Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

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Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:07 am

I was wondering if that was ever explained at some point.

If not, or assuming we didn't know even if we did, why would they be interested in such a thing? Be creative, if you want. For instance, are they secretly submissive/masochistic, and need someone more powerful than they are to fulfill their desires absolutely? ;p I pitch that because I'm curious about whether or not anyone else would come up with the same idea that I came up with (which isn't the example I gave, of course).

(In the case that someone is familiar with the series in question, but "Chousin" doesn't clue them in, I'm talking about Tokimi, Tsunami and Washu, from Tenchi Muyo.)
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby camk4evr » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:25 am

Yeah it was explained in the last episode of the 3rd OVA series. If I remember correctly, they want to create a greater being because the wish to know if there is more to the universe (multiverse whatever). I think. I'll have to double check to make sure
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:29 am

If nothing else, I can see Washuu cackling and saying "This is my greatest creation!" (Apologies to Dexter and his lab.)
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Drawde2 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:21 am

From what I remember camk4evr is correct. An X-dimensional being can't percieve a higher dimensional being unless it comes down to their level. They had no way of knowing, at all, if anything greater than themselves existed unless said being came to them. And since they couldn't check they did the best they could: try to make one. Tokimi tried to set it up to where the universe would make one by accident, but the best she ended up with was Z. Tsunami had a long convulted plan that eventually worked and ended up with Tenchi. It required constant attention for well over 100,000 years. While Washu, I think, decided to study reality from the inside and locked most of her powers in her gems.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:21 pm

But was Tenchi really "above" them? The ending of the OVA confused the heck out of me, and made little sense. It seemed rather contrived, to me, that Tenchi suddenly had enough power to destroy the universe (or universes; I forget). (I was thinking that it'd follow the same logic as the Juraian space trees, which get weaker with every successive generation. Hence, why is Tenchi special when he's only part-Juraian, since we know that the Tenchi Muyo universe portrays the humans of Earth as being nothing special? Which should beg the question: what's so special about the combination of genetics that he just happens to have?) And I don't recall a, "we've done it," moment from the Chousin, either. That might just be my memory, though. I doubt my memory fare's any better than normal when I'm confused.

Other than that, does anyone else have anything to include, so Ellen's idea won't get lonely and cold? Surely there must be more than that, since I'm still looking to see if anyone thinks of the one I thought of. *_*
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:43 am

Tenchi's power doesn't come from his Pedigree. His pedigree comes from his power.

His power comes from being the Anomally tsunami felt from the man who would become the first Juraian emperor. She didn't breed power into Tenchi. She protected the breed that had the X Factor she was looking for until it finally reached its end point. She wasn't sensing the bloodline itself, but probably the causality line linked to it.

Remember that Tenchi isn't even half Juraian.

Azuza was the son of a Juraian and a GP officer. Yosho is the son of a half-juraian (Azuza) and an Earthling.

Tenchi's earth family is the result of Yosho's 1/4 pedigree with the descendant of his mother's sister(?), also an earthling. Tenchi himself has so little actual 'JURAIAN' blood in him that the point is next to irrellevant.


As far as Tenchi being that thing they've been looking for. I think he is. But fans might be thinking about it from the wrong perspective.
People are thinking in terms of physical power. In terms of the interdimensional 'muscle'.

I think what has actually been going on is that Tenchi is a being who's MIND was developed to the point where he could access abilities from higher planes. It's not raw power, it's something far more potent. It's Potential.

It's actually something I could better explain by quoting L-Sama when she took over Lina's body in Slayers.
"My mind is my power. And my power is my mind."

When you're at the level of the choushin as a supernatural lifeform, things like a physical body, placement in space and time... All that, are but a mere change of clothes for the incredibly potent Mind in the center of it all. It is the mind that is the true power behind the power.

Kami-Tenchi even pointed it to Tenchi without so much as sounding nervous. "Think about what is truely important to you. * The rest is easy."

The instant tenchi did that, he shrugged off the pain. And then later in the bonus episode, had already picked up the ability to teleport exactly where he wanted to be with a thought, and throw up enough lighthawk wings to make his every other showing look weak.

Considering how causaility is but a play thing to the choushin... I have the feeling that what the choushin did, they don't even realize. Tenchi did not start out a god. He became a god... but once he becomes a god, he retroactively was always a god.

Much like Sasami and Tsunami. Sasami did not start out as part of tsunami... But once she was assimilated, she was always Tsunami.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Quickshot0 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:09 am

If I remember correctly they never knew how to actually make one of their own, but they knew everything else. So obviously there was something they didn't know and their goal was to try and figure out what a Chousin was. Thus one did artificial selection via destroying universes I guess, one found the most promising of existing lineages and tried to help it along and one tried to invent it by rebuilding all her knowledge from scratch and seeing if that would show what their seemingly perfect knowledge was missing.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:31 pm

So, basically, Tenchi more or less won a lottery among sentient entities within the context of existence, in the "mind over matter" sense? He just happens to have some unexplainable thing that allows his will to have a greater effect on his environment than other known entities?

