Good vs. Evil in fan fiction

[Comartemis]

Good and evil fics. I hate good and evil fics. By this I mean fics were everything is black and white. Most Harry Potter fics are good examples of this, thou BtVS are truly horrible when it comes to this. I really can't put into words why this whole idea bothers me, it just does.

I don't really have a problem with good/evil fics; it's actually the ones where the lines aren't clearly drawn enough that piss me off. 'The Return' is an excellent example of this, what with damn near every faction either fighting each other or planning to stab someone else in the back, it's frustratingly difficult to figure out who are the good guys and who are just Murdock's (or Pluto's...) puppets. Agh.


*EDIT*
Implied flame threat revoked.

Crystal Tokyo is a horrible idea, in any incarnation that resembles canon. Just no.

All my defense of Usagi as a good person (on the "Hotaru the Whipping Girl" thread) aside, I'm inclined to agree wholeheartedly. Utopias of any kind are doomed to crumble as soon as they face any kind of external challenge, no matter how good-hearted their rulers might be. I think Ranma makes this point the best in '1/2 a Neko Moon', so I'll provide an excerpt here to illustrate my point.

"Is it so wrong to want everyone to be happy?" Usagi asked, tears welling up in her eyes.

"When it's all they can be, yes," he responded flatly, "It becomes monotonous, things don't grow, they don't change. It's kinda like a stream, as long as water is flowing, things change, and life goes on, but when the water stops flowing, and the stream goes still, things become stagnant and life begins to fade away."

Haruka blinked, then shook her head, "Man, that was heavier than what I thought would come from you..."

Ranko blinked then shook his head in surprise, "Hey, you're right... Guess it's one of those changes, eh?"

"Could be," the short-haired girl agreed.

"But why does there have to be pain and suffering in order for life to go on?" Usagi asked tearfully.

"Easy, suffering, and struggle force us to grow, to get stronger and adapt," he responded, "Without something to drive us, to force us to grow, we get lazy and complacent. Weak I guess you could say."

"The Black Moon Family..." Setsuna whispered, "That's why they defeated Crystal Tokyo so easily..."

"Huh?" the black haired teen asked in confusion, "What are you talking about?"

"The Black Moon Family was a group that nearly destroyed Crystal Tokyo in the future," the crimson eyed woman responded, "They were a group of people that had refused Usagi's cleansing, and where banished to the tenth planet, Nemesis. Then, years later they returned, and nearly destroyed all of Crystal Tokyo, the Senshi from this time were forced to go into the future in order to stop them."

"... People were exiled from their world just because they wouldn't submit...?" Ranko asked in horror, "What kind of monsters would you people have become!?"

The girls all winced at the accusation, unable to meet his eyes, a small line of tears growing in their eyes. Mamoru's eyes glinted with anger as he challenged, "Who are you to call us monsters? What makes you so damn sure that your way is the right one!? We were trying to help people!"

"Often the best poison is made with the best of intentions," Ranko countered, "And as I recall, there was someone else that tried to make a perfect human race, getting rid of those who didn't fit in that 'perfection.' He was called Hitler."

The, seemingly, automatic assumption that the GW boys are together, this is so old. I would like to find one decent fic where this is not the case.

If you don't mind Sailor Moon crossovers (and a blatantly evil Mamoru), there's one... I'm trying to think of its' name and I'm having trouble, 'cause it's not in my archives, but it casts the G-boys as the princes of the various planets, and all of them are engaged to one of the Senshi; Hiro (Prince of Mars) is working up the courage to ask the Queen for Serenity's hand in marriage, and Duo (Prince of Saturn, who else would Deathscythe's pilot be?) gets Ami, I think...

If I find this story again I'll post a link.

[Tovath]

Good and evil fics. I hate good and evil fics. By this I mean fics were everything is black and white. Most Harry Potter fics are good examples of this, thou BtVS are truly horrible when it comes to this. I really can't put into words why this whole idea bothers me, it just does.

I agree with you there. I think it has something to do with knowing that the myth of redemptive violence is not true.

