Morality and the TSAB?

Talk about other General Anime and Manga Series here

Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:28 pm

Continuing from the best/worst at being bad to prevent thread-jacking:

PCHeintz72 wrote:Ehhh... Easily... I took notes as I watched all three seasons. And after evaluating a bunch of their decisions and actions... I've come to the conclusion they could care less about anything unless it is in relation to themselves...

Oh, so that's why they just left the Jewel Seeds on Earth instead of sending a cruiser out to make sure they didn't bust up a non-administrated planet, huh?

They are lenient toward their own upper management even when it is known they are doing/have done wrongs

Gil Graham's only crime was impeding the investigation during the Book of Darkness incident. His plot to seal Hayate and put an end to the Book's rampages is of dubious legality but it would result in one life being sacrificed to save -- potentially -- billions in the future. If nothing else, his intentions were pure and he's no more morally bankrupt than, say, Sailors Uranus and Neptune, and are in line with the bureau's track record of leniency towards those who committed crimes with good intentions or who regret their actions. His status as an admiral had nothing to do with it.

Now Regius and the High Council are another story altogether, and their motives don't excuse their crimes, but none of them were alive to be punished by the time their deeds came to light so you can't say this about them either. When Runessa Magnus -- a TSAB Enforcer, one of their own -- set the Mariage loose on Mid-Childa during Sound Stage X, she goes to prison for it.

and are prejudiced toward non-Midchildans.

Evidence, please.

They only get involved in outside events if it affects them.

Repeat of your first point.

They are willing to throw non-members to the wolves and do enforced conscription, and do not care about their own grunts and field agents by enforcing a system of limiters.

By "non-members" I assume you mean planets that aren't a part of the bureau, like Earth? You're repeating yourself again.

Forced conscription is only ever brought up in the first-season novel, which isn't canon so far as I know. Their treatment of former criminals like Fate and the Numbers is an alternative to jail time which none of the villains are forced to take (Fate is mentioned as having been completely pardoned for what she did, and she initially only became a Contract Mage so she'd be able to see Nanoha a little sooner). Lutecia actually refuses that offer after the events of StrikerS and according to SSX she and her mother are living on what is technically a penal colony but what looks more like a vacation world (in point of fact, Nanoha, Vivio, and several of Vivio's friends actually do take a vacation there during the ViVid manga). She's basically imprisoned in name only; she and her mother live in a lakeside vacation lodge, they have no limitations on packages or visitors, and the only restriction placed on Lutecia's movements is that she's not allowed to leave the planet.

And what exactly do the limiters have to do with the grunts? They only get used when high-level mages are working together, partially to dissuade headhunting between units but also to make sure the mages in question don't warp space-time by sheer magical output.

They seem to believe they have jurisdiction no matter where they are, even if they likely do not. They made not one decision I liked in any of the three seasons, and at points actually saw why the bad guys were forced to rebel and sympathized.

Examples?
Currently Watching: Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu
Currently Playing: Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep
Currently Reading: Sora no Otoshimono

KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End.
Comartemis
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4559
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:28 pm

Ooo... an argument from somewhere...


I'll throw my own oppinions out there.


The TSAB is an internally corrupted bureaucracy. Rife with several undesirable working practices... Examples include.

1: Nepotism.
Chrono under direct supervision of his own mother and later RF6 as a whole via their whole family ties kind of arrangement.
Nepotism is a professional no-no. Even low end service sector companies know better. If there are/were special circumstances, they are not pointed out by anyone. Either way however, in proffessional organizations there are explicit rules pertaining to status and position between members of a family. Chrono's position is one that's especially important because it reprisents a conflict of interest right on the spot. His mother's sending him into combat. Her emotional attachment to her son generates a bias that will cloud her judgement and correct grasp of a dangerous situation. This could be catastrophic. In the real world, where people are rational, this would not be permitted.

Another point of contention for Nepotism and Conflict of Interest involves the whole Book of Darkness incident. Considering Graham's involvement and loss of a friend, as well as Chrono and Lindy's loss of their father figure in Clyde. A point of conflict of interest was created when they were allowed to head the investigation. Real organizations don't place people who are directly affected by a case in charge of said case. Graham, Lindy, and Chrono would have been kept clear of the case and a competent alternate unit deployed.

2: Children in COMBAT.
I don't care how smart the kid is, or how powerful their magical skills are. You don't send a 9 year old into combat. An example of this happening in anything ressembling reality would be a child soldier in some place like, oh Somolia. Likewise, we don't recruit children who are still in GRADESCHOOL to serve and protect as part of a magical SWAT team. Training children to control special talents is one thing. Turning around and sending them into a hostile situation is another. If any real mother in the world found out this was going on, she'd have a heart-attack.

Not to critisize the show directly... It's fiction. So the issues that would have actually come up because of the above points were handwaved away...

