Kakashi VS Asuma

Talk about other General Anime and Manga Series here

Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby Zwzn » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:13 am

Who actually taught Naruto the most about how to use air/wind chakra?

Who is the better teacher?

Please explain.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby Wyrd » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:12 am

Kakashi doesn't do much in the way of actual teaching, at least where Naruto is concerned. He gives his students an idea of where he wants them to go and then makes them figure out how to get there. The advantage of this method is that it is strongly implied that there are slight differences in how every person uses chakra, so figuring out your own techniques will give you ones better suited to how you use chakra, while using techniques developed by others makes it easier to develop a large number of less strong techniques. Naruto has such a limited repertoire of techniques that he needs to be taught a few more for him to fall back on when his primary skills are not enough, but he is very, very good with those primary skills.

Asuma, on the other hand, was the only one to actually tell Naruto anything about what he was looking for in the particular matter of air jutsu. Kakashi is not an air elemental user. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he can use his sharingan to mimic an air jutsu he sees, he doesn't know the basics so couldn't teach them to Naruto.

So, Kakashi's techniques are more useful to making a ninja with a few strong skills, and is particularly well suited to teaching someone like Naruto, who has a great deal of difficulty learning techniques designed for people with vastly smaller chakra reserves. In the specific matter of air elemental usage, though, I would say Asuma taught him more, as Naruto needed more basic knowledge than he had in order to be able to put things together.
Wyrd
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 126
 

Re: Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby Zwzn » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:20 am

In my opinion Kakashi is a bad teacher. He put off teaching his team tree climbing until two bleeping weeks before the chunin exam. Tree climbing and how to walk on water are things he had plenty of time to teach before wave, and should have taught in the first week. The only reasons Naruto and Sasuke improved was because they continued to train on their own like they always had, but the person who needed Kakashi's help to improve the most (Sakura) was ignored.

To make matters worse Kakashi did not know about the special chakra sensitive paper, and the fact memories go to the original when a kage bushen is dispelled until after the time skip. What else did the lazy irresponsible moron not know?

Asuma seems to be the much better teacher because he teaches.

Wyrd wrote:Kakashi doesn't do much in the way of actual teaching, at least where Naruto is concerned. He gives his students an idea of where he wants them to go and then makes them figure out how to get there. The advantage of this method is that it is strongly implied that there are slight differences in how every person uses chakra, so figuring out your own techniques will give you ones better suited to how you use chakra, while using techniques developed by others makes it easier to develop a large number of less strong techniques. Naruto has such a limited repertoire of techniques that he needs to be taught a few more for him to fall back on when his primary skills are not enough, but he is very, very good with those primary skills..
I know I'm misunderstanding what you are saying because it sounds to me like you are saying the academy is pointless along with scrolls detailing how to perform jutsu.

It is canon Naruto has little trouble learning jutsu off of scrolls. Jutsu are pretty standardized. You do X and you will get Y result every time.

The only academy jutsu Naruto was not passable at was bushen, and Naruto was teaching himself more jutsu even during the chunin exam.

Wyrd wrote:Asuma, on the other hand, was the only one to actually tell Naruto anything about what he was looking for in the particular matter of air jutsu. Kakashi is not an air elemental user. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he can use his sharingan to mimic an air jutsu he sees, he doesn't know the basics so couldn't teach them to Naruto..
Really Asuma being the only other wind element user in the village not being called in is pretty stupid given the known threats to Naruto, and it's rather clear Kakashi had no idea how to teach naruto, and was too lazy to answer Naruto's questions.

The massed kage bushen teaching method won't help you learn something faster because all the clones will do pretty much the exact same thing. It will just tire you out.

Wyrd wrote:So, Kakashi's techniques are more useful to making a ninja with a few strong skills, and is particularly well suited to teaching someone like Naruto, who has a great deal of difficulty learning techniques designed for people with vastly smaller chakra reserves. In the specific matter of air elemental usage, though, I would say Asuma taught him more, as Naruto needed more basic knowledge than he had in order to be able to put things together.
What makes you think Naruto hasn't studied on his own, and off screen like he is implied to do in the chunin exam arc, and what makes you think Naruto has few strong skills? If Naruto does not have many strong skills then the failure falls on the teacher's shoulders, and not the prodigy who delights in learning new things, and will work hard to learn those new things..