[Pale Wolf]

I don't really have a problem with good/evil fics; it's actually the ones where the lines aren't clearly drawn enough that piss me off. 'The Return' is an excellent example of this, what with damn near every faction either fighting each other or planning to stab someone else in the back, it's frustratingly difficult to figure out who are the good guys and who are just Murdock's (or Pluto's...) puppets. Agh.

I have to agree with tsukiakari on this. Everyone's got reasons to act the way they do - a story full of humans is vastly more interesting than the latest round of Good Vs Evil.

And figuring out who the 'good guys' are is easy. Who do you want to root for, based on their actions within the story?

[claymade]

I have to agree with tsukiakari on this. Everyone's got reasons to act the way they do - a story full of humans is vastly more interesting than the latest round of Good Vs Evil.

Depends on what is meant, precisely, by "Good vs. Evil." You seem to be taking issue with the kind of fic where characters become non-"human" cardboard cutout representations of virtue or vice. I agree--this should (usually) be avoided.

Comartemis seems to be taking issue with the kind of fic where there are no characters or sides that have any particularly notable moral advantage over the other. This, too, I (usually) find to be an unwelcome and off-putting thing in a fic.

The problem, to my mind, isn't "Good vs. Evil" at all, it's where the "Good vs. Evil" takes place. If all your characters and factions are precisely aligned on the Good/Evil boundaries, you are probably asking for a boring fic. Correspondingly, if your fic has no moral center or moral momentum, it'll likely be similarly boring. The key, IMHO, is best summed up by Alexander Solzhenitsyn thusly:

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being, and who is willing to destroy his own heart?"

Keep that in mind, and you should be able to pull of "Good vs. Evil" just fine.

"... People were exiled from their world just because they wouldn't submit...?" Ranko asked in horror, "What kind of monsters would you people have become!?"

*really wishes the CT thread wasn't locked*

[Comartemis]

Comartemis seems to be taking issue with the kind of fic where there are no characters or sides that have any particularly notable moral advantage over the other. This, too, I (usually) find to be an unwelcome and off-putting thing in a fic.

Well there's that too, but what I actually meant was that The Return seems to be a more extreme and morally off-center version of the events of Sailor Moon S, with Inners vs Outers vs Death Busters; the difference is, no-one seems to be able to determine who the 'Death Busters' are in The Return, and the 'Outers' (Ranma and especially the WIC) may or may not be working with the best interests of "the good guys" in mind; I found Usagi's dream about the warped Crystal Tokyo especially disturbing.

If all your characters and factions are precisely aligned on the Good/Evil boundaries, you are probably asking for a boring fic.

I beg to differ. 'Absence', 'Heir to the Empire', 'Reflections of Ruin', 'Sailor Moon V', 'Paragon', 'Progeny', 'Destiny's Child', 'Sailor Ranko', and 'Sailor Moon Millenials' all have clearly established lines between good and evil, and none of them are boring in the slightest, at least not to me.

"... People were exiled from their world just because they wouldn't submit...?" Ranko asked in horror, "What kind of monsters would you people have become!?"

*really wishes the CT thread wasn't locked*

To be fair to Usagi, I don't think Ranma's working with all the facts; it's my (very limited) understanding that Crystal Tokyo's birth was opposed by the blatantly evil, i.e. Beryl-wannabes, who were defeated and then cast out to Nemesis. If they won't accept 'purification' then NQS has to do something about them to make sure they won't run wild and cause destruction and so forth.

[Pale Wolf]

Comartemis seems to be taking issue with the kind of fic where there are no characters or sides that have any particularly notable moral advantage over the other. This, too, I (usually) find to be an unwelcome and off-putting thing in a fic.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Me, I've never given a fuck about 'morality', and a dozen clashing people who all believe they're doing the right thing is much more interesting - it's my holy grail in entertainment.

If you like watching 'Good Versus Evil, Round 4324455443, ding!', enjoy it. Just don't drag me into it.

Keep that in mind, and you should be able to pull of "Good vs. Evil" just fine.

You imply I want to or care.

Well there's that too, but what I actually meant was that The Return seems to be a more extreme and morally off-center version of the events of Sailor Moon S, with Inners vs Outers vs Death Busters; the difference is, no-one seems to be able to determine who the 'Death Busters' are in The Return, and the 'Outers' (Ranma and especially the WIC) may or may not be working with the best interests of "the good guys" in mind; I found Usagi's dream about the warped Crystal Tokyo especially disturbing.

