Cosmic Era (Gundam SEED) Space Navigation

[Fatherz]

I need help for a fic I'm working on. It's a fan fic rendition of the Grimaldi Front battle referenced from Gundam SEED.
Anyway, I'm familiar already with the history of the Cosmic Era thanks to Gundam Official, technologies and mecha specs thanks to MAHQ, and, in case I missed something else, Wikipedia filled in the rest.
Unfortunately, this didn't include any explanations on navigation and detection methods of spaceships. The story is already approaching the part where a fleet is already being introduced, and therefore I need help on how the bridge crew operated in the SEED-verse.
One particular question that I have is "what method do they use in locating enemies?" In ordinary naval engagements, the ship has only four directions to go (forward, back, left, right), but in space there's 3 axes with 6 directions (up and down being the additional two).
How then do I portray the CIC detecting, say, missiles coming from right above or below them? I can't use what the current navy use, obviously.
From watching SEED, they do have a method to do this, however, I'm confused as to how it correlates to directions.
From what I know, they use a combination of numbers, colors (red to violet, I think), and 'callsigns' (?) like say 'Alpha', 'Bravo' or some such thing.
Does anybody here know if this method truly exists (in real life or fiction)? And how does this method work, anyway? I'd really appreciate the help if it's provided.

[lwf58]

I'm not as familiar with SEED technology as I am with the Universal Century universe. But if the general base sciences of the two are similar, they still use radar as their means of detecting things that are not in visual contact.
In the UC universe, they also use computer-aided and enhanced cameras, because radar is only good until they enter combat. In the original Gundam timeline, Minovsky particles are scattered by ships from both sides, blocking radar and radio communications. Light is just about the only electromagnetic phenomenon that the particles do not affect. So ships and mecha have cameras mounted for 360-degree views, and computers monitor the cameras for relative motion anomalies and suspicious objects, and then bring them to the pilot's attention by magnifying and bracketing the object on a viewscreen.
It's been awhile since I last watched SEED, but I seem to recall that although they don't have Minovsky particles in that series (that I can recall anyway), they use the same basic ideas for finding targets.
Some quick research shows that SEED has two items they use in place of Minovsky particles: the Mirage Colloid and the N-Jammer. These are used together to provide the same effect in SEED that Minovsky particles had in the UC. Going by that, I'd say that computer-enhanced imaging is probably the primary combat detection method of both universes.
The method of designating target direction you mentioned does not exist in real life. It's an invention of the series. In RL, you always know which direction up and down are. In one system, an imaginary clock face is used for vertical and horizontal directions, with 12:00 being up and 06:00 being down for vertical, and 12:00 being forward and 06:00 being the direct rear for horizontal directions. This is based on the heading of the vehicle one is in. This is the origin of the phrase, "You've got one on your six" as a friendly warning that an opposing fighter aircraft is coming up behind you.
In space, that system wouldn't work because up and down are relative to the observer. Unfortunately, I don't know of any site that might have a rundown of how the system used in SEED is supposed to be set up.

[Siden]

If you check out MechaTalk or Gundam Evolution, I'm sure you can find something regarding SEED on this.
THIS thread deals with warships targeting in the SEED universe.
In space you could use something that is consistant and not dependant on orientation when it comes to maneuvering, such as using the Earth to determine 'up' and 'down', 'planetside' or 'voidside'.
Or establish some form of 3d map/grip of the area and call out points and vectors.

[Knight of L-sama]

Detection measures in combat are essentially a mix of optical and IR systems. Like the Minovsky particles in UC N-Jammers scramble radar and radio waves and it's SOP to launch them going into battle.

[Fatherz]

I'm not as familiar with SEED technology as I am with the Universal Century universe. But if the general base sciences of the two are similar, they still use radar as their means of detecting things that are not in visual contact.

Yeah. They're quite the same. Minovsky particles are just about the only difference, while almost the rest of SEED (especially Destiny) are 'rehashes' of the original UC, methinks.
I admit I'm not that familiar with UC to give a good comparison that may be beneficial to my fic, but those stuff you said did help. Thanks Larry.

THIS thread deals with warships targeting in the SEED universe.