Where is it stated let alone Naruto has a great deal of difficulty learning techniques designed for people with vastly smaller chakra reserves?

Where is there shown a jutsu made for someone with low chakra levels?

The only jutsu we see Naruto have a hard time with was bushen, and in that case Naruto's teacher Mizuki needed Naruto not to be able to do it for his plan to work.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby Wyrd » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:40 am

I know I'm misunderstanding what you are saying because it sounds to me like you are saying the academy is pointless along with scrolls detailing how to perform jutsu.


There is a minimum level of knowledge needed before you can extend it to personal skills, just as Naruto couldn't do anything with wind elemental power when all he knew was that it could be used to cut the leaf. As for Naruto only having a few strong skills, he shows more specialization in the few skills he knows than any other character who is not practicing a family style. Personally, I feel that it is a weakness possessed by many of the main cast that they don't diversify a bit more, but that seems to be more a matter of making the characters more distinctive than anything else.

Pretty much all low level jutsu are designed for people with very little chakra, genin and academy students. Naruto has shown great facility in learning difficult jutsu with high chakra costs like the multi shadow clone jutsu while having difficulty with techniques that seem to be easy to master to the average academy student. Mizuki is not a valid argument for why Naruto couldn't learn it because he wasn't the only teacher and this was the third time he had taken the graduation exam. Iruka would have spent extra time with Naruto after the first time he failed even if he didn't notice him having trouble sooner and tried to help him out. I can see the fanon argument that Naruto's other teachers didn't want him to succeed because of the Kyuubi, but Iruka likes him and wanted him to succeed.

Naruto doesn't have as much difficulty later because his teachers have realized how he learns and start picking jutsu that he is more suited to. I agree that he should have tested Naruto and Sakura with the chakra paper at the very beginning so they could start the process of learning elemental change which he says usually takes years to learn. Sasuke's affinity for fire was rather obvious when he used fire jutsu in the first test Kakashi put them through. Introducing them to the tree climbing exercises earlier would have been good once he realized how bad Naruto's and Sasuke's chakra control was. Sakura's control was so good she mastered the technique in less than a day, so she didn't need it as much, but giving them some training exercises instead of just running them through D-rank missions would have been far better for them.

In Kakashi's defense, he had never passed any genin before, so these were his first actual students. He might have been avoiding taking on any genin before partially because he didn't think he would be a good teacher(he was right). I know the canon reason he flunked everyone else, but that doesn't mean that this didn't play a role as well.

The massed kage bushen teaching method won't help you learn something faster because all the clones will do pretty much the exact same thing. It will just tire you out.


It doesn't divide the time needed, but it should reduce it. Each of the clones is thinking separately, and some will come up with slightly different approaches and try slightly different things. Combining those memories, he can see which approaches worked slightly better and then use that knowledge to improve his subsequent attempts. If he can build up muscle memory through the usage of his clones, then this technique would be very useful for practicing katas and any other low to no impact skills, such as keeping a couple of clones in the library reading up on jutsu at all times.
Wyrd
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 126
 

Re: Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby Zwzn » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:57 pm

Wyrd wrote: just as Naruto couldn't do anything with wind elemental power when all he knew was that it could be used to cut the leaf.
That would mean Kakashi did only half his job of teaching Naruto at best, but likely could not teach naruto any more because he can not use the element. Given the the circumstances Kakashi was being irresponsable for not dropping the passive aggressive behavior, and telling naruto to ask Asuma to teach him.


Wyrd wrote: As for Naruto only having a few strong skills, he shows more specialization in the few skills he knows than any other character who is not practicing a family style. Personally, I feel that it is a weakness possessed by many of the main cast that they don't diversify a bit more, but that seems to be more a matter of making the characters more distinctive than anything else.
It's really hard to say how limited Naruto's knowledge of jutsu really is. We see for example in the forest of death that naruto had scrolls to learn new jutsu, Naruto in his fight with Neji used jutsu we never saw naruto learn, and naruto does state that the only jutsu he was not passable with from the academy was bushen. It is strongly implied naruto knows more then he is shown to know.