What 'good guys'?

Everyone has their own objective. There is nobody whose objective is 'good wins'. If there were, it'd be goddamn boring.

If they won't accept 'purification' then NQS has to do something about them to make sure they won't run wild and cause destruction and so forth.

Ah, so I've 'got' to be kicked off planet then? Hm. Interesting.

[Comartemis]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Likewise.

Me, I've never given a fuck about 'morality', and a dozen clashing people who all believe they're doing the right thing is much more interesting - it's my holy grail in entertainment.

Ah, so you're a 'Vengeance and a Half' person?

Ah, so I've 'got' to be kicked off planet then? Hm. Interesting.

She could've just killed them, Wolf. Exile seems fairly tame compared to vaporization.

We're getting off topic here, anyway.

[Pale Wolf]

Ah. I should now be killed, and exile is being tame?

For refusing the rule of some alien whatever queen out of the middle of Japan?

[Comartemis]

If you are a megalomaniac like Beryl or Wiseman or Mistress Nine, then damn straight you should be killed, and no-one would cry for you (except maybe your troops). Remember Wolf, I'm given to understand that only the blatantly evil opposed NQS's ascension. I would like to think that you are not blatantly evil. 'Chaotic Neutral', perhaps, but not evil.

We should probably just agree to disagree; we're turning this into another Crystal Tokyo thread.

*EDIT*

Everyone has their own objective.

Exactly the problem; as far as I'm concerned, the 'good guys' are the Senshi; I always take their side in any fic I'm reading. Whatever problems we might have with Crystal Tokyo, insofar as canon is concerned, CT is heaven on Earth, the paradise that NQS is going to lead us to; it's "Happily Ever After" for the whole human race. Murdock, the WIC, and possibly Ranma all have objectives (or seem to, at least) that conflict with the rise of Crystal Tokyo; ergo they are, in my opinion, "the bad guys", but at the same time they sure as hell don't act like Moon's standard enemies; I can't remember what Ranma wants, but he's not about to go out and take over the world, at least not intentionally (and we come back to Usagi's nightmare). The WIC seems to want to protect mankind from demons and the like, but at the same time they remind me way too much of Gendo Ikari, with their hidden agendas and so forth. And I still don't know what to make of Murdock; if the WIC reminds me of Gendo, Murdock makes me think of SEELE.

[claymade]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Me, I've never given a fuck about 'morality', and a dozen clashing people who all believe they're doing the right thing is much more interesting - it's my holy grail in entertainment.

I'd find it a little easier to believe that you really didn't care at all about the morality of actions taken by characters if you weren't simultaneously arguing against the way Usagi (supposedly) set up Crystal Tokyo in a manner that sounds very suspiciously like a value judgement on her actions to me...

I beg to differ. 'Absence', 'Heir to the Empire', 'Reflections of Ruin', 'Sailor Moon V', 'Paragon', 'Progeny', 'Destiny's Child', 'Sailor Ranko', and 'Sailor Moon Millenials' all have clearly established lines between good and evil, and none of them are boring in the slightest, at least not to me.

The problem isn't when there are established lines between what is good and what is evil. The problem is when all of a fic's characters and factions are precisely aligned along those lines--when good guys are entirely and solely good and bad guys are entirely and solely evil.

Perfectly pure characters are inherently boring, unless in the hands of a very skilled writer. Utterly corrupted-beyond-recognition characters aren't quite as bad story-wise, but even they aren't generally as engaging as a fleshed-out character with more recognizeable motivations.

[rmt]

Me, I've never given a fuck about 'morality', and a dozen clashing people who all believe they're doing the right thing is much more interesting - it's my holy grail in entertainment.

Quite right. Nobody (stereotypical fictional villains aside) goes around with the goal of being evil. Everybody believes that what they're doing is the right thing, or that what they're doing is justified by some greater good.

That's what I'd rather see in a fanfic.

[Comartemis]

Perfectly pure characters are inherently boring, unless in the hands of a very skilled writer.

