Backed into a corner

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Backed into a corner

Postby toushin » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:37 am

Masashi Kishimoto though a great author and artist the one thing he can't seem to do is come up with believable main characters. It just defeats the purpose if
the characters’ your manga focuses on drives away your fans.

sasuke
First off he tries to play sasuke off as this bad ass but let's face it he's nothing more then a pawn. I've already stated my views on sasuke's inadequacies as a fighter so I won't go into that. His whole life he has never made a decision on his own someone has always been grooming him for their own plan. What makes it worse is that half the time that person just lets him do what he want just so he can stay out of their hair until they need him. Everything he has done with either orochimaru or madara has basically been for their gain not his. What makes it worse it that it's obvious but he's too stupid to put two and two together. How are you going to avenge your brother if orochimaru consumes you? Throughout the series sasuke has progressively gotten worse especially after he found out why his family was really killed. Revenge motivates everything he does even now when he has nothing to get revenge for it still motivates him. Heck even Danzo the guy who was responsible for the massacre fully explained it to him and he still didn't get it. I just see him as a spoiled brat and revenge is just an excuse to get attention. This is they only way to explain why he constantly betrays people. He puts only his own objectives first and foremost. He was only loyal to the leaf because that was currently the only way he knew to get stronger. Then orochimaru. When he thought he became stronger then orochimaru he decides to kill him. We all know how that turned out. Finally when finds out what actually happened he loses all sense of reason. The only people who knew what really happened to the uchiha were Danzo and the Konoha Council yet since the Uchiha rebellion would have meant civil war all the people who are alive now because of what happen are responsible. This also includes the other villages that eventually would have attacked the weakened leaf. He's currently added his brother Itachi to the list of people he's getting revenge for. My stance is that you can't claim you're avenging someone when you spit on everything they've done even to the point of desecrating their corpse. Masashi Kishimoto himself must realize that sasuke is not someone who could survive long with the choices he's made which is why he keeps getting these ridicules upgrades whenever someone stronger comes along.

naruto
Actually naruto seems like your typical shonen protagonist TV trope called it an Idiot Hero. The problem is that Masashi Kishimoto has given naruto a totally unrealistic goal. Naruto will never be hokage because the position is just too political for someone like naruto to handle. The anime depicts him in a much harsher light, especially the filler arcs in part one. Nearly all of them has an instance where naruto would have destroyed the village if he didn't have his teammates with him. He was even told once that his actions could ruin the village's credibility. The manga mainly shows this through his interactions with sasuke. No matter what sasuke does he believes if he just gets sasuke back from whoever he is currently following that everything would go back to normal. The fact that sasuke has tried to kill him twice doesn't even seem to register with him. Even when he found out that sasuke attacked another village and joined the group that nearly destroyed his he took it upon himself to take the blame. He seems to be coming to terms that it's too late to save him but instead of actually trying to stop him he decides to die along with him. if even by some ridicules miracle sasuke does decide to stop his idiocy and go back to the leaf (which he better not) the four other villages would have no other choice but the declare war on the leaf for accepting him back. the fact that naruto is willing to sacrifice so much for someone who just want's to destroy everything he cares about in the first place shows that he could never be Hokage. He's inspiring, he's talented, but he's no leader. Another thing I find peculiar is that naruto is still a genin. That is another thing that would hold him back.

sakura
My problem with sakura is that she lives in her own little fantasy world. The only reason she likes sasuke is because of his looks and his skill. She has convinced herself that her crush is actually an expression of love going so far to ostracize herself from her best friend because she liked the popular guy too. The fact that most of the girls her age liked sasuke leads me to believe that she most likely didn't have a lot of friend's growing up. Then when she actually met him and he treated her with a combination of contempt and total indifference she still followed him around like a puppy. Though on the bright side that was how she became a genin because she would have never given naruto her food by herself. Sasuke like naruto just seems to ignore everything sasuke has done so she can hold on to her fantasy effectively letting him get a way with murder. Telling about his curse seal when it happened probably would have solved a lot of problems. It seems the worse he gets the more she ignores. Where if she actually cared about him she would of done all she could to help him. Later in part two when she was asked what he was to her she just broke out into tears because she couldn't answer. After sasuke tried to kill her I thought she had finally grown up and learned her lesson but it turned out that I was wrong. This shows that sakura can't be trusted. Not that she will betray the village but that when it comes to sasuke she will end up hesitating at a critical time and that will end up putting who ever she's with in danger. I also find it funny that she's willing to be sasuke's doormat but those who are actually attracted to her she treats like crap but at the same time she has no problem taking advantage of that attraction. Though when you like in a world that repeatedly sacrifices children as either weapons or just to save themselves yet then treats those self same children as if they were monsters then act surprised when they develop personality problems that's not surprising.