Wyrd wrote: Pretty much all low level jutsu are designed for people with very little chakra, genin and academy students.
I think they are taught to academy students because they require little chakra and skill, but i see no reason to believe the jutsu taught at the acadmey was designed for those with little chakra or skill.


Wyrd wrote: Naruto has shown great facility in learning difficult jutsu with high chakra costs like the multi shadow clone jutsu while having difficulty with techniques that seem to be easy to master to the average academy student.
If Naruto masters difficult jutsu then that shows he is very skilled.

I don't see anything that says naruto's jutsu require large amounts of chakra to perform as naruto teaches them to genin with no problems.

There is no evidence that bushen (the only academy jutsu Naruto is not good at) is easy to do. Mizuki himself says he is bad at it under his breath.

Wyrd wrote: Mizuki is not a valid argument for why Naruto couldn't learn it because he wasn't the only teacher and this was the third time he had taken the graduation exam. Iruka would have spent extra time with Naruto after the first time he failed even if he didn't notice him having trouble sooner and tried to help him out. I can see the fanon argument that Naruto's other teachers didn't want him to succeed because of the Kyuubi, but Iruka likes him and wanted him to succeed.
Iruka and Naruto fully trusted Mizuki. That means they would not be looking closely at what Mizuki was doing, or think he would do something like he did.

We are never told what the tests Naruto failed were.

Iruka is not shown spending much more time then he has to with Naruto, and until near the start of the series hated naruto and wanted him to fail like everyone else. There is no sign he helped Naruto outside of class.

Mizuki's plan needed naruto to fail the test, and this plan had been made before the start of the series. He had motive, opportunity, and the skills to do it.

It's not fanon that most people in the village wanted naruto to fail. It's rather bluntly stated.

Wyrd wrote: Naruto doesn't have as much difficulty later because his teachers have realized how he learns and start picking jutsu that he is more suited to.
Actually I have seen nothing that shows Naruto's teacher tailor their teaching methods to Naruto.

The closest i have seen to what you describe is when Asuma taught Naruto about wind element.


Wyrd wrote: I agree that he should have tested Naruto and Sakura with the chakra paper at the very beginning so they could start the process of learning elemental change which he says usually takes years to learn.
It would have taken only a few seconds to test, and yet Kakashi didn't think to do it.


Wyrd wrote: Sasuke's affinity for fire was rather obvious when he used fire jutsu in the first test Kakashi put them through.
As I understand it Sasuke is actually a lightning element like Kakashi. Naruto used an Earth jutsu in his fight with Neji after all, and the Third Hokage as i understand it learned all five elements.


Wyrd wrote: Introducing them to the tree climbing exercises earlier would have been good once he realized how bad Naruto's and Sasuke's chakra control was. Sakura's control was so good she mastered the technique in less than a day, so she didn't need it as much, but giving them some training exercises instead of just running them through D-rank missions would have been far better for them.
Tree climbing and walking on water does more then help learn chakra control. They also help raise chakra levels. Sakura had very low chakra levels while Naruto and Sasuke had reasonable chakra control for their ages while having abnormally high chakra levels.


Wyrd wrote: In Kakashi's defense, he had never passed any genin before, so these were his first actual students. He might have been avoiding taking on any genin before partially because he didn't think he would be a good teacher(he was right). I know the canon reason he flunked everyone else, but that doesn't mean that this didn't play a role as well.
Kakashi never had a choice as to wether or not to flunk team 7 beyond Sakura for what can be called political and practical reasons. Sakura could have been failed if Kakashi had wanted to.

It isn't like kakashi doeasn't have people who he could ask for help from.

The problem is the only person Kakashi seems to have wanted to teach was Sasuke who we see Kakashi take special interest in. Kakashi cares so little about training Naruto he does not even bother to give accurate information to the people he has teach Naruto.