Define 'perfectly pure'; from my perspective, you've just called all the Inner Senshi and Sailor Saturn "inherently boring" because they aren't conflicted about anything pertaining to their duty like Uranus and Neptune are in SM S.

Quite right. Nobody (stereotypical fictional villains aside) goes around with the goal of being evil. Everybody believes that what they're doing is the right thing, or that what they're doing is justified by some greater good.

That's what I'd rather see in a fanfic.

Sounds like a lesson from my philosophy course. The best villains are the ones who think they're doing the right thing yet somehow manage to be absolutely evil anyways; just look at Hitler, I'm sure he thought he was justified in wiping out the jewish people and taking over the world, and I imagine Sailor Galaxia thought she "deserved" to rule the galaxy, even if that meant destroying entire star systems. Shishio Makoto from Rurouni Kenshin is probably the best example of this, with his "strength is everything" mentality: The strong live and the weak die. I'm the strongest of all, so I should be ruling the country. And "if the revolution is over, then I'll start another one!"

[Heaven's Deamon]

You just gave examples of the very point rmt was trying to make. Badguys can be bad while thinking they are doing good. As for the pure thing, I belive what was meant is a character who also does the right thing, always comes out ahead, never makes mistake, never has so much as an ill-intentioned thought pass through their head type character. A friend of mine once summed up the D&D Paladin class as being "So Lawful Good it cramps their brain", I think that would apply here as well.

[Pale Wolf]

Ah, so you're a 'Vengeance and a Half' person?

Yep, I found that one sweet.

If you are a megalomaniac like Beryl or Wiseman or Mistress Nine, then damn straight you should be killed, and no-one would cry for you (except maybe your troops). Remember Wolf, I'm given to understand that only the blatantly evil opposed NQS's ascension.

And this is the difference in understanding.

as far as I'm concerned, the 'good guys' are the Senshi; I always take their side in any fic I'm reading.

Fair enough - and if that's your preference, fine.

Whatever problems we might have with Crystal Tokyo, insofar as canon is concerned, CT is heaven on Earth, the paradise that NQS is going to lead us to; it's "Happily Ever After" for the whole human race.

Wrong. It's thought to be so by the Senshi. Perspective, my friend. That's the key to the world.


That leads to another peeve of mine - clinging too close to canon. This is fan fiction. Not 'summaries of the next dozen episodes'.

Push the boundaries! Change it all around! You're God now, make it interesting! See what else can be done with elements within the series.

I'd find it a little easier to believe that you really didn't care at all about the morality of actions taken by characters if you weren't simultaneously arguing against the way Usagi (supposedly) set up Crystal Tokyo in a manner that sounds very suspiciously like a value judgement on her actions to me...

Nope!

Ya see, I'm judging her based on my ethics. These are the ones that make sense to me. Essentially, I'm 'role-playing' someone who lives in her world: 'This is how I feel about this'.

To note: I make a distinction between ethics and morality. Morality is what people say is right. Ethics are what you decide for yourself is right. Morality? Fuck it. And a dozen people with clashing codes of ethics - or even the same code of ethics in some fucked-up situation - are more worth watching.

[Comartemis]

You just gave examples of the very point rmt was trying to make.

That's what I was going for.

As for the pure thing, I belive what was meant is a character who also does the right thing, always comes out ahead, never makes mistake, never has so much as an ill-intentioned thought pass through their head type character. A friend of mine once summed up the D&D Paladin class as being "So Lawful Good it cramps their brain", I think that would apply here as well.

So, continuing with the D&D references, the Senshi would be more along the lines of Neutral Good leaning towards Lawful Good; they sure as hell aren't perfect, just regular human girls with superpowers who use their gifts to save lives wherever they can. They are flawed characters, ergo they are interesting even if they act like Paladins sometimes, having much of the same moral code.

You just nailed my number one reason why I like Usagi more than Goku. Goku vs Frieeza does not interest me anywhere near as much as Hotaru vs Mistress Nine or Sailor Moon vs Beryl because Goku is not human; he doesn't have flaws, he doesn't make mistakes, and he doesn't have inner demons to grapple with like the Senshi do.