Morality and the TSAB?

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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Wyrd » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:49 pm

First, I've only seen the first two seasons because I can't get xvid's to play on my computer for some reason, and that is the only format I've managed to find the later seasons in. I am quite disappointed in this. As such, I have nothing to say about how they acted in later seasons that is not directly pulled from this conversation.

I am not now nor ever under the impression they are military hardware. It merely seemed that him having Raising Heart made no sense except in the form of being convenient to the plot so he could give it to Nanoha. His own Magic would not seem to be on the same scale as her's, and as such, why would he have a device that powerful.


When Nanoha first gets Raging Heart, some things are mentioned that are, as far as I am aware, never brought up again. One is that Raging Heart was Yuuno's personal intelligent device that he transferred control of to Nanoha. I've gotten the impression from the show that Raging Heart is only so powerful because Nanoha herself is so powerful. Yuuno couldn't use it at the start of the series because his injuries left him too weak to even assume human form for quite a while, though he evidently recovers mostly by the episode where he creates a zone so Nanoha can battle the giant cat without drawing attention. This doesn't explain why Yuuno never gets another device; maybe his skill had progressed enough from when he first got it that it was little more than a calculator for him, a crutch that he no longer needed, and he just lacked the raw power to access the higher level functions that make them necessary for combat mages. We know nothing that I am aware of about how Yuuno got it in the first place. Maybe he had family connections that got it for him, maybe he was testing out the new design, maybe, maybe, maybe...

Probably has something to do with RH's sealing form. He wasn't intending to use it for giant fuck-off beam spells, he just needed a way to hang on to the Jewel Seeds without setting them off. It's possible that you need a device of RH's power to hold those kinds of Lost Logia.


This was posted while I was typing, but I like this reason for why he needs a device advanced enough that he can't use all of its functions.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:27 pm

That second one is called "resisting arrest", and is grounds for detainment all by itself in real life (I think the first one qualifies too). And as I said before, she also provided Precia with the Jewel Seeds, which makes her an accomplice. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia on the subject, italics are mine:

Only if you, or Fate, recognized their authority.

That's your failing for not being properly informed.

Sigh... No... thats your failing for having a belief like that. As I've stated, it sounds like the manga is putting a different spin on things to make the TSAB look better in eyes of reader... if that is the case, and that is your source, there is no point to discussing this.

First, I've only seen the first two seasons because I can't get xvid's to play on my computer for some reason, and that is the only format I've managed to find the later seasons in.

That leaves you hanging... most looks into the corrupt MidChildan society and the younger cast comes from the StrikerS season.

Oddly... my fansubbed copy is in MKV... I'd buy it, but as of last check, it was not available in the U.S.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:53 pm

Only if you, or Fate, recognized their authority.

If it were that easy then anyone IRL could avoid arrest simply by disavowing the authority of their local government.

Sigh... No... thats your failing for having a belief like that. As I've stated, it sounds like the manga is putting a different spin on things to make the TSAB look better in eyes of reader... if that is the case, and that is your source, there is no point to discussing this.

I think you misunderstand; the Nanoha manga isn't an alternate universe to the Nanoha anime series, like the Sailor Moon anime and manga are, it's a supplementary series that fills in the gaps between the episodes. Everything that happens in the manga is canon to the anime series, oftentimes it's elaborating on events that are only referred to offhandedly in the main series. For instance the first chapter of the A's manga shows a typical day for Nanoha in the time gap between the first and second seasons; it shows off what kind of hellish training she goes through to be as good as she is, and the chapter ends with her performing a test firing of the Starlight Breaker EX variant (the one she used in A's episode 2 with the ten-second charge-up period). The second chapter shows Fate taking the exam to become a Contract Mage by dueling Chrono. One of the chapters in the StrikerS manga shows how Subaru and Teana met, and another details the start of the Relic incident and Team Nanoha's first encounter with Jail's gadget drones. And so on and so forth. Just because something doesn't appear in the anime doesn't mean it didn't happen. The exception is the 1st Movie Manga, which is explicitly an alternate universe from both the movie and the main series.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby CRBWildcat » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:13 pm

I'm not sure if I'd put it quite the same way, but I agree with this. When discussing something, it's a good idea to consider everything that's available on the topic (not just something a person does or doesn't have) before forming any major opinions on it. Otherwise, it leads to a lot of wasted bytes when both sides start to deride each other for things that they believe are incorrect.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:07 pm

A couple points.

