Morality and the TSAB?

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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Uldihaa » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:15 pm

I'll throw in my two cents on this.

The nepotism: You do realize that nepotism is only of concern in a society that can't prove if a promotion is due to ability or relations, right? It becomes completely moot in one that has ways of identifying which one is the reason for the promotion. Considering the sheer amount of information and direct observation available to the TSAB, I think they can tell which is which. And by promotion, I also mean favoritism as well. Just used the most obvious example of favoritism.

Next point, the Arthra was actually in the area of Earth trying to find out what happened to the transport ship; Yuuno just managed to get there first. Keep in mind, it takes a lot more time to get a ship from TSAB Headquarters to near-Earth dimensional space than it is for one strong mage to long-distance transport him/her self. The reason they didn't get involved until Nanoha and Fate's fourth clash over the Jewel Seeds is because they didn't get there until then! And Chrono immediately moved at prevent the very same thing that happened the last time those two girls fought over a Seed i.e. the damn thing going nuts. By the way, they come right out and say they detected the previous Seed going nuts.

As mentioned, Nanoha, Yuuno, and Fate were never pressured into joining the TSAB. Lindy asked for Nanoha and Yuuno's help, and made it a point to encourage them to take a little time to make their decision. They both agreed to help, because that's the kind of characters they are; you know, heroes. Fate joined due to her lingering feelings of guilt, and because she believed it the fastest way to meet Nanoha again.

Oh, and Fate was only imprisoned until they got to Mid-Childa; which isn't some bizarrely cruel thing to do. She was, after all, guilty of pursuing a dangerous Lost Logia, so I'm assuming it was SOP; much like the way police officers in my city aren't allowed to have anyone in the back of their patrol car unless cuffed. I'm not sure if she was acquitted or allowed to commute her 'sentence' as community service in the TSAB; what I am certain of is what happened to Hayate. She chose service as a way to repay the harm her 'children' caused.

Those that have read the 'Most hated Character' thread know my opinion of Gil Graham. Looking back, I can say that he really was trying to do the best he could. I can honestly say that I really don't think he had an true malice in what he did. Also, take a look at that last episode, particularly the epilogue. It's set fives years later, and yet he looks like he's aged ten or twenty. As the son of retired military, I can tell you it takes more than fives years for someone that's spent all their adult life in a regimented lifestyle to get to the shaggy, slumped look Gil sports when he and his familiars are looking at photos and a letter from Hayate. He looks broken. His beard is a mess, as is his hair. He's slump-shouldered and looks like he's not trying to live all that hard. He retired, but we don't know just what happened behind closed doors. Hell, his 'retirement' might have been a forced resignation with it being made very clear that he was only technically free, and only because things worked out in the end.

Now, do I agree with that approach? No, but the TSAB seems to be focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment; they seem inclined to be more forgiving when the guilty are honestly remorseful. The reason Jail, Quatro, Uno, Tre, and Sette are imprisoned is due to them either not showing any remorse, or in the case of Sette loyalty to Tre.

I will say that there are signs of corruption in the TSAB, but not any more than any other large organization; point to any big-city (and quite a few small-city!) police forces and you'll find corrupt cops, jerkasses, and abusive types. Does that mean all cops are bad? Uh, no.

That's all I'll say on this.
Last edited by Uldihaa on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Wyrd » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:22 pm

Pale Wolf wrote:Everyone, cool off, it's an anime series, the world's not gonna end just because you didn't defend your interpretation of it aggressively enough.


Yes it will! I've been fighting off Ragnarok tooth and nail on these forums and others! 8)
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:shock: Wait a minute. I want Ragnarok to occur. Oh, no! What have I been doing?! :shock:
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:58 am

Comartemis wrote:But you said yourself that Earth is a backwater. What interests exactly is the TSAB protecting by stopping a Lost Logia from blowing it up, considering that they already know that just Arcing the thing won't prevent the BoD from reincarnating?


When did blowing up the earth enter into the BoDs equation?
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Wyrd » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:16 am

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:When did blowing up the earth enter into the BoDs equation?