What I don't get is how it's possible to accomplish something they have no knowledge of by using the limitations of what they know and having a hand in how things proceed. Washu, in my opinion, probably had the best and most logical approach, but the knowledge of what she could learn to do would still be limited to the environment made with their knowledge. You can only make a sand castle as big as the sand box you've made allows. And the kind of sand chosen for it also decides what can and can't be done.

I'm just thinking that it would make more sense for it to be possible under this sort of logic:

Barbossa wrote:For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Wyrd » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:40 pm

The Well World series had a similar idea. In the beginning, there was one race that developed to the point of understanding the math behind the very laws of reality. They could do just about anything they could imagine, yet they felt that they were somehow lacking. The solution they came up with was that the problem was in themselves, so they designed a vast array of new races and the worlds in which they could have evolved, then changed themselves into the first members of those races and scattered them across the universe in the hopes that at least one of these new forms would figure out what they had missed. The planet sized computer where they tested forms out before sending them into the universe, the Well World, was still funcioning. In fact, if someone came across one of their long abandoned planets with a sufficiently strong desire to become something new or to escape their current life, the gate there would pull them in, teleport them to the Well World, and sort them into a different species.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:51 pm

Huh. That actually sounds interesting. I'm going to look that series up and see if I might pursue reading it.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:52 pm

Crescent Pulsar R wrote:What I don't get is how it's possible to accomplish something they have no knowledge of by using the limitations of what they know and having a hand in how things proceed.

Einstein was unhappy with the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which said the laws of physics at small scales have only a probabilistic effect on macroscopic events. This led to an unhappy letter to Max Born in which Einstein said, "I, at any rate, am convinced that He [God] does not throw dice." It's been an argument in physics for nigh unto a century now. Those who hold that God does play dice with the universe seem to be playing the stronger hand.

With the Chousin, it was perhaps more a gigantic game of spin-the-bottle, with the bottle ending up pointing at Tenchi. You don't have to know what you're doing to do it -- politicians have been demonstrating that for millennia. They often get results they weren't expecting, and may or may not like. So be it with the Chousin. Fortunately, at least two of them seem to like Tenchi.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Drawde2 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:57 pm

I don't think Tokimi had a problem with Tenchi.

Her idea was that if you can't figure it out yourself, let random chance try. Her part of our dimension looked messed up because it was. She deliberately set it up to where reality didn't work right in the hope that the result she wanted would eventually pop up. She ended up with Z as her closest result instead.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:09 am

One of the themes I'm actually incorporating into my Fic (you guys know where to find it) is something along the lines of Schrodinger's experiment.

Effectively, when asked the question, 'Why does the universe exist?'

The solution is somewhat existential, but if played the right way, it makes sense.

Why does the universe exist?

Because if it didn't, we wouldn't be here to ask that question.

When you stop to think about it, a sentient... No, a SAPIENT mind is more than just the mass of the matter that makes it up. As humans, we don't just think. When we exercise our creative talents, we generate information from nothing. When you look at spacetime at the sub-nuclear level... It is comprised entirely of energy arranged in patterns. It is INFORMATION.
While we may not be generating matter and energy as we know it, our thoughts are generating low dimensional depictions of complete information systems.
At a certain level, it is possible that 'thought' itself is the real key. The very act of observing the universe pulls it from a probability statistic into existence in a BANG of energy.

Which means that all sapient beings express a certain level of this potential to a tiny degree. However, some, who's minds are given a chance to evolve, to tap the primordial energies of chaos, can observe themselves into godhood. And of course, as Schrodinger's experiement hypothesized on probability... Once it is observed, the probability was ALWAYS 1. IOW, once Tenchi was observed reaching kami-tenchi status... He always had that level of power.

The problem is thus, how do you go about creating this? I hypothesize that what the choushin don't know you need, is to first have a sapience. (As Sapience is where the mind starts concieving possibilities from nothing.) Then the sapience must have the potential to evolve to their level, which narrows it down to a near lottery pick from who-knows how many universes. Then that sapience and potential must be pushed to evolve, and survive until it reaches a critical probability. IE, it requires that it needs to be pushed to its limits repeatedly without destroying it. Once it hits that critical probability, and taps into the highest dimensional levels. It pulls a HHGTTG Heart of Gold....

All minds hold this infinite potential within' their grasp. However, the ability survive long enough (cosmic scale), and the ability to push beyond its limits without being destroyed is even more rare. So it's not like they just spring up very often.

The way I see it, in order to fulfill enough of the situation required the choushin to actually ACCIDENTALLY taint their experiment. Instead of letting things be, they each put their personal interests in Tenchi ahead of the experiement... (Since they had all the time in eternity, literally, to look.) And accidentally fulfilled the criteria about the mind surviving until it could observe itself into ascension.

In short, they accidentally did what they didn't know was required. They incubated Tenchi.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby Crescent Pulsar R » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:52 pm

Hmmmm. Makes enough sense, I guess.

I'm wondering about something, though. From the perspective of the audience (us), does Tenchi achieve that in the OVA, regarding the initiation of the "kami" status, or in some unseen future event that's reflected retroactively in what the audience sees in the OVA? I can't tell.
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Re: Why do the Chousin want to create a greater being?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:05 pm

N E D

Not Enough Data.

He certainly starts accellerating in terms of power growth quite phenominally.
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