1. I stated what I have and have not seen from the get go in regards to MGLN canon material.

2. If the MGLN manga is a superset or supplement of the anime, as you two are stating, then the anime should still stand on it's own and my views still perfectly valid. That makes it like the Tenchi manga which uses the original OAV as the base. *However*, from what has been stated here in this thread as arguements against my views. Currently it sounds like the manga is deliberately undermining or cover up the anime's darker viewpoints of TSAB actions. If Cromartis's views are accurate that is. If so... that in my eyes makes the manga for this series is a branch off, not a superset or supplement at all.

And if *that* is the case, the manga is worthless to me as anime continuity material... It is a different canon continuity, not the same. Not like Tenchi OAV/manga at all, but instead more like Ranma anime/manga continuities... both equally canon, but different continuities.

Thus validating my own statements to questioning that very possibility several posts back.

Bummer.

EDIT: I will make a post in the other thread to note it is *anime* continuity only, of which I refer to a dark TSAB being recommended.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:57 pm

2. If the MGLN manga is a superset or supplement of the anime, as you two are stating, then the anime should still stand on it's own and my views still perfectly valid. That makes it like the Tenchi manga which uses the original OAV as the base. *However*, from what has been stated here in this thread as arguements against my views. Currently it sounds like the manga is deliberately undermining or cover up the anime's darker viewpoints of TSAB actions. If Cromartis's views are accurate that is. If so... that in my eyes makes the manga for this series is a branch off, not a superset or supplement at all.

And if *that* is the case, the manga is worthless to me as anime continuity material... It is a different canon continuity, not the same. Not like Tenchi OAV/manga at all, but instead more like Ranma anime/manga continuities... both equally canon, but different continuities.

In other words you're so determined to hate the TSAB that you'll ignore any source that portrays them in a positive light.

Yeah, I think I'm done debating with you.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:05 pm

Comartemis wrote:In other words you're so determined to hate the TSAB that you'll ignore any source that portrays them in a positive light.

Not true. But think that if you want.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:17 pm

PCHeintz72 wrote:Not true. But think that if you want.

Really? Then please enlighten me, oh wise and open-minded one, why you think it's so important to keep the manga and the anime separate. I'm especially interested in this part two posts back about "deliberately undermining or covering up" the anime's portrayal of the bureau. You make it sound like the author is conspiring to make them look like the good guys... except that for one thing the author of all the manga is Tsuzuki Masaki, who wrote the script for all three seasons of the anime, and for another, that's exactly what they are!
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:28 pm

[quote=Arty]
I notice you completely disregarded the post I made regarding this point. I'll post it again for your benefit, Tiger.
[/quote]

I was greeted by OMGWTFHUEG walls of text and quote omnislashes. Your commentary got lost in it. No biggie.

(I've noticed it is prudent NOT to get into Quote Omnislash wars if I don't want to spend the next week arguing straight up.)
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:36 pm

No offense taken, I figured it was something like that.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Wyrd » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:00 pm

Only if you, or Fate, recognized their authority.



If it were that easy then anyone IRL could avoid arrest simply by disavowing the authority of their local government.


In defense of this point, Earth is outside of the TSAB's jurisdiction. If an Iraqi police officer tried to arrest me in America, and I didn't cooperate, I would not be guilty of resisting arrest any more than I would be for resisting a 'citizen's arrest.' Conversely, I could resist an American police officer in Iraq. The exceptions to this are when the foreign force is invited in, in which case they are temporarily under the jurisdiction of local forces. TSAB was not invited to Earth, they just showed up in the first season because they detected dangerous energy levels and were acting under emergency rules. If the Knights from season 2 had stuck to hunting on Earth, all of their crimes would have been outside of TSAB jurisdiction. Since they commited crimes within TSAB jurisdiction, they are allowed to pursue them to their base of operations.

