The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

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The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:29 am

This is a continuation of sorts to a topic I started last year, regarding certain elements in a Ranma 1/2 and Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha crossover. I only just now read the last page of that topic because I had held off on it to finish watching StrikerS... which I didn't do until yesterday. I procrastinated and got distracted on both fronts and it wasn't until yesterday that I remembered to finish watching one and then read the other.

Anyway, over the past several months the story idea I had in mind changed/matured. In particular, there was that issue if I decided that Jusenkyo could create mages directly, and I think I have a story arc solution to that, depending on whether the answer(s) I get (for which this topic exists) will allow a third series into the crossover.

It's about the Saint's Cradle in StrikerS and the two moons. From the sound of it, the Saint's Cradle would have been empowered by them. But how? It didn't sound like any alignment was involved, beyond the ship needing to move into orbit. Do the moons themselves have magic that can be siphoned? And if not magic, then what power/energy? And there's no mention of anything being built on the moons that would transmit magic/power/energy. And if the moons are a source, what about Mid-Childa?
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Pale Wolf » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:00 pm

... Kinda annoying that my old response vanished... Surprising blast from the past, had to reread the old thread ^^;

I'm guessing your third series is Sailor Moon, of course...

It's about the Saint's Cradle in StrikerS and the two moons. From the sound of it, the Saint's Cradle would have been empowered by them. But how? It didn't sound like any alignment was involved, beyond the ship needing to move into orbit. Do the moons themselves have magic that can be siphoned? And if not magic, then what power/energy? And there's no mention of anything being built on the moons that would transmit magic/power/energy. And if the moons are a source, what about Mid-Childa?


The series itself doesn't provide specifics. It's fairly clear that the moons are magically active in some way (for instance, Carim's Prophezeien Schriftlich only works at specific times denoted by the arrangement of the moons), but you're mostly clear on specifics. Note, though, the moons aren't a requisite for operating the Cradle (it's from Belka, not Midchilda), and don't really empower it - it'd be more apt to say that they refill its mostly-empty batteries (which is fair, the thing's been sitting under the forest for a few centuries, after what appears to have been an active attempt by Sankt Kaiser Olivie Segbrecht to destroy it...).

Could simply be that Midchilda's moons are abnormally rich in mana content. Obviously, whatever mana the planet itself provides is distinctly less than the moons. You'd need to come up with a whole cosmology, really.
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:21 pm

Yeah, it's Sailor Moon. Not any of the plot beyond the first story, though, since the series evolves in certain ways with every story arc, which causes some problems with consistency. I don't necessarily need to say that the senshi draw energy/mana from planets, but I'd like there to be a correlation to explain a natural phenomenon regarding where the magic in the Jusen water comes from.

By cosmology... Do you mean explaining how any amount of mana -- in whatever form it takes -- happens to come about naturally?
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Pale Wolf » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:48 am

By cosmology... Do you mean explaining how any amount of mana -- in whatever form it takes -- happens to come about naturally?


Exactly. Where it comes from and why, for instance, more is apparently produced (or at least available) from a pair of moons than a planet.
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:16 am

Gosh... That could be approached in several different ways.

Before I delve into that, though, can someone die if they exhaust their mana? I was wondering since -- if I remember correctly -- the ship took the mana of those inside it to repair itself, but all that did was prevent them from using magic rather than kill them. What I'm getting at is it seemed like a widespread thing that I'm doubting would have been so discriminating as to take all but a little from everyone when they have varying amounts of mana.
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Pale Wolf » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:12 pm

Gosh... That could be approached in several different ways.


Thus why I didn't even bother trying to define the thousands of ways it could be done. You'll have to pick what fits your own taste.

Before I delve into that, though, can someone die if they exhaust their mana? I was wondering since -- if I remember correctly -- the ship took the mana of those inside it to repair itself, but all that did was prevent them from using magic rather than kill them. What I'm getting at is it seemed like a widespread thing that I'm doubting would have been so discriminating as to take all but a little from everyone when they have varying amounts of mana.