However, cleaming the TSAB is a nice moral place to be is sugar coating some very dangerous issues. The existence of [S]SEELE[/S] the Council pulling the strings, and the number of illegal black projects going on between higher-ups in the chain of command is further evidence of ongoing corruption on top of already dangerous practices.
Ernest 'Admiral Tigerclaw' Hart
OWNER: Samurai Penguin Studios
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/SamuraiPenguinStudio
AdmiralTigerclaw
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 285
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:47 pm

I hope this is coherent... it is quite late and very tired... Admiral TigerClaw made some good points. I edited my response to not overlap his points as much... made things easier on my end somewhat.

Basically... I came away from the anime with the view of the TSAB as being similar to Stargate. Unlike other shows... that series is more along the lines of them being the underdogs, as such 'moral right for all' takes a back seat to 'what is right for our best interests'. This is different from other anime as well, like 'Sailor Moon'. Their overall actions can be somewhat viewed as not evil, but definately not good. And in doing the right things, they are generally for the wrong reasons.

I exempt the main line characters of Hayate/Nanoha/Fate, as they clearly are not part of the mainline thinking going on, nor brought up under traditional Midchildan values, but are mostly hampered by in in attempting to do good.

That view contributed to me recommending them the way I did in the thread my comments were pulled from.

Now... some specifics.

Oh, so that's why they just left the Jewel Seeds on Earth instead of sending a cruiser out to make sure they didn't bust up a non-administrated planet, huh?

They sent a cruiser out for the investigating of the missing ship and lost contact with their agent on site (Yuuno). They wanted the jewel seeds because it was feared that they would be dangerous to them, TSAB/Midchilda... not anyone else.

Not only was Yuuno very young for such a important job solo, he in turn entrusted a magical device to another individual, a citizen of another planet, at least as young as he was. I note as far as can recall, he was never punished for that act.

It is important to note that the TSAB immediately assumed they had authority, and were the only ones qualified and warranted to have them. It was not enough that Nanoha and Fate were both collecting them and taking them off the field.... *They* had to be the ones in control of it.

It should be noted by Stars they've proven just how bad their track record is in regards ot the Jewel seeds.

Gil Graham's only crime was impeding the investigation during the Book of Darkness incident.

That is a pretty narrow view of his acts... And being far too generous in his morals and interpreting his rights to do them.

Here is a man that:
- manipulated events in an elaborate plot to support a girl so that he could set her up to be assassinated and murdered.
- lied to his own personnel,
- allowed TSAB personnel and other alien innocents to be attacked by agents he knew of.
- knew the 'enemy's' location from the start but said nothing
- Then there were his familiars/assistants... whom assaulted both Nanoha and Chrono.

And what does he get for all of the above... honorable retirement to a nice post mountain home on Earth, and he still retains at least some influence, since he is apparently the initial backer for Hayate being in the TSAB at all.

Also in comparison for TSAB Justice:

What does Hayate get at the end of her set up and the honor of living through the assassination attempt? Enforced recruitment into the TSAB with the Knights, 1 whom was set up, and the others whom were under the direction of corrupted magic.

What did Fate get at the end of season 1? Considering she was tortured physically and manipulated mentally by her own mother, and whom the mother admitted to doing with the entire bridge as witness to the admission? 6 months confinement. Not charges dropped? Considering all the main acts were done by Precia, and Nanoha I doubted would press charges.

bureau's track record of leniency toward those who committed crimes with good intentions or who regret their actions. His status as an admiral had nothing to do with it.

Now there is a good thing to be publicly known for (sarcasm). Allowing assassination attempts so long as it is in the 'good' of the 'people'. Of course... the people in this case being 'MidChildan' people.

Now Regius and the High Council are another story altogether, and their motives don't excuse their crimes, but none of them were alive to be punished by the time their deeds came to light so you can't say this about them either. When Runessa Magnus --

Snorts... This does not excuse all those that allowed them to keep power knowing just how they were... the 3 admirals come to mind, the press, public, public forum council, and other generals, heck his own assistant did not like his actions and still backed him. The ones that survived should almost be forced to resign over their lack of action in the case.

Sailors Uranus and Neptune

Different series, but while I dislike some their actions and actually preferred some of them to Sailor Moon's actions in anime, it was clear they were deliberately acting without orders. That cannot be stated here, since these guys actions were mostly approved. Seemingly silently after the fact in Graham's case based on light sentence, and the main power brokers were actually backing Gaiz.

When Runessa Magnus -- a TSAB Enforcer, one of their own -- set the Mariage loose on Mid-Childa during Sound Stage X, she goes to prison for it.

Never saw the sound stage stuff, only the anime series.

Evidence, please.

Gaiz's comments at a minimum, and it was clear some of the other personnel seemed to feel that way, whether it was against Hayate specifically, or against all non-Midchildan is something I do not think can be determined through the canon material. Considering how much backing Hayate needed, it seemed clear there was quite a bit of resistance to her being in charge of a unit. I note none of these power blocks behind her ever wanted to be publicly associated with her.

Forced conscription is only ever brought up in the first-season novel, which isn't canon so far as I know.

Know nothing of the novels... I was referring to the sly way they got Nanoha to join due to her having Raising Heart bonded to her. Which should be noted was done at the direction of Yuuno... So why was he never brought up on charges for giving it to her. What would the TSAB have done if she said 'screw you' and refused to not only join, but refuse the monitoring of her status as being for her own good despite the fact she is a earth citizen at that point and not under their jurisdiction.

