Ranma's Mech?

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Postby FOG3 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:10 pm

Jomasten wrote:I've yet to find any specifics on the Kampfer

MAHQ profile. About as good as Youtube has of its run in 0080. Note the chain mine is just something it picked up, not really part of its normal armament.

Normal armament consists of a MS shotgun mounted horizontally at the back of the waist or small of the back. A pair of 360mm bazookas are mounted vertically on each shoulder. A MS Panzerfaust is mounted on the outside of each leg. A beam saber is mounted in each leg about hip height, and it has head Vulcans to shoot up the light stuff. It can use beam weapons in the MS-18F version, which given the presence of beam sabers is probably more clerical then engineering iin nature. The 0080 version starts out carrying a MS shotgun.

It's capable of 2.03G maximum thrust while most Mobile Suits of the One Year War era are good if they're doing around 1G. Even by 0093 the standard Federation and Zeon Mobile Suits are doing only 1.03 and 1.06 respectively despite largely abandoning armor due to its ineffectiveness verse beam weapons. Even Ace suits like the Nu Gundam and the Sazabi are only doing 1.55G and 1.87G respectively. To be fair [url=http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/0080/rx-78nt-1.htm]Alex has some of the best stats in this regard.

This is why the MS-18E/F Kampfer remains a highly viable design for so long even with the high turn over in Mobile Suit design. The missiles remain perfectly adequate to take out any mass produced mobile suit, as to a large extent are the shotguns. With beam sabers and the ability to upgrade to use beam rifles it can at least in theory kill anything in the Gundam universe. It needs to use its ability to zip around however as it simply lacks to brute power or armor to be duking it out. The skill required to use one of these effectively is a higher level of dodging and overall skill then the normal pilot in the UC Gundam universe possesses, hence the design of the mass produced suits.

I would remind people also that funnels are not the end all and be all of the Gundam universe. The original Gundam took down a unit with with vastly more funnels then is standard by 0093 with nothing more then a beam rifle and a beam saber.
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Postby lwf58 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:36 pm

FOG3 wrote:Note the chain mine is just something it picked up, not really part of its normal armament.


It's a specialist weapon, but it was there in the first place because the Zion commandos intended for the Kampfer to use it. It wasn't just lying around, it was in one of their equipment trucks.

Normal armament consists of a MS shotgun mounted horizontally at the back of the waist or small of the back. A pair of 360mm bazookas are mounted vertically on each shoulder. A MS Panzerfaust is mounted on the outside of each leg. A beam saber is mounted in each leg about hip height, and it has head Vulcans to shoot up the light stuff. It can use beam weapons in the MS-18F version, which given the presence of beam sabers is probably more clerical then engineering iin nature. The 0080 version starts out carrying a MS shotgun.


Something to be noted is that both War in the Pocket and 8th MS Team feature mobile suits that are far too advanced for the One Year War. Most Zion mecha of the time did not have beam weaponry, much less beam sabers. Because the two series were made many years after the original, the production companies lost track of technological continuity.

Of course, that means nothing to this topic since it is just talking about a suitable mech for Ranma.

Mobile Suits are doing only 1.03 and 1.06 respectively despite largely abandoning armor due to its ineffectiveness verse beam weapons.


"???"

They never abandoned armor on Mobile Suits, and it wasn't ineffective versus beam weapons. Megaparticle beams cut through most armors pretty rapidly, yes, but even a few seconds of time bought that way could be the difference between life and death for the pilot. All of the suits right up to the latest One Year War based series are armored. The only exception was Char's Hyaku Shiki, which had minimal armor to increase its maneuverability. He thought at the time that not being where the shot was heading was more important than armor. But he was one of only a very few pilots that could sense the intent of an enemy to shoot and get out of the way.

This is why the MS-18E/F Kampfer remains a highly viable design for so long even with the high turn over in Mobile Suit design. The missiles remain perfectly adequate to take out any mass produced mobile suit, as to a large extent are the shotguns. With beam sabers and the ability to upgrade to use beam rifles it can at least in theory kill anything in the Gundam universe. It needs to use its ability to zip around however as it simply lacks to brute power or armor to be duking it out. The skill required to use one of these effectively is a higher level of dodging and overall skill then the normal pilot in the UC Gundam universe possesses, hence the design of the mass produced suits.


Not exactly. The Kampfer was designed for the Zion Commandos. It wasn't a mass production model because it was too specialized in what it was designed to do.

That's true of all of the other one-shot mobile suits as well. Most of them were either designed to complement a certain pilot's fighting style, or were prototypes meant to field test a weapon system, control system, or chassis. Mobile Armors were also rarely mass-produced because they were either designed for one job or a certain pilot, or were too complex to crank out in numbers. The RX-78 Gundam was one of three prototypes built to test certain ideas the Federation had for mobile suits designed to face Zion's Zaku. The success of the Gundam resulted in the GM, which was the Gundam simplified and pared down to just the essentials so that it could be mass produced.

I would remind people also that funnels are not the end all and be all of the Gundam universe. The original Gundam took down a unit with with vastly more funnels then is standard by 0093 with nothing more then a beam rifle and a beam saber.


