say the same. But you wouldn't listen.

That's if the verdict itself is extenuating circumstances, which assumes that Ranma is guilty.

A verdict is either guilty or not guilty. The length of the sentence can be shortened by extenuating circumstances. Don't try to talk about things you don't know anything about. Or at least research their basic terms before you do.

However, if there's far too much to give a guilty charge,

Just to emphasize, this can not happen. There are cases when extenuating circumstances lead to the shortest sentence possible, but the verdict would still be guilty.

One, because of the state of mind that Genma put him in; two, because he couldn't have seen Ryoga with the last act that set them both on a collision course; and three, Ryoga chose to walk by a cliff.

One is an extenuating circumstance that would shorten the sentence, but - just to repeat - the verdict would still be guilty.
Two is only an extenuating circumstance if he moves at a speed adjusted to the area with diminished visibility. A speed that would allow him to avoid collisions.
Three is not an extenuating circumstance. If a person walks in a dangerous area, no one is allowed to endanger that person even more. (Except for rare circumstances, e.g. said person endangers a third person.)

[Zwzn]

You say "More reason for him to think about it." I say "But he is not thinking about it."

Ryoga's whole reason for wanting revenge was for being knocked into the spring. He would be constantly thinking about the girl and panda. For him to not pin it on Ranma earlier makes no sense.

So he is distracted all the time? No wonder he gets lost.

The Panda was making no effort to be stealthy, and he did notice it until it was almost literally on top of him, and the same can be said about the boar. He seems to get "lost" in thought a lot.

And what makes you think something happened between the panel of Ryoga getting hit and the panel of Ryoga falling down? Why would the artist leave out a funny little scene of Ryoga wandering around in a daze?

This Ryoga we are talking about, he gets lost not because he takes a left when he should have taken a right, but because he teleports, or warps space and time.

It would be amazing if Ryoga could make up a believable story just like that.

Ryoga is a cowardly, lying, backstabbing, wannabe rapist, and murder, but he is not stupid, and had days to work things out. He had already tried to saying Ranma ran away rather then duel him.

Ryoga had already lied about Ranma running away rather then duel him

For example, how did he know that Ranma chased Genma after being cursed?

It would not be hard to believe Ryoga saw, heard about the chase, or was just making stuff up.

Why did he add the part of the panda trying to eat him, when Ranma could easily check that with his father?

He knew full well the panda was there from when he snuck into the room Ranma was sleeping in, and mixing truth and lie are some of the best ways to make something believable. We are never shown confirmation Genma nearly ran him over.

Ryoga wasn't carrying his umbrella at that time. He must have bought it after he got cursed and then he decided to deal with wild animals that way.

Why would Ryoga need a weapon to take on a charging wild animal?

And if you read the manga, it's quite clear that Ranma is not easily made angry and, if he is, not that angry. He's got a long fuse for a lot of things, but his pride is not one of them; especially in regard to his male pride. Consider Ranma's fight with Ryoga, when the latter said that the former was acting like a girl, or whenever Taro insulted him: little to no tolerance, and his rational judgment suffers for it. So it's easy to see why the very thing that changes him into a girl, that first time, would send him out of his mind with rage.

Confidence and pride are things I've always seen Ranma as lacking. If he had reasonable amounts, or to much of either one he wouldn't put up with the crap he does.

Ranma had some very good reason excluding pride to what to kill Genma. Genma got cursed, and then recklessly knocked Ranma in. Genma knew what would happen, and did it anyway.

[Makoto]

I'll go on record here that I didn't want to get involved in this argument, but... oh, well.

He had already tried to saying Ranma ran away rather then duel him.

Ryoga had already lied about Ranma running away rather then duel him

Lied? That's his opinion, what Ryouga believes. Completely, even given that he's apparently willing to accept Ranma waited three days for him.

You've never been involved in or paid attention to fights at school? Say someone challenges you to a fight, and you don't show up. Afterward, they'll probably spread word that you 'chickened out.'

That's basically what Ryouga's doing. Ranma wasn't there when he arrived, regardless of the day, to fight/duel man-to-man/whatever - so naturally, Ryouga claims Ranma ran away from the duel.

Ryouga's also doing it to insult/goad Ranma, of course.