Wyrd wrote: It doesn't divide the time needed, but it should reduce it. Each of the clones is thinking separately, and some will come up with slightly different approaches and try slightly different things. Combining those memories, he can see which approaches worked slightly better and then use that knowledge to improve his subsequent attempts. If he can build up muscle memory through the usage of his clones, then this technique would be very useful for practicing katas and any other low to no impact skills, such as keeping a couple of clones in the library reading up on jutsu at all times.
That might help after the person has a reasonable amount of skill, but what Kakashi had Naruto doing would be just as likely do reenforce bad habits, and bad technique. If Kakashi had the Clones each learning a different jutsu it would make more sense.

That ignores the fact that all the clones will be thinking and doing the same things.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby Wyrd » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:36 pm

It's not fanon that most people in the village wanted naruto to fail. It's rather bluntly stated.


It is fanon that his other teachers were deliberately sabotaging his lessons. It is perfectly reasonable and well supported by canon material, but that particular detail is fanon.

I don't see anything that says naruto's jutsu require large amounts of chakra to perform as naruto teaches them to genin with no problems.


Unless you are talking about the Ninja Centerfold(A translation I always preferred to sexy no jutsu. It just has a certain ring to it.), I have not read or seen Naruto teaching any of his skills, though admittedly I have a ways to go before I will be caught up. A common idea in fanon is that the normal technique is an illusion, whereas Naruto uses an actual transformation because he needs to use more energy. There was a book I read, I can't remember the title, where one of the characters was not only the most powerful being in recorded history, she was several times more powerful than anyone else, ever. This caused lots of problems when teaching her until they realized that she had so much power that she was clumsy. To teach her they had to start with techniques usually reserved for experts because of their energy demands and then work their way down as her control improved instead of working their way up as normal as a student's power reserves and skill built together. Naruto seems to me to learn in this style.

Actually I have seen nothing that shows Naruto's teacher tailor their teaching methods to Naruto.


Jiraiya repeatedly makes comments about the techniques he is teaching Naruto being well suited to him but very difficult for others to learn. If the question was, "Who taught Naruot more, Kakashi or Jiraiya?" the answer would be a lot easier, though. Jiraiya, for all his faults, is the vastly superior teacher.

As I understand it Sasuke is actually a lightning element like Kakashi. Naruto used an Earth jutsu in his fight with Neji after all, and the Third Hokage as i understand it learned all five elements.


Sasuke is fire and lightning natured. Mastering two elements so young makes me strongly suspect that he could master at least a third if he were to try, but he mastered fire first and Kakashi states that 'most Uchiha, like Sasuke, are fire natured'. I think that was the wording he used. I have not seen anything that suggests that he even attempts to master other elements, though. Maybe Orochimaru is as bad of a teacher as Kakashi...

As I understand it Sasuke is actually a lightning element like Kakashi. Naruto used an Earth jutsu in his fight with Neji after all, and the Third Hokage as i understand it learned all five elements.


Naruto attacked from underground, but that does not mean that he used an earth jutsu. Given that he is wind natured and didn't even know about elements, I doubt that he could have used an earth jutsu.

Tree climbing and walking on water does more then help learn chakra control. They also help raise chakra levels. Sakura had very low chakra levels while Naruto and Sasuke had reasonable chakra control for their ages while having abnormally high chakra levels.


And he had Sakura stop trying to climb trees and moved her to watching the client the day after she mastered the technique, despite the fact that she needed to build up her reserves as much as the others needed to improve their chakra control...

Then again, stamina training is something that really should be done in peace time(such as while they were doing d-rank missions) and not while on a mission where it is likely to leave you too exhausted to fight well.

Kakashi never had a choice as to wether or not to flunk team 7 beyond Sakura for what can be called political and practical reasons. Sakura could have been failed if Kakashi had wanted to.


He could have, though they might just have gotten a different jounin if he had tried. It was just extremely unlikely that he would do so given the nature of Sasuke and Naruto. If he had failed them, it would have been because he felt they were not ready to start real missions, which is the point of a test that usually fails 2 out of 3 groups that take it.