Note that this is a matter of 'legally' not 'it would be safe to do so.' Refusing to let yourself be arrested by someone with a gun can sometimes lead to being shot, even if they have no legal right to arrest you.

In defense to TSAB's treatment of Fate: They found her not guilty of the crimes, mostly because she was a minor being controlled by her mother, but that doesn't mean that she shouldn't have a trial. The 6 months she stayed on Midchilda at the home of Lindy was while her case was under review. Not keeping her in a cell says a lot about what they expected the conclusion to be from the beginning, but the trial was still necessary to decide if there should be any punishments or restrictions placed on her.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:17 pm

In defense of this point, Earth is outside of the TSAB's jurisdiction. If an Iraqi police officer tried to arrest me in America, and I didn't cooperate, I would not be guilty of resisting arrest any more than I would be for resisting a 'citizen's arrest.' Conversely, I could resist an American police officer in Iraq. The exceptions to this are when the foreign force is invited in, in which case they are temporarily under the jurisdiction of local forces. TSAB was not invited to Earth, they just showed up in the first season because they detected dangerous energy levels and were acting under emergency rules. If the Knights from season 2 had stuck to hunting on Earth, all of their crimes would have been outside of TSAB jurisdiction. Since they commited crimes within TSAB jurisdiction, they are allowed to pursue them to their base of operations.

Ah, but you forget: Fate wasn't only operating off of Earth, she was operating out of the Garden of Time as well. Depending on how the bureau interprets these things, a structure the size of an asteroid just hanging in dimension space may qualify as a structure in "international waters" so to speak, which would mean that the TSAB has universal jurisdiction over Precia and Fate, if I understand the legalese correctly.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:06 am

And it gets even more complicated too.

Earth in this setting is considered 'backwater' or 'undeveloped' by the TSAB. Much the same way we'd see a third world nation here.

From a political standpoint, the TSAB doesn't recognize EARTH's authority. They have rules in place that say 'respect its privacy' but should anything exceed the bounds of Earth in terms of dimensional/spatial events, they will throw that out the window.

There's a quote:

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
- Mao Tse-Tung

Which essentially says that any political entity will exercise control where it has the power to do so. In this case, Earth is in no position to tell the TSAB to Eff Off. So the TSAB can make whatever policy it feels like, and assign whatever Jurisdiction it sees fit.

It then falls to the internal watchdog groups, and the actual morality of the people in the field to shape the final policy.

In the BoD incident, the very fact that an AeC orbital strike and resulting collatteral was even suggested (and the ship even EQUIPPED for it in the first place) shows that if all else fails, jurisdiction means absolutely DICK if it can protect the interests of the TSAB. (Though the people in the field didn't see it as protecting political interest, just the lesser of evils kind of decision making.) This is typical behavior of any political entity, not just the TSAB. As a rule, political entities are selfish. So from the start, you've got a default value of morally gray. How low the RGB of that gray depends on how many skeletons are in the closet. How rife the internal corruption, and how many unsafe deals are going on.
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:22 am

In the BoD incident, the very fact that an AeC orbital strike and resulting collatteral was even suggested (and the ship even EQUIPPED for it in the first place) shows that if all else fails, jurisdiction means absolutely DICK if it can protect the interests of the TSAB. (Though the people in the field didn't see it as protecting political interest, just the lesser of evils kind of decision making.) This is typical behavior of any political entity, not just the TSAB. As a rule, political entities are selfish. So from the start, you've got a default value of morally gray. How low the RGB of that gray depends on how many skeletons are in the closet. How rife the internal corruption, and how many unsafe deals are going on.

But you said yourself that Earth is a backwater. What interests exactly is the TSAB protecting by stopping a Lost Logia from blowing it up, considering that they already know that just Arcing the thing won't prevent the BoD from reincarnating?
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Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Pale Wolf » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:33 pm

Oy. Things are looking a bit heated in here.

Comartemis, I don't care how ill-informed you think Heintz is. He's a member of this forum, and is to be treated with at least a basic level of respect.

Everyone, cool off, it's an anime series, the world's not gonna end just because you didn't defend your interpretation of it aggressively enough.
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