[claymade]

Regardless, Ryoga is personally responsible for deciding to walk so close to a cliff, regardless of how much he or others see the risk as being: because the risk is there. You know, it's something a parent is known to warn children about, concerning getting "too close" to something. A cliff is a potential danger no matter how you slice it, and Ryoga took that risk and, thus, that part of the responsibility. It has nothing to do with walking or running along it, because he could have stepped on a weak portion of it and fell without any outside "help." And it has nothing to do with bystanders, because it raises his own chances of personal risk. If that weren't the case, and Ryoga hadn't chosen to walk alongside a cliff, this topic wouldn't even exist. Thus, Ryoga shares the blame with Ranma, because all that Ranma could have done by himself, otherwise, was simply to bump Ryoga out of the way, as he had no control over where Ryoga was at the time.

That's like saying if two people were filling up their car at a gas station, and Person A was just filling it up normally, and Person B was smoking while he filled it up, and the gas station exploded, that Person A would be at equal fault for his own death with Person B. Because gas stations have dangers, and Person B wouldn't have done the slightest bit of harm to Person A if Person A hadn't chosen, of his own free will, to be in that place.

Both gas stations and cliff sides have potential dangers, obviously. That is, as a matter of fact, why you don't do stupid things around them, like "running really fast without paying attention to your surroundings" or "lighting cigarettes". Treated with a modicum of caution, neither situation is all that dangerous--heck, I've walked along cliffs--but throw a reckless person into the situation and all that changes drastically.

As you say, Ranma bumping into Ryouga would be mostly harmless outside of the context of the cliff--just like how Person B lighting a cigarette near Person A would be mostly harmless outside the context of a gas station. But the fact of the matter is, each of those actions become very reckless in the context that they were actually performed in.

And I can't comprehend how you can say that the person who was not behaving recklessly bears the same responsibility for what happened as the person who was doing something extremely reckless.

Since the question is whether "it's okay to do dangerous things as long as it's in the wilderness, because no one else 'should' be there", probably the closest analogy I can think of would be to hunting accidents.

@claymade: That would be a nice analogy if that had indeed been the question. But it wasn't.

And considering the area, Ranma running around recklessly like that can not be seen as a risk to bystanders, considering its remote location and how we never see any more than a handful of people in the area at one time...

*coughs* So is it the question now? (And is it still a "nice analogy"? )

This is actually a legitimate defense in American courts of law, though it is very hard to win with it. You have to convince the judge and jury that not only were you driven beyond reason by events, but that you had legitimate cause to be in this state and that you are not likely to enter such a state under normal circumstances(otherwise you are declaring yourself to be a danger to others and yourself). Ten minutes of talking to Genma would shift most people's opinions to blaming him instead...

If you're going by American federal law, you can only argue the insanity defense if you can prove that you were unable to discern right from wrong in that situation due to "a severe mental disease or defect". Now I don't know about you, but I kinda doubt that "I was really angry at the time" constitutes "a severe mental disease or defect".

(see Federal Insanity Defense Reform Act, codified at 18 U.S.C. s. 17)

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

This Ryoga we are talking about, he gets lost not because he takes a left when he should have taken a right, but because he teleports, or warps space and time.

And now you are directly using fanon. Show me an example when he inarguably teleported.

And guess what? Even if he was cursed to teleport around, we could still blame Ranma for him falling down the cliff. Ranma's action send Ryoga in that direction, he was involuntary teleported and ended up over Jusenkyo. Ryoga had at no point the opportunity to influence his destination, making the accident with Ranma the direct cause for his Jusenkyo curse.

He knew full well the panda was there from when he snuck into the room Ranma was sleeping in, and mixing truth and lie are some of the best ways to make something believable. We are never shown confirmation Genma nearly ran him over.

I asked about the seond part of his story. The part that's more memorable for Genma, when a man turned panda saw a piglet turning into a boy. Why would Ryoga tell a lie that can be easily checked? Why would he think that Ranma would not ask his father about it?

Why would Ryoga need a weapon to take on a charging wild animal?

I never said he needed it. He got it and decided to use it to deal with animals.

Confidence and pride are things I've always seen Ranma as lacking. If he had reasonable amounts, or to much of either one he wouldn't put up with the crap he does.