If the book hadn't been stopped, the BoD would have destroyed the planet before the it self destructed and sought out a new wielder. This is why using the AEC on an inhabited planet, despite knowing that it would destroy all of Japan, was seriously considered. At least, in the subbed version of the anime, this is how I interpreted some things they said.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby claymade » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:33 am

Wyrd wrote:If the book hadn't been stopped, the BoD would have destroyed the planet before the it self destructed and sought out a new wielder. This is why using the AEC on an inhabited planet, despite knowing that it would destroy all of Japan, was seriously considered. At least, in the subbed version of the anime, this is how I interpreted some things they said.

Which turned into a rather glaring case of protagonist-centered morality. Chrono wasn't willing to kill Hayate to stop the Book of Darkness before it activated, but he was perfectly willing to magi-nuke millions of faceless civilians. Could you explain to me again how your "not attacking the innocent" speech to Graham doesn't apply to them, Chrono?
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Uldihaa » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:08 am

claymade wrote:Which turned into a rather glaring case of protagonist-centered morality. Chrono wasn't willing to kill Hayate to stop the Book of Darkness before it activated, but he was perfectly willing to magi-nuke millions of faceless civilians. Could you explain to me again how your "not attacking the innocent" speech to Graham doesn't apply to them, Chrono?


I think it needs to be pointed out that by that point, Hayate was free, the auto-program was going nuts, and it was clearly presented as a last-ditch option. Chrono was not offering it as something he wanted to do, but as something that, unless Nanoha and company came up with an alternative, he'd have no choice but to use. And yes, he probably would have been haunted by this decision later, if they hadn't come up with the transport idea. It's decisions like these that can change a character completely, and is often used for that exactly that.

His desire to not attack an innocent person, which is what Hayate is, to prevent the BoD fully activating was a decision that could have come back to bit him in the ass. Not something all that unusual in series like this. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. He gambled that they could stop the book without sacrificing Hayate. And he won that particular bet.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby claymade » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:32 pm

Uldihaa wrote:Chrono was not offering it as something he wanted to do, but as something that, unless Nanoha and company came up with an alternative, he'd have no choice but to use.

Sure, I didn't mean to imply that he actively wanted to blow up Japan. I'm just pointing out that when the chips are down, the heroes are absolutely willing to themselves make the same sort of "kill some to save even more" decision that was treated as out of the question when Graham tried to make it against one of their own number.

And there's a lot hidden inside that "no choice." Because of course he has a choice.

Initially, he has the choice between trying to stop the Book of Darkness in a way that will kill Hayate, or passing on that opportunity to hope against hope that "something" will happen to make this encounter with the Book end differently than every single other encounter had to date--and knowing that if this hypothetical something doesn't take place the casualty count will go up by eight orders of magnitude.

Subsequently, he has the choice between firing the AeC into a civilian city... or passing on that opportunity to hope against hope that "something" will still come along to make things end differently--and knowing that if this hypothetical something doesn't take place the casualty count will go up by one more order of magnitude.

In either case, it's basically the same kind of choice. In neither case does he really have any reasonable grounds for thinking that the "something" he's hoping for will materialize.

The difference is that when it's one Cute Ill Girl With Lots Of Screen Time vs. hundreds of millions of not-demonstrably-cute-people with no screen time, the correct choice is portrayed as being to hope against hope. On the other hand, when it's just hundreds of millions of extras vs. billions of extras, with the Cute Girl out of danger either way... then the numbers just win.

His desire to not attack an innocent person, which is what Hayate is, to prevent the BoD fully activating was a decision that could have come back to bit him in the ass. Not something all that unusual in series like this. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. He gambled that they could stop the book without sacrificing Hayate. And he won that particular bet.

Well, yes, of course they did win in the end. These are the heroes fighting the book now, so they've got plot armor, like, a mile thick.

It's just that when I see "gambles" like the one in A's it feels like watching a movie that proves that playing the lottery is a valid investment strategy. Because, hey, look! The main character bought one ticket, and he won and it all worked out for him! (Admittedly, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.)
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Uldihaa » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:23 pm

claymade wrote:Sure, I didn't mean to imply that he actively wanted to blow up Japan. I'm just pointing out that when the chips are down, the heroes are absolutely willing to themselves make the same sort of "kill some to save even more" decision that was treated as out of the question when Graham tried to make it against one of their own number.

And there's a lot hidden inside that "no choice." Because of course he has a choice.