The main problem with naruto is that no one is willing to be the bad guy, not the villain but the bad guy. All of the adults are either in nostalgia about how similar the main characters are to them or just inspired by their drive that they can't tell them that their going down the wrong path. even when they do buckle down and act like adults they still eventually give in. as I said naruto is a typical shonen hero and your typical shonen hero needs someone who won't hesitate to educate them. A great example is from one piece, when their first ship the going merry was damaged beyond repair and the straw hat's were forced to abandon it Usopp challenged Luffy his captain over this decision and then left the crew. When Usopp tried to return to the ship Zoro took Luffy aside and told him that he is the captain and if he lets Usopp back without an apology then he no longer deserves that title and zoro would leave if he does. Be it their teachers allies or even their friends someone needs to tell naruto and sakura that it's time to grow up. That sakura needs to take her head out of the clouds and focus on reality or she will never be anything more then a liability. And that naruto needs to figure out what is important the thousands of people fighting for their lives or the person trying to kill them. He may be willing to sacrifice himself for a lost cost but he will not sacrifice everyone else.

But i guess this is why Fan Fiction exists, to patch the holes the artists find themselves falling into. And, boy does Naruto have a lot of holes. It’s a great series, no doubt about it, but I think it needs to be put into better hands. Kishimoto should go and work on something else and give the series to someone who can turn it around and make it better. That's not likely to happen but then a guy can dream can't he?
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Re: Backed into a corner

Postby Dumbledork » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:10 pm

Haven't read your long post. Sorry about that, but if there's a rant going on about Naruto I want to give my opinion. NARUTO S*X BALLS. It used to be interesting until Shippuden arrived. Honestly, the incessant power ups are even less believable than those in DBZ. Kishimoto has turned an interesting series into a big pile of SH*T.
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Re: Backed into a corner

Postby KonokoHasano » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:33 pm

So you decided to post a completely different topic about this instead of respond in your other topic, huh? Fine, since you couldn't apparently be bothered to take the time in the other thread, here's this...

... you need to learn to separate into paragraphs and not place each part as huge wall of texts.

Sasuke, for the most part, has some skill as far as most things are concerned. However, in the long run, most of his powers and skills have been obtained through luck. He's worked himself to get stronger in the beginning, yes, but most of the things are mainly handed to him on a silver platter. Be it his heritage and bloodline, Orochimaru, Madara, the Cursed Seal, recently obtaining Itachi's eyes... all of it has come from gifts for the most part.

What does he really have to show for it, though? Sasuke has never really won any important battles at all. Usually when he does fight against something important, he doesn't win on his own merits or skills, but as certain flukes. He didn't win against Haku, the Gaara fight never really worked out, there was his win against Naruto in the Valley of the End, but that was because Naruto faltered. Diedara blew himself up, Sasuke got his ass handed to him when fighting Killer Bee, and was taken for a fool when he thought he completed his objective, Itachi died of exhaustion and not at Sasuke's hands, and Danzo -- though through effort on Sasuke's part -- pretty much killed himself.

Sasuke isn't a genius; he's just lucky.


I don't agree on the assessment of Naruto unable to handle being a Kage. Sure, at the beginning of the series he was incredibly immature and brash, along with unable to really be much of a 'leader' of many. However, the series has progressed, and so has Naruto's personality and character. Is he still brash and quick to act? Yes. However, he -- and always has, mind you -- inspired others to change their ways and respect him. An example of this being Gaara and Tsunade.

Past Naruto really couldn't be considered leader quality. Current Naruto, however, does have what it takes. He has slowly opened the eyes of many of those around him and has gained the respect of many, especially in regards to Leaf Village. His abilities and skills have advanced to where he is a formidable opponent, and if anything, he could be considered to be the genius through his hard work and perseverance.