It isn't like kakashi doeasn't have people who he could ask for help from.


Here is a point that I have to agree with a lot of fanfiction writers on: It is bloody stupid that they don't do more cross training between the teams, so that each jounin can give the students of the others the benefits of their particular expertise, and give a chance for each of the squads to have more practice working together. Naruto is a taijutsu specialist with strong ninjutsu to back it up. Training with Gai and Lee would do wonders for his effectiveness, and Kurenai could help all of them get better at detecting genjutsu, for example.

That might help after the person has a reasonable amount of skill, but what Kakashi had Naruto doing would be just as likely do reenforce bad habits, and bad technique. If Kakashi had the Clones each learning a different jutsu it would make more sense.


Each clone studying something different or working in small groups would be the most effective use of this method. The way he does use it is quite possibly the least effective, but not completely ineffective for all that.

That ignores the fact that all the clones will be thinking and doing the same things.


There is a clear sense that each clone is slightly different from the original in several scenes. The differences are small, but would actually be helpful towards developing different approaches and learning a new technique. If Naruto thought about it, or rather if someone a bit more intelligent had this technique and the chakra reserves to use it, he could deliberately plan the different ways he wanted to try before dividing into a bunch clones to try them out then recombining to see how each one felt and how successful each version was. This would enable the user to do days worth of attempts in a matter of minutes, but the real key is thinking things through, which Naruto rather rarely does.
Wyrd
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 126
 

Re: Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby Zwzn » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:30 pm

Wyrd wrote: It is fanon that his other teachers were deliberately sabotaging his lessons. It is perfectly reasonable and well supported by canon material, but that particular detail is fanon.
Mizuki's plan needed Naruto to not be able to perform bushen. That means Mizuki needed to make sure Naruto did not get help learning the technique at the very least. Mizuki's plan implies sabotage before and or during the test from at least Mizuki.


Wyrd wrote:Unless you are talking about the Ninja Centerfold(A translation I always preferred to sexy no jutsu. It just has a certain ring to it.), I have not read or seen Naruto teaching any of his skills, though admittedly I have a ways to go before I will be caught up. A common idea in fanon is that the normal technique is an illusion, whereas Naruto uses an actual transformation because he needs to use more energy. There was a book I read, I can't remember the title, where one of the characters was not only the most powerful being in recorded history, she was several times more powerful than anyone else, ever. This caused lots of problems when teaching her until they realized that she had so much power that she was clumsy. To teach her they had to start with techniques usually reserved for experts because of their energy demands and then work their way down as her control improved instead of working their way up as normal as a student's power reserves and skill built together. Naruto seems to me to learn in this style.
Naruto taught Konohamaru Rasengan, and possibly kage bushen.

I've seen nothing that says the more chakra the harder it is to do certain techniques.. If thast was true then Naruto should be bad at walking on water, and climbing trees since those are designed for people with very little chakra.


Wyrd wrote: Jiraiya repeatedly makes comments about the techniques he is teaching Naruto being well suited to him but very difficult for others to learn.
Which is uselessly vague.


Wyrd wrote: If the question was, "Who taught Naruot more, Kakashi or Jiraiya?" the answer would be a lot easier, though. Jiraiya, for all his faults, is the vastly superior teacher.
I'd say they both are bad teachers when it comes to Naruto. Jiraiya didn't care is Naruto was paying attention.

I'd almost think Madara was making it so the people who are suppose to teach Naruto do a bad job. It kind of explains why Asuma was killed when he was.

Wyrd wrote: Sasuke is fire and lightning natured. Mastering two elements so young makes me strongly suspect that he could master at least a third if he were to try, but he mastered fire first and Kakashi states that 'most Uchiha, like Sasuke, are fire natured'. I think that was the wording he used. I have not seen anything that suggests that he even attempts to master other elements, though. Maybe Orochimaru is as bad of a teacher as Kakashi...
Kakashi's statement could just mean Sasuke is an Uchiha, and that most Uchiha are fire natured.