...And a newtype pilot, Amuro Rei.

The usual result of putting a squadron of normal pilots in mobile suits in the way of a newtype with funnels was the death of the entire squadron of normals. There's a darned good reason why most mobile suits and mobile armors designed for use by newtypes had funnels by the time of Char's Counterattack.

Getting back on topic, I don't think Gundam is the right series to shop for a mech for Ranma Saotome. None of them really fit very well. The Kampfer is too clunky, and isn't designed for aerial combat.

If the mech has to be from Gundam (say, because the crossover is set in that universe), then a suit like Zeta Gundam would be a better choice to match Ranma's style. It's relatively light and quick to respond, can switch back and forth from air to ground modes, and is fairly agile.

If I were to choose a series to pick a mech for Ranma from, I'd probably go with Macross. Valkyries were able to pull off credible martial arts moves in the hands of a talented pilot, such as the shoulder roll seen in the opening credits of every episode. Add to that the kind of moves Max Genius regularly used in combat, and Valkyries look more like mecha that Ranma would be attracted to.
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Postby FOG3 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:45 pm

lwf58 wrote:It's a specialist weapon, but it was there in the first place because the Zion commandos intended for the Kampfer to use it. It wasn't just lying around, it was in one of their equipment trucks.
Yes, but it wasn't mounted on a hardpoint despite the short run it was doing. The youtube video clearly demonstrates the Kampfer reaching into the truck, I think the how and why of that is obvious enough. The MAHQ profile does not show it kitted out and always lists the chain mine, clarification is necessary on that point.

lwf58 wrote:Something to be noted is that both War in the Pocket and 8th MS Team feature mobile suits that are far too advanced for the One Year War. Most Zion mecha of the time did not have beam weaponry, much less beam sabers. Because the two series were made many years after the original, the production companies lost track of technological continuity.
The One Year War started in 0079, by the end of the war by which Zeon is producing the MS-14 Geloog and indeed has it fielded by 31 December 0079 when the war closes in large numbers, ref. MAHQ profile. So exactly how is a limited production MS-18E Kampfer, almost assuredly developped after the Geloog has already entered mass production enough for 165 MS-14A and 30 MS-14S units to have been produced, a continuity problem? War in the Pocket is only a week or so out from the close of the war.

lwf58 wrote:They never abandoned armor on Mobile Suits, and it wasn't ineffective versus beam weapons. Megaparticle beams cut through most armors pretty rapidly, yes, but even a few seconds of time bought that way could be the difference between life and death for the pilot. All of the suits right up to the latest One Year War based series are armored. The only exception was Char's Hyaku Shiki, which had minimal armor to increase its maneuverability. He thought at the time that not being where the shot was heading was more important than armor. But he was one of only a very few pilots that could sense the intent of an enemy to shoot and get out of the way.
I am almost sure one of the various references lays it out that the emphasis went away from armor, except the shields because of beam weaponry following the One Year War.

The fact the Jegan weighs 21.3 tons to 43.7 tons verse the original GM's 41.2 tons to 58.8 tons is evidence enough that was the trend. I will concede I should have phrased that de-emphasized armor in favor of mobility, but you must admit a almost 50% drop in dry weight means dropping armor and robot part capability significantly enough largely done away with isn't that inaccurate.

lwf58 wrote:Not exactly. The Kampfer was designed for the Zion Commandos. It wasn't a mass production model because it was too specialized in what it was designed to do.
It's a limited production model, not one of the one shot suits just like real life specialized commando gear. It got used in a lot of other material. Unless you have something that nullifies the canon status of those sources it served in various units including the AEUG and even pirates well after the One Year War.

lwf58 wrote:...And a newtype pilot, Amuro Rei.
You want to give him the vote of no confidence on that then put him in the Z, which is going to be going up against the excessive firepower they were throwing around before the depletion of forces proceeding 0093? Are you forgetting the mass produced Quebeleys with their 30 funnels and the rest? Char's Counter Attack demonstrates the Z didn't really go into production as even Amuro is stuck with what is basically a cheap knock off until delivery of the Nu Gundam. Besides which, the Kampfer still has an acceleration advantage over the Zeta despite its age by 0087, and most Gundam combat occurs in space.
Last edited by FOG3 on Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:00 am

There is a big thing that an overly realistic take on any vehicle/construct would lose weight switching from Testing/R&D models to formalized production run designs. There are thousands of sensors to help get the data to confirm the performance of a design that are not needed nor included in an approved and finalized design. It would only cover at most 1/4 of that mass drop but I figured that bit of real world input might also have been a factor for the series writers that came up with those numbers.

Are there any Mecha where someone can supplement the power source with their own life force? I also am finding the Macross Valkyrie to appear to be a more agile, so more fitting in my mind, option.
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Postby FOG3 » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:31 am

Spokavriel wrote: There is a big thing that an overly realistic take on any vehicle/construct would lose weight switching from Testing/R&D models to formalized production run designs. There are thousands of sensors to help get the data to confirm the performance of a design that are not needed nor included in an approved and finalized design. It would only cover at most 1/4 of that mass drop but I figured that bit of real world input might also have been a factor for the series writers that came up with those numbers.
*cough* Actually in reality that's backwards. Tech Demons aren't built to be able to actually fight. There's a reason the F-35 has spent years and years in development and fought weight after the competition involving Tech Demons. Also why the Soviet Tech Demons are scoffed at in versus on serious military boards.