Ranma has got an energy attack powered by his pride. The Moko Takabisha. He chose pride because it was his strongest emotion.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Actually, just to point out, Ranma's ki blast is powered by confidence, not pride - in the Viz manga, he says it's powered by self esteem, while in the anime... as far as I can recall, Ranma never admits what emotion it is he's using to power it, by Genma comments that he can feel Ranma's ki building as his confidence grows when Ranma figures out how to create his own spin on the Shishi Hokodan. The Moko Takabisha means "Pride of the Fierce Tiger", it's not actually fuelled by pride.

[claymade]

Actually, just to point out, Ranma's ki blast is powered by confidence, not pride - in the Viz manga, he says it's powered by self esteem, while in the anime... as far as I can recall, Ranma never admits what emotion it is he's using to power it, by Genma comments that he can feel Ranma's ki building as his confidence grows when Ranma figures out how to create his own spin on the Shishi Hokodan. The Moko Takabisha means "Pride of the Fierce Tiger", it's not actually fuelled by pride.

Ranma might phrase it as "self esteem", but If it's a question of whose wording to use, I think the narrator's version would be the most unbiased. From the first Hinako arc:

"The Arrogant Tiger is an insolent attack... in which an assertive aura is blasted forth by a powderkeg of sheer arrogance!!"

[Wyrd]

If you're going by American federal law, you can only argue the insanity defense if you can prove that you were unable to discern right from wrong in that situation due to "a severe mental disease or defect". Now I don't know about you, but I kinda doubt that "I was really angry at the time" constitutes "a severe mental disease or defect".

Having Genma as a father probably qualifies as "a severe mental disease or defect" by itself. I'm referring more to the 'temporary insanity' defense, though, which has been used successfully when the source of the temporary insanity was anger that was 'provoked beyond all reason'(I believe that was the wording of the defense, it's been a long time since I read about this one).

Ranma has got an energy attack powered by his pride. The Moko Takabisha. He chose pride because it was his strongest emotion.

The only time Ranma seems actually confident instead of overcompensating for his lack thereof is during combat, the one time when he actually has reason to be confident and has had the idea that he must remain confident in order to win pounded into his head since he learned how to talk.

I reiterate that Ryouga is known for exaggeration and self-deception; since he seems to actually believe whatever insane interpretation of events he is currently spouting, he isn't lying, or to be more accurate, he is lying to himself first. As such, anything he recounts has to be taken with a rather large grain of salt.

Depending on how you interpret the image, Ryouga could have jumped after Ranma jumped. This would mean that Ryouga ran into Ranma, not the other way around, and would put all of the blame on Ryouga. If a car pulls out of a side street and clips the back of another car that is passing because they did not leave enough room, and loses control sending them into a ditch, the blame is on the second car, even if the first car was speeding or drove off without even noticing that they got dinged. Does anyone know what episode of the anime this scene is in? I'd like to see how it is animated, though I consider the manga and anime to be different enough to be separate continuities, it would still be interesting to add that in to the discussion.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

Depending on how you interpret the image, Ryouga could have jumped after Ranma jumped. This would mean that Ryouga ran into Ranma, not the other way around, and would put all of the blame on Ryouga. If a car pulls out of a side street and clips the back of another car that is passing because they did not leave enough room, and loses control sending them into a ditch, the blame is on the second car, even if the first car was speeding or drove off without even noticing that they got dinged.

The problem with your metaphor is that Ryoga didn't move into an area where he had to expect traffic, he jumped up into the air. Even in Nerima you don't see roof-hopping every day. It's more like he left the street and drove onto a field with fully-grown maize. And was promptly hit by a car already racing through that field.

[Zwzn]

And now you are directly using fanon. Show me an example when he inarguably teleported.

There are a number of times Ryoga ends up on the wrong island, and seems to walk from island to island.

16.01-16.07 14.05-14.11 Screaming Hot Springs Festival Obstacle Course Race.
He seems to end up in random seeming places that make no sense even with Ukyo as his partner in a three legged race.

33.03-33.05 31.03-31.05 Mushrooms of time
Ryoga seems to possibly travel to Africa, and the map he drew seems to imply distances for him are not the same as for everyone else.