Yes, this is what's called the "Good of the Many out ways the good of the one, or few". It's also the most difficult decision a commanding officer can make.

claymade wrote:Initially, he has the choice between trying to stop the Book of Darkness in a way that will kill Hayate, or passing on that opportunity to hope against hope that "something" will happen to make this encounter with the Book end differently than every single other encounter had to date--and knowing that if this hypothetical something doesn't take place the casualty count will go up by eight orders of magnitude.

Subsequently, he has the choice between firing the AeC into a civilian city... or passing on that opportunity to hope against hope that "something" will still come along to make things end differently--and knowing that if this hypothetical something doesn't take place the casualty count will go up by one more order of magnitude.

In either case, it's basically the same kind of choice. In neither case does he really have any reasonable grounds for thinking that the "something" he's hoping for will materialize.


Actually he does have a case for his decision. Before this specific encounter, the TSAB knew virtually nothing about the BoD. However, this time Yuuno was able to discover a tremendous amount about it; enough to convince him to at least try to save Hayate. Also, Graham deliberately provoked Hayate, via his familiars, into a full activation when it became obvious that Chrono just might make contact with the BoD's current host; or he just decided to kick it all off at that time, it's hard to say which one it is*. If you check the manga for A's, it's stated that only 400 pages are needed to make Hayate the full Master, but 666 are needed for full activation. A second point that should be made is that the TSAB, outside of Graham and his familiars, didn't know who the BoD's host was until the night Graham forced it's activation (remember the scene in Hayate's hospital room? That was the first time Nanoha and company knew who the BoD host was, and that only because the Knights were there). At that point, even if he wanted to kill Hayate, he couldn't because it was too late, the BoD was active. Third, Graham is the one that put the lives of Earth at risk by aiding the Knights in completing the BoD and actively hindering the others in making any kind of peaceful contact with the Knights.

And I personally believe that what reduced a proud man into a slumped, scraggly, broken mess was learning all that could have been done with almost no risk at all, if he'd just come forward with what he knew. Keep in mind too, Graham's plan wouldn't have worked, as Chrono pointed out. So he would have sacrificed Hayate for nothing. Personally I find the idea of sacrificing someone for nothing more repugnant than risking the "Many" on a fairly reasonable chance.

Keep in mind that they couldn't even seriously hurt the BoD-possessed Hayate, so the use of the AEC cannon would have been required. Taking a few minutes to at least try something less drastic is something I have no problems with, all things considered. To add to that, in the end there was a sacrifice of a "One" for the "Many"; Reinforce willingly and knowingly sacrificed her current "self" in order to prevent the BoD from ever coming back. :?

I also think it needs to be pointed out that there is no absolute moral authority that is recognized by every single person in the world. Morality is ultimately a personal stance, one that varies from person to person.

So for me, calling the TSAB immoral is a sweeping generalization that ignores that the immorality is purely "in the eye of the beholder".

*EDIT: The sequence of events that Christmas night (might have been Christmas Eve):

Suzuka brings Nanoha and Fate to meet her new friend Hayate in the hospital.

Nanoha and Fate discover that the Knights are also in the same hospital visiting Hayate. Both the Knights and Nanoha/Fate recognize each other, and N/F realize that Hayate must be the mysterious 'Master'. At this point, only the Knights know how many pages are complete.

Confrontation on the hospital roof between Signum/Vita and Nanoha/Fate. Signum reveals that Hayate knows nothing of what they had been doing, and that they were doing it because they believed that it would save her life. Fight starts, and it's shown that even the Knights couldn't remember the BoD's real name.

During fight, N/F ambushed by the disguised Liese twins, locking them in a magical prison-field. Twins use the Book to absorb the Knights. They then disguise themselves as Nanoha and Fate and taunt Hayate into going berserk. Book activates and places Hayate into a deep sleep, then takes over her body and prepares to destroy everything.

N/F escape just as the twins finish taunting Hayate. Their attempts to talk to 'Hayate' fail and a battle breaks out. A barrier is erected to contain the BoD.

At roughly the same time, Chrono ambushes and captures the twins. He then begins to question them. A crowning moment of awesome for him.