Ah, now this is what I'm looking for. At least I somewhat get the gist, though it's in Japanese (Now I regret not taking that Japanese language course...). So numbers refer to distance, colors represents which direction the target is coming from, and the callsigns are for the quadrants within the colors. Thank you for the links, Siden.
Now to figure out if the distance is in standard meters, or if it's a nautical equivalent. Hmm...

Detection measures in combat are essentially a mix of optical and IR systems. Like the Minovsky particles in UC N-Jammers scramble radar and radio waves and it's SOP to launch them going into battle.

Oh yeah. Forgot putting those N-Jammers in the story. D'oh! Oh well, off to editing the prologue. Again. For the third time. Meep. Thanks for the reminder Knight of L-sama.

[FOG3]

You can use known constellations to triangulate your position in space, which should be pretty easy in what amounts to Earth orbit. As for attitude changes while there aren't necessarily used in SEED you can simply use Pitch, Yaw and Roll. "Increase/Decrease Pitch/Yaw/Roll by x degrees" works for general maneuvering. Tactical maneuvering not so much, but the CO should probably not be micromanaging beyond hard to port/starboard or to go evasive to the helmsman in such a situation. Pitch usually becomes heading based off a compass, and roll is often ignored.
As for an idea of how it works in use:
rent Das Boots and pay attention.
Space combat wouldn't be that dissimilar in many respects.

[bissek]

Yaw is compass heading. It is rotation along the z (up) axis.
Roll is rotation along the x (forward) axis.
Pitch is rotation along the y (starboard) axis.

[Scooter]

You also have the Star Trek method of applying course/bearing in a three-dimensional environment: degrees mark degrees; ie 137 mark 25. It may seem clunky and awkward but 40 years of ST use seem to make it a standard
And the traditional yaw, roll, pitch still works as well, when Helm is calling out maneuvering. There's excellent dialog from ST: The Motion Picture when V'Ger was attacking the Enterprise, Sulu's calling out what the ship was doing; and in STII: The Wrath of Kahn, you can actually see the indicators on his console in a couple of shots.

[Fatherz]

As for attitude changes while there aren't necessarily used in SEED you can simply use Pitch, Yaw and Roll. "Increase/Decrease Pitch/Yaw/Roll by x degrees" works for general maneuvering.

Heh, yeah... I remember Captain Ramius saying something along the lines of "Pitch 30 degrees downward...!" or something when evading missiles or gunfire. I'll definitely take that into consideration, FOG3. And thanks for the link.

Tactical maneuvering not so much, but the CO should probably not be micromanaging beyond hard to port/starboard or to go evasive to the helmsman in such a situation. Pitch usually becomes heading based off a compass, and roll is often ignored.

There was one episode in SEED Destiny where the Archangel helmsman took the matter in his own hands and made the ship do a _BARREL ROLL_ in Earth gravity.
Though I'd be doing most of the battles in Lunar gravity or space in my fic, I doubt it if the ships in that period (pre-SEED) are able to do those maneuvers. I sincerely doubt an Agamemnon class or Nelson class would use a barrel roll to evade, unless it's used as a last resort or if the captain is crazy. Hmm... I'm suddenly taking option two into consideration... Thanks for the help...
I may have to return to this thread to ask other questions pertaining to how a space fleet may function, the command structure (though Wiki already has a list of ranks, so no prob...), hierarchy, etc., if the mods don't mind?

[FOG3]

Well simply looking at them, I don't see that much point in them doing a barrel roll. The Agamemnon might benefit in terms of the target profile she's showing, but due to gun coverage it'd be better off reserving it for orienting itself so its guns are actually pointing at the enemy. Actually being able to shoot back > a change in the target profile that won't give the enemy gunners that many issues. The Nelson class gains no benefits in presented target profile from rolling, but it'd still be useful for orienting oneself so the largest number of guns are pointing at the guys you're shooting at. It might also benefit from dropping it's nose relative to the enemy so the dorsal turrets can both fire forward.
Edit:
Looks like they actually tactically use nukes to great effect. Definitely going to be emphasis on not getting seen by the other guy first over slugging it out N^2 style.
Also there's always Atomic Rocket for stuff people have already hammered out to one degree or another.