Nah, the ship just intensified the AMF inside, not taking mana. They still had their mana, they just couldn't link it into spells. Wasn't to sustain itself, it was a defensive measure (the idea being to disable internal combatants until security forces could suppress them).

Whether or not someone can die if they exhaust their mana is unknown. At the very least, overuse certainly burns out the circuits.
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:32 pm

Huh... I could have sworn that the ship had taken mana to try and repair itself. I mean, if it could have suppressed threats to that degree, why didn't it do it sooner? It's kind of silly that it waited until virtually everything had gone to pot (the engine, the self-defense critters, anything that could have registered as an "ally," and the throne). If it just made the AMF field stronger then it's a glaring failure in logic because it wasn't used tactically sooner, using it instead to basically spite the victors (not that the ship could, I'm assuming) and fabricate a more dramatic escape.
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Pale Wolf » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:23 pm

Huh... I could have sworn that the ship had taken mana to try and repair itself. I mean, if it could have suppressed threats to that degree, why didn't it do it sooner? It's kind of silly that it waited until virtually everything had gone to pot (the engine, the self-defense critters, anything that could have registered as an "ally," and the throne). If it just made the AMF field stronger then it's a glaring failure in logic because it wasn't used tactically sooner, using it instead to basically spite the victors (not that the ship could, I'm assuming) and fabricate a more dramatic escape.


It was still deploying self-defence critters - there were plenty of Gadget drones sitting all around the ship. Don't forget, the primary defensive measure of the ship is the Sankt Kaiser, and the AMF shuts her down too. When the Sankt Kaiser was ceasing to fight, it hijacked her body. When the Sankt Kaiser was neutralized, then it amped up the AMF - to negate the enemies that had demonstrated themselves capable of taking down the Sankt Kaiser, pin them down, with the idea being 'kill with drones and get further support in later'.

One thing you have to remember is that the announcements were in German - meaning it's quite likely that those weren't programmed in by Jail, but dated back to the actual Sankt Kaiser period. It was responding based on a tactical doctrine and social and support assumptions from three hundred years ago. Its actions are naturally nonsensical, because it's not responding to the actual situation, it's responding to what it thinks the situation is.

To a major extent, it probably was to spite the victors - that is, if they killed the Sankt Kaiser, destroy whatever force is strong enough to do that so they can't do it to the next one.
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:04 pm

Makes enough sense, I guess.

Okay, then let's get back to how mana is produced on a fundamental level. After a few days to consider it, I was thinking that it might revolve around a "core" principle, by drawing a link between the molten cores of planets and moons and linker cores. This is taking into consideration that ki will also exist (to explain above-normal physical abilities without the aid of magic or technology) alongside mana.

The idea is that planets and moons with molten cores produce mana and ki, which gradually rises to the surface. Where there aren't any forms of life (or an adequate amount of such) to draw on ki and mana, both can saturate the ground (and bleed out when it's completely saturated). This would explain why Mid-Childa's two moons would be targeted for their mana instead of the planet (even though it's larger, and would make one assume it has more of what one wants). It could also be used to explain why there isn't a sailor senshi of the Earth, and why Tuxedo Kamen seems to lack the power and usefulness that the others do.

The ki and mana that living things naturally attract to themselves can be harnessed by intelligent creatures, but not much can be done with it in its "wild" state without being processed by a linker core; that, or the amount that the body can hold without a linker core isn't enough to do much of anything with and is difficult to use without said linker core in addition to that. But with the appropriate method(s) a person can put together a linker core to harness it or convert the energy their body produces into ki or mana, though its efficiency, and the likelihood that one will exist upon birth instead of through training, is dependent on how much it's used throughout the generations. The more a person's life relies on ki or mana, the better the linker core and the higher the chance of their offspring being born with (a stronger) one. The more that someone's lifestyle depends on other things (most notably technology) instead of their ki and magic, the more likely someone's linker core will degenerate and their offspring will reflect it.

Also, I was thinking that someone might be born with a linker core without prior generations having any depending on whether they're exposed to a lot of ki or mana while developing in the womb. For instance, the proximity of magma to hot springs might be one such place where a lot of ki or mana could be found. Perhaps places deep underground, like caves and underground lakes, or above the tree line on mountains.