N/F continue to battle the BoD, trying to get through to Hayate. BoD powers-up a Super Starlight Breaker, forcing the two to retreat. While trying to get as far away as possible, they see Suzuka and Alisa. They set down and shield them. The two 'normal' girls are then transported out of the immediate battle ground.

Chrono confronts Graham. The admiral then confesses his plan. Roughly at the same time, Fate is absorbed.

Nanoha continues to fight. Yuuno contacts her and tells her that he has a plan to rescue Fate, and possibly Hayate. He instructs Nanoha to hit the BoD with everything she has in a single massive magical attack. She, happily, complies.

Nanoha's attack hits the BoD hard enough that it temporarily loses it's hold on Hayate. She partially awakens.

Fate breaks free of the BoD. Hayate now awake enough to claim Administrator privileges. The corrupted Auto-Defense 'program' is ejected. Hayate fully awakened. She reconstitutes the Knight System.

Chrono arrives with the Durandel, the Device specifically designed to 'Deep-freeze' the BoD.

BoD busy rebuilding itself a physical body, and still weak enough to be contained. Plan to Break it's layered Barriers and Transport it into orbit to be shot by the Arc en Ciel proposed and executed.

Now, considering these events, where is the opportunity for Chrono to attack and seal/kill Hayate? He was never in a position to do so.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby claymade » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:33 am

Uldihaa wrote:Actually he does have a case for his decision. Before this specific encounter, the TSAB knew virtually nothing about the BoD. However, this time Yuuno was able to discover a tremendous amount about it; enough to convince him to at least try to save Hayate.

Did they really learn that much? All I can recall him learning was the book's original name, and some details about its original purpose, but perhaps I'm not remembering something. Was there something they learned that suggested a particular tactic to them that they could actually employ against it?

At that point, even if he wanted to kill Hayate, he couldn't because it was too late, the BoD was active.

I don't think I'm following what you're trying to say. He certainly couldn't have killed her at that point--not because it was too late, but because it was too soon. The whole point--as Graham explained--was to aim for the window of vulnerability just as the BoD was starting to loose control. That was the only time his plan could actually have worked.

Keep in mind too, Graham's plan wouldn't have worked, as Chrono pointed out. So he would have sacrificed Hayate for nothing. Personally I find the idea of sacrificing someone for nothing more repugnant than risking the "Many" on a fairly reasonable chance.

Graham's plan wouldn't have worked... but not for the reasons that Chrono pointed out. All Chrono said was, basically, "no matter how well you hide it, or how well you guard it, someone, someday, somehow, will get greedy for power and release it." Which--even aside from being very dubiously defeatist in and of itself--would still, even in the worst case, beat the ever-living pants off the guaranteed, unstoppable, undelayable reincarnation that the previous approach of AeCing it resulted in.

(Now, the real reason it wouldn't have worked--even if Chrono had gone along with it--was simply because Hayate still would have ended up taking control of the book of Darkness from within, and gotten free of it before it started to lose control, leaving only the defensive program alone to go into that final phase. And, as Shamal pointed out, the sealing probably wouldn't even work on just the defensive program, without the host there as well. It just never would have reached the point where he could have tried.)

Third, Graham is the one that put the lives of Earth at risk by aiding the Knights in completing the BoD and actively hindering the others in making any kind of peaceful contact with the Knights.

Of course he did. He remembers what happened the last time the TSAB thought they could come in and safely contain and secure the BoD. Dead host, dead friend, dead everyone in its vicinity. That was the whole reason he embarked on his quest to find an alternate way to deal with it.

That said, I don't necessarily think that he was right to not go through the proper channels, and try to make his case that way. But I can certainly understand why he did it the way he did.

Uldihaa wrote:You sound like he had at least hours, maybe even days, to make his decision, when he only had a few minutes at most.

Uldihaa wrote:Yes, this is what's called the "Good of the Many out ways the good of the one, or few". It's also the most difficult decision a commanding officer can make.

Indeed, and the source of my pique in this particular instance isn't even all that much that Chrono came down on one side or the other of the many/few question. It's the juxtaposition of the two the choices he makes along that axis--so soon after each other--that really sticks in my craw.

I can understand not being able--or not thinking it's right--to make the "good of the many" call. However, Chrono clearly can make the call. He determines the need to kill hundreds of millions of civilians while showing all the emotion of someone changing their shirt... and yet also tries to take the moral high ground over Graham, rejecting his plan on the grounds that killing Hayate is WRONG. It's the utter disjunction between the two instances that really gets me, more than the individual fact of him supporting one side or the other.