[lwf58]

There was one episode in SEED Destiny where the Archangel helmsman took the matter in his own hands and made the ship do a _BARREL ROLL_ in Earth gravity.
Though I'd be doing most of the battles in Lunar gravity or space in my fic, I doubt it if the ships in that period (pre-SEED) are able to do those maneuvers. I sincerely doubt an Agamemnon class or Nelson class would use a barrel roll to evade, unless it's used as a last resort or if the captain is crazy. Hmm... I'm suddenly taking option two into consideration... Thanks for the help...
I may have to return to this thread to ask other questions pertaining to how a space fleet may function, the command structure (though Wiki already has a list of ranks, so no prob...), hierarchy, etc., if the mods don't mind?

Making a spaceship barrel roll is wasteful of energy. In atmosphere, aircraft perform them routinely because they have their wings working with the air to make the maneuver possible, so the only energy expendature is forward thrust, which they have to have anyway just to fly. Spacecraft don't have that going for them. They would need to have forward thrust, sideways thrust, and downward thrust all at the same time, whether they are in atmosphere or space. Plus, Gundam spaceships do not have artificial gravity, so the g-forces and coriolis effects on the crew would be undampened, and they don't have g-suits or acceleration couches like fighter pilots do. It's a good way to end up with crew casualties.
Now that I understand the color-letter system of target ID from SEED, I notice that it's useless in a fleet action. You couldn't transmit target location to any other ship using it because that system only applies to the ship the observer is inside. It's purely subjective, and the directions the system marks change from ship to ship, depending on their roll, yaw, and pitch. Even in a formation, it's nearly worthless. The directions are relative to the center of the ship, and the directions change from ship to ship according to how far apart they are in the formation, and their roll in relation to each other.
[Puts on his moderator hat] If you have a different question about how something in SEED works, it'd be better to make a new thread. That way, we don't have to worry about tripping over the forum rule in regards to staying on topic.

[FOG3]

They would need to have forward thrust, sideways thrust, and downward thrust all at the same time, whether they are in atmosphere or space.

Why? What advantage does that offer over one big set of engines in the rear with 3-D thrust vectoring and thrust reversers for gross maneuvers and a series of small attitude jets for fine maneuvers and reorienting, which is more or less how NASA does it. It takes no energy to stay in a given orbit. Big engines take up space, and more importantly add significant dead weight.

Plus, Gundam spaceships do not have artificial gravity, so the g-forces and coriolis effects on the crew would be undampened, and they don't have g-suits or acceleration couches like fighter pilots do. It's a good way to end up with crew casualties.

From a barrel roll? Why would they go to the trouble of spinning fast enough it'd have more then minor fractional G effects? Gravity is effectively zero in that area so it's not like there's any effect from your up and down not agreeing with that of others.

[lwf58]

Why? What advantage does that offer over one big set of engines in the rear with 3-D thrust vectoring and thrust reversers for gross maneuvers and a series of small attitude jets for fine maneuvers and reorienting, which is more or less how NASA does it. It takes no energy to stay in a given orbit. Big engines take up space, and more importantly add significant dead weight.

NASA spacecraft don't do barrel rolls. Their propulsion systems are intended to get the craft from point 'a' to point 'b', not for violent combat maneuvers. And we're not talking "staying in orbit" or "fine maneuvers". We are talking about the kind of movements that keep a ship alive when firepower is incoming.

From a barrel roll? Why would they go to the trouble of spinning fast enough it'd have more then minor fractional G effects? Gravity is effectively zero in that area so it's not like there's any effect from your up and down not agreeing with that of others.

Doing a barrel roll in a spaceship is insane to begin with. There's no need for it in normal operations. It's a defensive move that rapidly shifts the craft out of its former flight path without changing vector. If it isn't done at high-G, then incoming missiles, or beam or ballistic weapons fire from opposing warcraft, will be able to compensate and you might as well have not wasted the effort; the time would be better spent kissing your backside goodbye.
Zero-G has nothing to do with it. The forces are generated by the motions and thrust involved, not external gravitational pull. Sounds like you've forgotten that basic physics apply just as much in space as they do in atmosphere.