And guess what? Even if he was cursed to teleport around, we could still blame Ranma for him falling down the cliff. Ranma's action send Ryoga in that direction, he was involuntary teleported and ended up over Jusenkyo. Ryoga had at no point the opportunity to influence his destination, making the accident with Ranma the direct cause for his Jusenkyo curse.

You can't hold someone responsible for something beyond their control.

It was Ryoga who jumped into Ranma's way, and it was Ryoga who did not look before he leapt. Ranma was well on his way to the ground when Ryoga hit him.

Why did he add the part of the panda trying to eat him, when Ranma could easily check that with his father?

He knew full well the panda was there from when he snuck into the room Ranma was sleeping in, and mixing truth and lie are some of the best ways to make something believable. We are never shown confirmation Genma nearly ran him over.

I asked about the seond part of his story. The part that's more memorable for Genma, when a man turned panda saw a piglet turning into a boy. Why would Ryoga tell a lie that can be easily checked? Why would he think that Ranma would not ask his father about it?

I already answered this. Ryoga knew the Panda that tried to eat him was there, and it would add creditability to his story.

Given the way his family get lost, Ryoga has been pretty much living on his own for years, and the calm way he dealt with the boar makes it look like he had been in similar situations before.

Ryoga wasn't carrying his umbrella at that time. He must have bought it after he got cursed and then he decided to deal with wild animals that way.

Why would Ryoga need a weapon to take on a charging wild animal?

I never said he needed it. He got it and decided to use it to deal with animals.

You claimed Ryoga needed his umbrella to fight animals.

Why does Ryoga need a weapon to take down a panda? Jumping over the panda will not solve the problem because either something is chasing the panda, or the panda is attacking for a reason.

Ranma has got an energy attack powered by his pride. The Moko Takabisha. He chose pride because it was his strongest emotion.

Ranma does not use pride.

Ranma has a Ki blast for every emotion he could possibly identify, and then some. Confidence based blasts just happen to do what he wants them to do, and Ranma is only really confident in martial arts, and that confidence is not excessive.

Ranma might phrase it as "self esteem", but If it's a question of whose wording to use, I think the narrator's version would be the most unbiased. From the first Hinako arc:

"The Arrogant Tiger is an insolent attack... in which an assertive aura is blasted forth by a powderkeg of sheer arrogance!!"

You do realize that what Ranma calls the attack has no relivence on what it does, or how it works?

What volume is that quote from?

Lied? That's his opinion, what Ryouga believes. Completely, even given that he's apparently willing to accept Ranma waited three days for him.

You've never been involved in or paid attention to fights at school? Say someone challenges you to a fight, and you don't show up. Afterward, they'll probably spread word that you 'chickened out.'

That's basically what Ryouga's doing. Ranma wasn't there when he arrived, regardless of the day, to fight/duel man-to-man/whatever - so naturally, Ryouga claims Ranma ran away from the duel.

Ryouga's also doing it to insult/goad Ranma, of course.

I don't recall Ryoga actually believing what he was saying.

The problem with your metaphor is that Ryoga didn't move into an area where he had to expect traffic, he jumped up into the air. Even in Nerima you don't see roof-hopping every day. It's more like he left the street and drove onto a field with fully-grown maize. And was promptly hit by a car already racing through that field.

If Ryoga had looked before he leapt he would have seen Ranma coming down, but Ryoga just jumped. Ranma would have likely been in clear view. Ranma had to have jumped, and cleared the bamboo before Ryoga jumped. Ryoga also had good reason to think there was something behind the panda that was dangerous.

[SpaceKnight of Chaos]

Not that it really means anything, particularly as it only happens in the anime, but, in the last episode of the first season (episode 18 "I am a man! Ranma's going back to China?"), Ranma repeats Ryoga's story exactly as Ryoga told it to him while fighting his father. After Ranma describes how Ryoga claims a panda picked him out of the Spring of Drowned Pig and carried him off to the guide's hut, where he was promptly boiled alive, Genma looks thoughtful and comments that's not what he remembers happening.

Of course, as this is Genma we're talking about, and as Ranma himself leaps to the conclusion that Genma is just going to lie and cover his own ass in the episode, it probably doesn't mean much.

Oh, and Wyrd? The episode is season 1, episode ten: P-P-P-chan! He's good for nothing! I basically described exactly how it happened in that medium in the second post to this topic, though, so I don't know if there's really anything to discuss about it.