It would--as you say!--be one thing if Chrono were basing his rejection of the sealing plan on the fact that he really knew a reliable way of stopping the BoD without killing Hayate, reliable enough to take to the bank, knowing the hideous massacre that would doubtless ensue if it didn't work. But he doesn't really give that impression at all in his talk with Graham that I can see. And in fact, he talks as though he's committed to not killing Hayate right up past the point where the BoD did lose control, based purely on principle.

In short, he talks as though he has irrevocable principles regarding Hayate, that Graham is in the wrong for violating... but he doesn't seem to extend the same toward the generic masses. And that smells dangerously of a "million is a statistic" vibe to me.

Now, considering these events, where is the opportunity for Chrono to attack and seal/kill Hayate?

Nowhere. That's why I phrased his choice as "the choice between trying to stop the Book of Darkness in a way that will kill Hayate..." It never would have actually happened in any case. They got Hayate out before Graham's plan ever reached the state where it could possibly have been implemented.

It's just about willingness.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Uldihaa » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:01 am

claymade wrote:I can understand not being able--or not thinking it's right--to make the "good of the many" call. However, Chrono clearly can make the call. He determines the need to kill hundreds of millions of civilians while showing all the emotion of someone changing their shirt... and yet also tries to take the moral high ground over Graham, rejecting his plan on the grounds that killing Hayate is WRONG. It's the utter disjunction between the two instances that really gets me, more than the individual fact of him supporting one side or the other.


Killing an innocent person is wrong. How is taking that stance related to being forced to kill millions? Are you saying that Chrono didn't think killing millions was also wrong? In the first, it was something personal; in the later, it was duty and something that might be forced on him. Ballistic missile sub commanders could face that later decision at any time. I'd also point out that beating ones chest and angsting about it all isn't all that wise in a crisis situation. He stated what he'd be forced to do if they didn't come up an idea, not that he was endorsing it.

claymade wrote:It would--as you say!--be one thing if Chrono were basing his rejection of the sealing plan on the fact that he really knew a reliable way of stopping the BoD without killing Hayate, reliable enough to take to the bank, knowing the hideous massacre that would doubtless ensue if it didn't work. But he doesn't really give that impression at all in his talk with Graham that I can see. And in fact, he talks as though he's committed to not killing Hayate right up past the point where the BoD did lose control, based purely on principle.


But I would point out that the TSAB had never been on-site before an activation; they always arrived after it happened , or at least that was what was implied. So being confident one could do something in this particular case, with the knowledge they had, isn't completely unreasonable. Really, it was judgement call by Chrono based on what he knew and believed. Command decisions are rarely 'bankable', particularly in new situations.

Oh, as for plot armor, I find that to be a rather empty criticism since every character that doesn't die in a deadly situation, or where they win against the odds, is plot armor because it's fiction. Plot armor comes with the territory, technically.

If you feel that was immoral, I'll just have to respectively disagree. :)
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Wyrd » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:39 pm

It's just that when I see "gambles" like the one in A's it feels like watching a movie that proves that playing the lottery is a valid investment strategy. Because, hey, look! The main character bought one ticket, and he won and it all worked out for him! (Admittedly, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.)


SPOILER - Show Spoiler
Except in Paycheck, of course. Then, buying a lottery ticket is totally a good investment strategy.


Did they really learn that much? All I can recall him learning was the book's original name, and some details about its original purpose, but perhaps I'm not remembering something. Was there something they learned that suggested a particular tactic to them that they could actually employ against it?


Yuuno states that he thinks he could fix the BoD if he could get to it between it activating and going berserk, in much the same way that Hayate ends up doing, because he would need administrative access.