Ki and mana will have a yin-yang type of relationship. Where mana is mostly soft and malleable, ki is mostly hard and resistant. Mana is mostly active and ki is mostly passive. Mana is mostly knowledge and ki is mostly instinct. The linker core for each are at the core of the body, the torso, with the one for mana in the chest and the one for ki in the abdomen. The idea is that the Taijitu symbol could be superimposed over the torso to show where the linker cores are located.

(I honestly don't know if any of this contradicts anything. It's been a long time since I've watched most of MSLN.)
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Pale Wolf » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:53 pm

After a few days to consider it, I was thinking that it might revolve around a "core" principle, by drawing a link between the molten cores of planets and moons and linker cores.


Aka, star seeds? :P

Where there aren't any forms of life (or an adequate amount of such) to draw on ki and mana, both can saturate the ground (and bleed out when it's completely saturated).


Ie, the power's bound up in supporting life force most of the time, so dead husks have more 'free' power?

The more that someone's lifestyle depends on other things (most notably technology) instead of their ki and magic, the more likely someone's linker core will degenerate and their offspring will reflect it.


... Do we really have to go into that whole 'magic versus technology' garbage? Nanoha is pretty explicitly 'magic equals technology'.

I mean, the Midchildans who are 'magic dependent' make use of perfectly reasonable technologies, including basic electronics, to perform their magic. Nanoha, whose linker core is extreme high-power, had a lifestyle that was 0% magic-based. The TSAB doesn't make use of nonmagical weapons technology for policy reasons, going by how insane the Belkan Wars apparently got, the use of it didn't degrade anyone's magical abilities noticeably.

Also, I was thinking that someone might be born with a linker core without prior generations having any depending on whether they're exposed to a lot of ki or mana while developing in the womb. For instance, the proximity of magma to hot springs might be one such place where a lot of ki or mana could be found. Perhaps places deep underground, like caves and underground lakes, or above the tree line on mountains.


Hm, it's possible, but it makes things very location-based, and they don't honestly appear to be. I mean, if it's regional like that, everyone in Uminari should have Extreme Powers with a more or less equal spread - while Nanoha is up there, and Hayate is way up there, nobody else is. And Graham was at least noticeable in power and from way away from that region.

It's a cool idea, but doesn't quite fit the data points. Unless you have something like the mana bleeding out in pulses, so only if you're at a particular state of development right when a pulse happens do you develop to fit it, and/or it all latches onto one person, or there's some other factor...

(I honestly don't know if any of this contradicts anything. It's been a long time since I've watched most of MSLN.)


Other than the bit above, no direct contradictions or problems, not much to say but 'cool'.
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:42 am

Pale Wolf wrote:Aka, star seeds? :P

Not quite. XD The star seed concept is introduced late in Sailor Moon and more or less contradicts the need for tools (as at the start of the series), which are more in line with the standard sentai context and has a more natural rapport with technology (like it does in MSLN). And I'm not sure if star seeds, and how they're created, is really all that compatible with the MSLN universe. And the whole chaos aspect (where there's "light," there's "darkness") of it seems too black and white for it, too.

Ie, the power's bound up in supporting life force most of the time, so dead husks have more 'free' power?

What I was thinking was that, since the ki and mana would be pushed beyond the surface at some point anyway, that only a few life forms might adapt to use it, or even rely on it, depending on what other resources (and amount of them) there are in their environment. (They could use either as a supplement, and in extreme cases live and die by it.) Otherwise, ki and mana are attracted to the energy fields of living things, which can draw them out of the ground before they can build up there to a significant degree. (This is assuming that the Saint's Cradle's long-distance procurement method doesn't penetrate too far into the surface.) Mana is the lighter of the two, so it's easier to dislodge from around a living thing's body with enough motion than having too much built up within the body. And from there it rises through the atmosphere and gets blown away by the solar wind once in space. Ki is heavier and is more likely to build up in the body and be released because there's no more room for it, then takes a longer time reaching space.

... Do we really have to go into that whole 'magic versus technology' garbage? Nanoha is pretty explicitly 'magic equals technology'.