Sasuke struggled to learn his fire jutsu, but easily uses lightning, and most of Sasuke's elemental jutsu are lightning. Since you can learn to use other elements beside the one(s) that are your nature. It's not like Naruto didn't know Earth techniques before he learned wind.

Wyrd wrote: Naruto attacked from underground, but that does not mean that he used an earth jutsu. Given that he is wind natured and didn't even know about elements, I doubt that he could have used an earth jutsu.
If Naruto did use an Earth technique then explain how the hole under the shadow clone was so tiny. I'm not saying Naruto performed the technique well. Naruto seemed to barely be able to do it, but it is canon that you can use elements other then your elemental nature.

What makes a blood limit like Tenzo or Haku has is the ability to use more then one element at once.


Wyrd wrote: And he had Sakura stop trying to climb trees and moved her to watching the client the day after she mastered the technique, despite the fact that she needed to build up her reserves as much as the others needed to improve their chakra control...

Then again, stamina training is something that really should be done in peace time(such as while they were doing d-rank missions) and not while on a mission where it is likely to leave you too exhausted to fight well.
Kakashi had lost total track of time, and had been putting the training off for later. He hadn't even realized that it was about time for the chunin exam It one thing to not be able to keep track of what hour it is, but to not know the month is very bad.


Wyrd wrote: He could have, though they might just have gotten a different jounin if he had tried. It was just extremely unlikely that he would do so given the nature of Sasuke and Naruto. If he had failed them, it would have been because he felt they were not ready to start real missions, which is the point of a test that usually fails 2 out of 3 groups that take it.
Kakashi's eye is why he didn't have a choice with Sasuke, and the Sharingan was/is believed to be able to control the Nine tails.

The only other jonin I can see the village assigning Naruto to is Tenzo because of his wood techniques, but he seems weaker and less skilled then Kakashi, and in at least team 7's case the jonin needs to be able to act as a body guard as much as a teacher.

Truthfully all the teams of Naruto's graduation year that past were pasted because of politics.

Wyrd wrote: Here is a point that I have to agree with a lot of fanfiction writers on: It is bloody stupid that they don't do more cross training between the teams, so that each jounin can give the students of the others the benefits of their particular expertise, and give a chance for each of the squads to have more practice working together. Naruto is a taijutsu specialist with strong ninjutsu to back it up. Training with Gai and Lee would do wonders for his effectiveness, and Kurenai could help all of them get better at detecting genjutsu, for example.
The teams don't even have to train together. The jonin just has to ask another jonin for different methods to train someone in that jonin's specialty. Jonin are suppose to be competent in ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu.


Wyrd wrote: Each clone studying something different or working in small groups would be the most effective use of this method. The way he does use it is quite possibly the least effective, but not completely ineffective for all that.
Yep


Wyrd wrote: There is a clear sense that each clone is slightly different from the original in several scenes. The differences are small, but would actually be helpful towards developing different approaches and learning a new technique. If Naruto thought about it, or rather if someone a bit more intelligent had this technique and the chakra reserves to use it, he could deliberately plan the different ways he wanted to try before dividing into a bunch clones to try them out then recombining to see how each one felt and how successful each version was. This would enable the user to do days worth of attempts in a matter of minutes, but the real key is thinking things through, which Naruto rather rarely does.
Hours maybe, minutes is not not enough time to really do anything.

As for thinking things through, it took Kakashi far longer then possibly Naruto was alive to realize shadow clones could be used in such a manner, come up with the training method, and no one seems to use such a method of training even on smaller scales. I doubt Naruto ever had a shadow clone out of his sight, and around for very long before.

Naruto isn't stupid. He's actually one of the smartest characters. He tends to win by out thinking the other guy.
Zwzn
Moon Senshi
Posts: 1004
 

Re: Kakashi VS Asuma

Postby FriendlyEL » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:15 pm

To me about the same, except probably Kakashi did slightly more. Either way, Naruto generally comes across to me as someone who has grown used to learning on his own independently with the exception of someone showing him what to do beforehand.
FriendlyEL
User avatar
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 870
 


Return to Anime / Manga

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users