In defense of Chrono trying to come up with an alternate plan for dealing with Hayate before using the AEC, the AEC takes a couple of minutes to charge, so he really had it both ways there. They were trying to save her while the back-up plan was being prepared. Also, Chrono kept the card that would enable him to put Graham's plan into action until it was no longer a viable option. He didn't like it because it was only a temporary solution, but his biggest problem with Graham's actions was, I think, the fact that the way he manipulated the circumstances prevented them from exploring any other options. If the BoD had been taken into space and zapped with the AEC before going berserk, it would have become separated from Hayate and moved to a new master, but before it reached that point they would have had time to research the book and try to come up with an alternative solution. Given that Nanoha and Fate were drained without lasting consequences, they could likely have had mages voluntarily be drained less severely to bring the book up to administrative capacity without hurting anyone. It would take more mages and a little more time, but the TSAB seems to have plenty of lesser mages who could have been asked to volunteer for such a program. There are just so many alternatives that were not explored because Graham gave them no opportunity to do so.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby claymade » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:50 am

Wyrd wrote:Yuuno states that he thinks he could fix the BoD if he could get to it between it activating and going berserk, in much the same way that Hayate ends up doing, because he would need administrative access.

Okay, so they did have a plan. I hadn't recalled that exchange, and when I checked Chrono's conversation with Graham it didn't give me the impression that he had a particular one. That they did is a definite plus.

And actually, the precise nature of their plan brings my core point to the fore in a much clearer way, one that I didn't expect. Because as it turns out, the potential window for their plan and Graham's plan was completely disjoint. They couldn't have sealed the BoD until Yuuno's fix had either worked, or failed. So it was, in fact, not a choice at all between the repair attempt and the sealing--but rather between the sealing and the AeC, for which one should be the "Plan B".

Basically, then, what I was saying just comes down to a simple question: had Yuuno's plan failed, would Chrono have been willing to seal the BoD as it was starting to go berserk, knowing Hayate still "won't be a horrible criminal", as he said to Graham with respect to that question?

Honestly, that wasn't really the impression I got from their conversation about such an action. Especially since after that, Chrono starts to leave without even attempting to have the seal ready as a backup, despite how they were begging him to do so. It's only when Graham flat-out hands him the Durandal (unasked-for) that he takes it, to use as he unspecifiedly sees fit.

Still, I guess you could say that Chrono was... I don't know. Distracted? And/or it didn't even occur to him that Graham might just give him the seal if asked? Was so worried he wasn't even thinking about backups? None seem the most intuitive read of the situation to me, but I suppose they're not ruled out either.

At any rate, given the state things had progressed to by the time he got on the scene, there's no way to know for sure one way or another what his reaction would have been if Hayate had still been joined with the BoD when it started going berserk. I'll just say that the tone and events felt like they were implying, to me, that he wouldn't have sealed her, which would be (if that were actually the case) the sort of protagonist-centered morality I was talking about.

Still, there's grey area for interpretation, especially since they did, in fact, at least have an overall plan versus just hoping to come up with one.

Uldihaa wrote:Killing an innocent person is wrong. How is taking that stance related to being forced to kill millions? Are you saying that Chrono didn't think killing millions was also wrong?

It's pretty clear that he didn't, in that situation, given how he defended it to the others. He seemed to fully believe that it was, in fact, the right decision to make all things considered, not a wrong one.

Uldihaa wrote:Oh, as for plot armor, I find that to be a rather empty criticism since every character that doesn't die in a deadly situation, or where they win against the odds, is plot armor because it's fiction. Plot armor comes with the territory, technically.

Well, sure, everything ultimately happens because of plot (though in some stories it's better disguised than in others). My point was just that--for that very reason--the fact that "he won that particular bet" feels largely immaterial to me. I mean, the odds on a given bet "in story" could be fifty bajillion to one, and the author could still make them win, but the "actual" consequences wouldn't mean that making such a bet in the "real world" would be advisable.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Uldihaa » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:46 pm

claymade wrote:It's pretty clear that he didn't, in that situation, given how he defended it to the others. He seemed to fully believe that it was, in fact, the right decision to make all things considered, not a wrong one.


Having gone back and watched those last episodes, and wow the climax is actually over four episodes long (of a 13 episode series!). It must have been torture to have to wait a week for these last episodes :P . Anyway, moving on.

Chrono only ever mentions the legality of what Graham was doing (which surprised me because I had thought he confronted him on the idea of sacrificing an innocent), pointing out that Hayate wasn't some horrible criminal, and thus the TSAB couldn't act against her. The twins point out that that same law is what ultimately led to Chrono's father's death. He then mentions that people's lust for power would eventually lead someone to the BoD again, implying that the cycle would simply be delayed for a time. Chrono goes on to state that he was concerned about what was happening and excused himself. That's when Graham gives him the Durandel.