I mean, the Midchildans who are 'magic dependent' make use of perfectly reasonable technologies, including basic electronics, to perform their magic. Nanoha, whose linker core is extreme high-power, had a lifestyle that was 0% magic-based. The TSAB doesn't make use of nonmagical weapons technology for policy reasons, going by how insane the Belkan Wars apparently got, the use of it didn't degrade anyone's magical abilities noticeably.

This isn't magic versus technology, but the degree of application. Technology is just a prime example for why flight (not levitation) in mages might be so rare: because of ongoing convenience and supplementation. For instance, who do you expect to win a marathon: the person who jogs and exercises regularly, or the person who doesn't exercise and sits around all day watching TV? And even then, the obvious answer is most likely for maintaining their current condition, not exceeding it and then exceeding that.

Take a calculator (or even an abacus), for instance. The human brain is more than capable of learning how to perform just like a calculator, but most of the world relies on various tools instead of utilizing the potential of their brain. People can do and achieve amazing things when they push themselves to rely on the things that they were born with, improving themselves instead of handing off the work to someone/something else.

I'm not saying that any amount of convenience and supplementation will automatically have a negative effect. So long as it's balanced with something to maintain the person's current condition (be it physical, mental or magical), there shouldn't be any problem by virtue. And I'm also not saying that people can't acquire what others normally have to work for without effort, or that they can't lose it even if they keep up a routine to maintain it. Stuff happens, after all. And not every individual is created equal; they're different.

Also, I'm not of the mind that just using magic is beneficial by itself. As far as I know, the linker core is more or less considered an organ of the body; in that way, I don't see how a pacemaker would be good for a healthy heart. Rather, I think the relationship between the linker core and the body (particularly the brain) is more important, in part because it's a natural arrangement. You shouldn't need to get an artificial limb unless you lose one of the ones you were born with, is what I'm saying. That's not to say that there's no place or use for technology, but it shouldn't be relied on unless it's needed. At the very least if the goal is to promote better linker cores in succeeding generations. An extreme case would probably be a lifestyle like Ranma's, prior to living with the Tendo family.

As for the "magic is technology" thing... Isn't that backward from the usual saying? XD I mean, I figure magical constructs are possible, but I'm pretty sure that the technology used in the series doesn't wink out of existence because of a dispelling, because it was magicked up with mana. Mana controlled and used by technology, and mana working with and powering technology, I can see -- but not technology being magic itself. I'd come to that conclusion simply because magic and technology have very different origins. Unless you're saying that the possible effects achieved by magic and technology are virtually the same, in which case it's another thing entirely.

Hm, it's possible, but it makes things very location-based, and they don't honestly appear to be. I mean, if it's regional like that, everyone in Uminari should have Extreme Powers with a more or less equal spread - while Nanoha is up there, and Hayate is way up there, nobody else is. And Graham was at least noticeable in power and from way away from that region.

It's a cool idea, but doesn't quite fit the data points. Unless you have something like the mana bleeding out in pulses, so only if you're at a particular state of development right when a pulse happens do you develop to fit it, and/or it all latches onto one person, or there's some other factor...

Well, I figure that there could be the kind of irregularities that one might expect is possible, either when random conditions are met or during certain cycles (should they exist). So, even though you can find a lot of ki and mana in certain places through accumulation, that doesn't mean that the release of ki and mana will always be uniform in size, amount and duration. Which would mean that it's possible for there to be too much for a given area of the surface and the lifeforms thereabouts to hold in all of the ki and mana, so it bubbles or geysers directly into the atmospheric stage of their journey. I'd say that it would ultimately depend on the timing of a child's development while in the womb, and possibly genetics, as to their chances; but there would always be a decent chance that a linker core might be formed to start with if the body is filled to capacity with ki and/or mana while in an environment filled with ki and mana, which keeps it from escaping or actually applies pressure and makes it more dense. And the reason why fetuses are the most likely to acquire a linker core under such conditions is because their body isn't big enough to contain a lot of ki and mana to begin with, so it wouldn't take long for them to be filled to capacity, which leaves them exposed longer overall and any possible increase in density would occur sooner.