[Knight of L-sama]

Actually one thing that seems to have been lost in this barrel roll discussion is that the only time it's been known to occur was once, in atmosphere and it wasn't a defensive move, it was to bring Gottfried cannons on the top of the ship to bear on a target directly below the ship. Normally the Valiant linear rail guns would be used but they were damaged fairly early on in that fight.
It's one of the major weaknesses of both the Archangel class and the Minerva. Since they're designed to operate both in space and in atmosphere they can't mount much in the way of weaponry on their undersides leaving them vulnerable to attack from that angle. The Archangel and her sister ships compensate for this to a degree by making giving the Valiant's 360 degree rotation in the vertical plane but the Minerva has no such advantage.

[Fatherz]

Making a spaceship barrel roll is wasteful of energy. *snip*
They would need to have forward thrust, sideways thrust, and downward thrust all at the same time, whether they are in atmosphere or space. Plus, Gundam spaceships do not have artificial gravity, so the g-forces and coriolis effects on the crew would be undampened, and they don't have g-suits or acceleration couches like fighter pilots do. It's a good way to end up with crew casualties.

Exactly why those barrel roll moves by the Archangel just didn't seem feasible besides it was earth atmosphere/gravity. Even if g-force isn't a strong enough factor (I doubt the ship got into mach speeds...), all those equipment in the ship, especially in the hangar, being jostled around would inflict some injuries or casualties.

Now that I understand the color-letter system of target ID from SEED, I notice that it's useless in a fleet action. You couldn't transmit target location to any other ship using it because that system only applies to the ship the observer is inside. It's purely subjective, and the directions the system marks change from ship to ship, depending on their roll, yaw, and pitch. Even in a formation, it's nearly worthless.

Hmm... so there'll be conflicting information on the target location between different ships. Even if only one ship would be regulated to being the 'detector', the moment it transmits those locations to the other ship, the locations would be different relative to the other ships.
A question, would distance decrease this margin of error (barring roll, yaw, and pitch for now)?

[Puts on his moderator hat] If you have a different question about how something in SEED works, it'd be better to make a new thread. That way, we don't have to worry about tripping over the forum rule in regards to staying on topic.

Good thing I asked first then. I'll keep that in mind.

Why? What advantage does that offer over one big set of engines in the rear with 3-D thrust vectoring and thrust reversers for gross maneuvers and a series of small attitude jets for fine maneuvers and reorienting, which is more or less how NASA does it. It takes no energy to stay in a given orbit. Big engines take up space, and more importantly add significant dead weight.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't think any Cosmic Era ships have thrust vectoring (The first thing that came to mind was the capability of the JSF, BTW). Small attitude jets, yes. And it'll probably work to do those maneuvers, in space, albeit it would be impractical. But then, the Archangel did that in Earth atmosphere/gravity. I don't know if this would be a factor in lunar "atmosphere"/gravity...
Anyway, to end this lest it degenerate, NO. No barrel rolls for capital ships in my fic...

Actually one thing that seems to have been lost in this barrel roll discussion is that the only time it's been known to occur was once, in atmosphere and it wasn't a defensive move, it was to bring Gottfried cannons on the top of the ship to bear on a target directly below the ship. Normally the Valiant linear rail guns would be used but they were damaged fairly early on in that fight.

Three times actually. One on SEED, when the Archangel used a barrel roll to aim its Gottfrieds on the underwater MS below them. This was Earth atmosphere, of all places. Twice on SEED: Destiny, once to evade the Minerva on Operation: Angel Down (Earth atmosphere again), the other was used to both evade the Minerva, and simultaneously aim its Valiant rail guns on the Minerva. At least it was space this time (Or was it lunar atmosphere?).
Anyway, the point is moot. The example is an Archangel class ship anyway, whilst most of the ship in my fic's timeline range only from Laurasia class, Agamemnon class, Nelson class, and Drake class ships.

It's one of the major weaknesses of both the Archangel class and the Minerva. Since they're designed to operate both in space and in atmosphere they can't mount much in the way of weaponry on their undersides leaving them vulnerable to attack from that angle.

Which is strange why an Agamemnon class has no weapons on its underside, though its a space vessel. No CIWS either. Strange.