He arrives back on Earth just after Hayate recreates her Knights. He mentions using Durandel to freeze the BoD first, then he mentions using the AEC, and it's pretty clear he's simply doing what he's supposed to do i.e. bluntly state the options he's aware of. He then states that he's asking the Mistress of the Book and it's Knights for their opinions, thoughts and ideas. Something Graham never did. They object to both plans, and he mentions that the Captain doesn't like Plan B either. Yuuno warns about what the berserk BoD can do, and Chrono points out that it's way more than they could possibly do stopping it. In other words, no matter what they choose to do, the BoD would do far more if not stopped. They are then warned that they have less than 15 minutes to think of something. The Knights admit to not having any ideas, then Arf gets impatient and asks if they can just blow it up. That leads to the break and transport idea. Chrono never shows anything but reluctance for using the AEC while the BoD is on the surface. He also doesn't disagree when the others object to it.

I'm not seeing the moral hypocrisy here.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby claymade » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:26 pm

:oops: I must confess that I am unable to discern--with confidence, at least--from which direction you're addressing the issue. If you'll humor me in making things a little more explicit, I'd like to try and nail down more clearly just which side you're coming at this from.

So if, when Chrono arrived on the scene, he had discovered that Nanoha & co. had failed to extract Hayate from the book, and it was about to go berserk, are you contending with your recap that he...

A) ...would have been willing to seal Hayate?

B) ...would not have been willing to use the AeC on the surface?

C) ...would have used the AeC rather than the sealing, but not been hypocritical in doing so?

And remember, reluctance and unwillingness are not at all the same thing. He's clearly reluctant to use the AeC when he talks about it, but he seems (to me, at least) just as clearly willing.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Uldihaa » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm

claymade wrote::oops: I must confess that I am unable to discern--with confidence, at least--from which direction you're addressing the issue. If you'll humor me in making things a little more explicit, I'd like to try and nail down more clearly just which side you're coming at this from.

So if, when Chrono arrived on the scene, he had discovered that Nanoha & co. had failed to extract Hayate from the book, and it was about to go berserk, are you contending with your recap that he...

A) ...would have been willing to seal Hayate?

B) ...would not have been willing to use the AeC on the surface?

C) ...would have used the AeC rather than the sealing, but not been hypocritical in doing so?

And remember, reluctance and unwillingness are not at all the same thing. He's clearly reluctant to use the AeC when he talks about it, but he seems (to me, at least) just as clearly willing.



I'm saying that he never said he would or wouldn't do anything. You stated that you had a problem with him condemning Graham as immoral for being willing to sacrifice an innocent, while being willing to sacrifice millions himself. I'm just pointing out that he never actually said that. So I withdraw that Chrono was moral, or immoral, since his decision appears to be based on the legality of it all and he never makes his stance clear either way. I completely mis-remembered the scene in Graham's office. That's my bad :oops: .

He pointed out that it might be necessary to use the cannon, even if it meant millions died. When Nanoha and Fate objected, Yuuno implied that it was either millions of victims, or the entire planet being killed. Even Fate and Nanoha don't much of a response to that, except to slump and appear anxious. Again, stating an option is not endorsing it.

And there is no way of knowing what he would have done, since he was never developed enough as a character. The situation you present is simply not valid since it was not what happened in the series. Chrono was never a main character. At best he was a supporting character, and thus never had the screen time for any body to be able to reasonably predict what he would do in 'What If' scenarios.

So all we end up doing is going around in circles of pure speculation based on a vaguely defined character in situations that never happened. It would be pointless to try to speculate on the actions of a shallow character.

From what we are shown, Chrono comes across as a very 'By-The-Book' type; he's not all that fond of bending the rules. He's implied to have changed by StrikerS though, judging by his conversations with Hayate and Carim. I got the impression he'd be willing to bend the rules if he honestly thought there was a good reason to do so. Lindy, on the other hand, seems more willing to bend the rules right from the start, though only so far, as shown by her reaction to Nanoha and Yuuna going to help Fate with those 6 Jewel Seeds; she's reprimands them rather sternly.
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