As for him chasing after Sasuke... so what? I don't see why him wishing to save someone that he considered a friend and close enough to be family is such a terrible thing and ruins his chances of being a leader. He believes that he can change Sasuke, and refuses to give up in that regard. Sure, it may seem silly or stupid to most people that he would go to so much trouble to help someone who is rather batshit insane and wishing to destroy Konoha, but guess what? He's done it numerous times before. Examples being Gaara and Pein/Nagato, in which he managed to inspire them.


As for Sakura... well... she's also gone through character development. In the beginning of the series, all she cared about was Sasuke this, Sasuke that. She didn't care about being an actual ninja herself, and she had no respect at all for Naruto. Throughout the series, though, this changes, and she gradually grows to be more responsible for what she does. She wanted to get stronger in order to not continue being the third wheel of the group, hence why she became Tsunade's apprentice and such.

She even had more development in Part II. Initially she is more interested in Sasuke, but as time goes by, it's shown that she gains more and more respect for Naruto, even worrying about him and wishing she could help protect him. An example of this being where she tries to convince Naruto to give up on Sasuke and forget the promise he made to her long ago.

Is Sakura still in love with Sasuke? Yes she is, but it's not the 'fan-girly fantasy' kind of love that she initially had at the start of the series. She honestly has feelings for Sasuke and is hurt when she finds out just how twisted he has become, wanting to kill him so that he doesn't sink any lower. Though she couldn't bring herself to do it when it mattered, due to remembering all that she, Sasuke, and Naruto went through as Team 7.

Why is that so wrong, though? After all, all three of them pretty much were friends and a family of sort when they were together. They shared many moments, they went through various troubles and hardships, and they got to know each other. Sasuke might not cherish those moments as of now, but Naruto and Sakura still do, and still view Sasuke as one of them, even though it may come to a moment where they would have to kill him.


I guess you're peeved because things YOU don't want to happen aren't going your way. Kishimoto is doing a fine job with his own series. Sure, there are some holes and retcons here and there, but don't a lot of series do that? Naruto isn't the only series that has flaws or issues about it.

Also, have you even READ the series lately? Have you even actually put any thought into what has happened and what hasn't? Have you actually looked at the characterizations instead of just take a half-baked glance and start pointing down the fallacies? Fanfiction exists because it allows fans to make their own stories out of ideas, not to be better than the main source.

And really, most fanfiction suck, especially in the Naruto section. So many people who think they can 'fix' mistakes think they have what it takes to do so, many times by making Naruto some uber Mary Sue or some such crap, ignoring various things that are important.

Haven't read your long post. Sorry about that, but if there's a rant going on about Naruto I want to give my opinion. NARUTO S*X BALLS. It used to be interesting until Shippuden arrived. Honestly, the incessant power ups are even less believable than those in DBZ. Kishimoto has turned an interesting series into a big pile of SH*T.

And yet you haven't read it recently, have you? Sure, there's an issue with power levels that get large. What do you expect, though? It's a shonen series that has gone on for years. Issues like that are bound to happen, and you are so surprised by it NOW? Even with the high 'power levels', there are still people capable of victory with skill.
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Re: Backed into a corner

Postby Cheb » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:55 pm

NARUTO S*X BALLS

Nope. Only the anime does that, the filler-ridden inconsistent something.
The manga is Ok. Besides, it portrays Sakura as a yaoi fangirl, and for that I'm willing to cut it a lot of slack.
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Re: Backed into a corner

Postby Pale Wolf » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:11 pm

God. Dammit. Toushin.

This is the third time. You'd stopped this, settled in as, at least, a rule-abiding forum member.

And now you're right back to posting the exact same thing in a new thread. We're not blind, Toushin. Those who cared saw it the first time. You had no need to say it again, it's obnoxious, and it wastes forum space. And it wasn't even that interesting the first time!

You're now banned for the month of November. You may come back on the first of December.

Since you went almost two years before posting a new thread for the same material, we're being a little more lenient. But this really is your last warning. One more extra thread for the same post to be repeated, and you will not be returning.

Thread locked, discussion may continue in the original thread here.
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