Other than the bit above, no direct contradictions or problems, not much to say but 'cool'.

Beyond perhaps needing a better understanding of MSLN's magic and technology, and how they're used together, nothing direct is probably the best I can hope for. ^^;
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Re: The Saint's Cradle and the two moons

Postby Pale Wolf » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:33 pm

What I was thinking was that, since the ki and mana would be pushed beyond the surface at some point anyway, that only a few life forms might adapt to use it, or even rely on it, depending on what other resources (and amount of them) there are in their environment. (They could use either as a supplement, and in extreme cases live and die by it.) Otherwise, ki and mana are attracted to the energy fields of living things, which can draw them out of the ground before they can build up there to a significant degree. (This is assuming that the Saint's Cradle's long-distance procurement method doesn't penetrate too far into the surface.) Mana is the lighter of the two, so it's easier to dislodge from around a living thing's body with enough motion than having too much built up within the body. And from there it rises through the atmosphere and gets blown away by the solar wind once in space. Ki is heavier and is more likely to build up in the body and be released because there's no more room for it, then takes a longer time reaching space.


Mm... you could also just have mana/ki radiating out at a more or less constant rate rather than building up at the crust. But because living creatures, and especially magically active ones, are extremely hungry for it, the 'free mana' on inhabited worlds is low.

This isn't magic versus technology, but the degree of application. Technology is just a prime example for why flight (not levitation) in mages might be so rare: because of ongoing convenience and supplementation.


Or maybe it's just not casually easy? I mean, it's not like two of the 'easy flying' characters we know came explicitly from a setting where physics-based flight is freely available and all...

As for the "magic is technology" thing... Isn't that backward from the usual saying? XD I mean, I figure magical constructs are possible, but I'm pretty sure that the technology used in the series doesn't wink out of existence because of a dispelling, because it was magicked up with mana. Mana controlled and used by technology, and mana working with and powering technology, I can see -- but not technology being magic itself. I'd come to that conclusion simply because magic and technology have very different origins.


I've gone on this rant a dozen times, I'll trim it short for you.

Technology: the study of or a collection of techniques; the body of tools and other implements produced by a given society.

The making, usage and knowledge of tools, techniques, crafts, systems or methods of organization in order to solve a problem or serve some purpose. Merriam-Webster says: 'the practical application of knowledge' and 'a capability given by the practical application of knowledge'.

In summary: If it works, according to a consistent set of principles - if you can do the same thing and expect the same results - then it's a technology. That's the definition of the term. 'Magic' is what we over here call it when we still don't really know how it works - chemistry for instance started as alchemy.

Nanoha stands firmly by this principle, and does not draw a significant distinction. It's damned near impossible to tell what parts of Midchildan technology are what we would term 'conventional' (that is, mechanical/electronic/chemical/etc), and which are magic-based. They use it together, because to them - as it should be - magic is just another set of physical principles off which to base their technology. The only thing you can tell is that Nanoha weapons are (mostly) not chemical-based kinetics that can be operated by anyone.

Well, I figure that there could be the kind of irregularities that one might expect is possible, either when random conditions are met or during certain cycles (should they exist). So, even though you can find a lot of ki and mana in certain places through accumulation, that doesn't mean that the release of ki and mana will always be uniform in size, amount and duration. Which would mean that it's possible for there to be too much for a given area of the surface and the lifeforms thereabouts to hold in all of the ki and mana, so it bubbles or geysers directly into the atmospheric stage of their journey. I'd say that it would ultimately depend on the timing of a child's development while in the womb, and possibly genetics, as to their chances; but there would always be a decent chance that a linker core might be formed to start with if the body is filled to capacity with ki and/or mana while in an environment filled with ki and mana, which keeps it from escaping or actually applies pressure and makes it more dense. And the reason why fetuses are the most likely to acquire a linker core under such conditions is because their body isn't big enough to contain a lot of ki and mana to begin with, so it wouldn't take long for them to be filled to capacity, which leaves them exposed longer overall and any possible increase in density would occur sooner.


Seems to work, or at least my five hours sleep mind isn't finding any issues to raise.
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