Design refinements and improvements in production allow dropping of weight, but Tech Demons are not in real life what Mecha shows have them as. Plus there's always stuff to use the expansion space intentionally left into the design that adds weight through the evolutions of the overall production run.

Spokavriel wrote:Are there any Mecha where someone can supplement the power source with their own life force?.
Almost all the Giant robot types do unofficially, and a few do officially in all size scales. You almost can't find a series that doesn't. Unless you constrain that some on genre or size range, that's a little too much of a laundry list. You can list anything from Mashins to any psychoframe Gundam to any Sound Force Valk to the Sakura Wars mechs to a Spriggan Armored Muscle Suit.

You could always just give the guy a duplicate of Space Trash Paraila's Jaoukai card (Tenamonya Voyagers) and be done with it. She is one of the best Mech pilots, period. How many other Mech pilots do you know that can go out in a space battle with a cobbled togeth lightsaber in nothing but a space suit, commandeer a mech from its pilot, and then wipe out the entire attack formation without resorting to super beams of doom?
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Postby Spokavriel » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:52 am

I was looking at modern robotics. There are allot of different kinds of sensors used in testing a design and making certain it follows programed motions that are not included on the arm on an actual production line because they are no longer needed after the software has been proven to act within the limits of the machinery. Although some companies did do trial and error for their control systems it isn't the same as military hardware. Although there is one Government project where there is bulk weight numbers for sensors in the design. The Space Shuttle is going to be retired soon but it has never been an official finalized design yet.

All this means is that I research about research too much and it's left me with pointless trivia that wouldn't even end up in a quiz game.

Another place where testing sensors are in the design phase of a product but not in a finalized version causing less weight in the finished product is in the Automotive industry on most cars made since 1990.
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Postby Not-Going-to-Tell » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:59 am

Spokavriel wrote:Are there any Mecha where someone can supplement the power source with their own life force?


Well there are the masou kishin. Specifically, the lord of wind, Cybuster. Arial, meant mostly for close combat (it's absolute ultimate being a sword combo), runs on life force, and can obtain HAX of the highest level. In the original SRW timeline, it's pilot fed it enough energy to need a transfusion, letting him, for lack of a better analogy, at Yggdrassil's source code unsupervised. Though his enemy wasn't much lower on the HAX-o-meter, what with being able to throw Black Holes like pebbles, and bounce through worm holes.
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Postby camk4evr » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:39 am

The Dangaio used the psychic power of its four pilots.
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Postby lwf58 » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:50 am

FOG3 wrote:I am almost sure one of the various references lays it out that the emphasis went away from armor, except the shields because of beam weaponry following the One Year War.

The fact the Jegan weighs 21.3 tons to 43.7 tons verse the original GM's 41.2 tons to 58.8 tons is evidence enough that was the trend. I will concede I should have phrased that de-emphasized armor in favor of mobility, but you must admit a almost 50% drop in dry weight means dropping armor and robot part capability significantly enough largely done away with isn't that inaccurate.


They did de-emphasize armor to increase maneuverability. But they still had it.

The loss in weight and - eventually - overall size was also due to changes in technology and design philosophy. The first Mobile Suits had internal skeletons that they attached all of the armor, mechanics, and control systems to. Later, the "movable frame" system was developed, in which the mechanics and control systems were incorporated as part of the skeleton to save weight.

Another massive savings came from advances in fusion reactor technology. They were able to make the reactors much lighter and more efficient as time passed, and the reactors had been the single heaviest and bulkiest component of the suits. By MS Gundam F91, the reactors had been made light and compact enough that the mobile suits could be reduced in size as well.

The RX-78 was 18 meters tall, and weighed 60 tons. The F91 was 15 meters tall, and weighed just under 20 tons. Most of the savings in weight was due to the advances in reactor tech.

Even so, I still don't think that the huge, clunky machines used in MS Gundam are Ranma's style. Not even the F91.

Hmm. Mind-and-spirit controlled mecha? RahXephon was one, IIRC.
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Postby Light02 » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:09 am

though of the supers I'll agree the Shura's would be a good fit though another mech if it could avoid triggering his fear, KoRyuOh all it's attacks are melee, though another good one would be from SRWJ Costwell it was the hybrid robot, real stats but closer ranged moves
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Postby Not-Going-to-Tell » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:08 am

Light02 wrote:though of the supers I'll agree the Shura's would be a good fit though another mech if it could avoid triggering his fear, KoRyuOh all it's attacks are melee, though another good one would be from SRWJ Costwell it was the hybrid robot, real stats but closer ranged moves


To Elaborate: KoRyuOh, shared with RyuKoOh.

Also, Coustwell (note awesome theme revenger) and the upgradeCoustwell Brachium.
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