(Fate is mentioned as having been completely pardoned for what she did, and she initially only became a Contract Mage so she'd be able to see Nanoha a little sooner).

No.... she was still forced into confinement on that ship for crimes she did not commit for 6 months... So would she have been trapped on the planet (probably Midchilda) when they let her go if she had not joined? Or would they have actually been kind enough to at least return her from where they took her.

And what exactly do the limiters have to do with the grunts

The limiters are an incredibly stupid idea unless you *want* to place your agents in danger when they go out in the field (I can see that appealing to Gaiz and even the council)... It is an incredibly callous and carefree idea considering the ones doing the risks are not the ones in control of the limiters. I actually approve of their use on mages and combat personnel *in training* or for *medical reasons* ... but not remotely for top ranked active duty personnel. And I like that only the higher ups can undo it, and only a limited number of times... Some of those higher ups are not even mages. I have to wonder how many agents they lose dealing such stupid tactics.

Examples?

The council actually backed Scragelli, made him into what he was, knowing how unstable he was... then to just pull the backing and attempt to make him a scapegoat.... Not good. Likewise they set up Gaiz, though he knew they were going to double cross him. No wonder they went rogue. Yes they did bad, but they were ultimately doing it for the good of the world... so I have to wonder... under the TSAB policies you state are in place... shouldn't them, the council all be pardoned and let go? Your own earlier comment suggests the TSAB will be light on those doing bad things for the good of the people... After all they *all* thought they were doing the right thing.
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2705
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:06 am

The TSAB is an internally corrupted bureaucracy. Rife with several undesirable working practices...

That's what happens when you try to merge magical girl and sci-fi genres without doing your world-building beforehand. You get people who come in and pick apart your mistakes and don't take into account the fact that you don't know how the hell a military is supposed to operate. And then of course they harp on those mistakes at every given opportunity and write fanfics about how immensely stupid the organization is with no respect for the fact that said organization is supposed to be competent in-universe. Just as an example.

Basically... I came away from the anime with the view of the TSAB as being similar to Stargate.

And I came away with the impression that they were built from the ground up (on a meta level, not necessarily in-universe) to be an organization that an idealistic and unambiguously heroic magical girl could join without having to compromise between her orders and her ideals or her ethics. I place the TSAB on a moral level just slightly below unambiguously heroic groups like the Gutsy Galaxy Guard; in short, the organization is founded on principles of "protect and serve" and unless it is specifically stated otherwise, an individual who belongs to that group strives to live up to those principles and possesses a heroic character by default.

Not only was Yuuno very young for such a important job solo, he in turn entrusted a magical device to another individual, a citizen of another planet, at least as young as he was. I note as far as can recall, he was never punished for that act.

Yuuno is a civilian archaeologist who went after the Jewel Seeds on his own, he's not connected to the bureau until he takes over the Infinity Library.

It is important to note that the TSAB immediately assumed they had authority, and were the only ones qualified and warranted to have them. It was not enough that Nanoha and Fate were both collecting them and taking them off the field.... *They* had to be the ones in control of it.

Again, Nanoha and Fate are civilians, where the TSAB is a government institution with authority over several worlds and so far are the only government agency that has been shown to operate on an interdimensional scale. They ARE the only ones qualified and warranted to have these kind of items.

It should be noted by Stars they've proven just how bad their track record is in regards ot the Jewel seeds.

Jail was most likely getting the Jewel Seeds from his contacts inside the bureau, or otherwise just stealing them like he was with the relics.

Here is a man that:
- manipulated events in an elaborate plot to support a girl so that he could set her up to be assassinated and murdered.
- lied to his own personnel,
- allowed TSAB personnel and other alien innocents to be attacked by agents he knew of.
- knew the 'enemy's' location from the start but said nothing
- Then there were his familiars/assistants... whom assaulted both Nanoha and Chrono.

You leave out that he supported her financially and made sure she could live comfortably until his scheme went into action. That's no small chunk of change considering Hayate had her own house in Japan, land of ungodly property values.

What does Hayate get at the end of her set up and the honor of living through the assassination attempt? Enforced recruitment into the TSAB with the Knights, 1 whom was set up, and the others whom were under the direction of corrupted magic.

Hayate was not "enforced" to do anything, she had the option to let the Wolks take the blame for her and she decided to take responsibility as their master. Seriously dude, read the manga.

What did Fate get at the end of season 1? Considering she was tortured physically and manipulated mentally by her own mother, and whom the mother admitted to doing with the entire bridge as witness to the admission? 6 months confinement. Not charges dropped? Considering all the main acts were done by Precia, and Nanoha I doubted would press charges.

Not "confinement", the manga shows her training with Chrono for at least part of that time and undergoing the test to become a Contract Mage. She was staying with the Harlaown family, who at that point were the only responsible adults in the bureau who cared about her while they testified in her defense at her trial. And they cared enough to adopt her when they were done, if you remember. You make it sound like she was in prison that whole time.

Now there is a good thing to be publicly known for (sarcasm). Allowing assassination attempts so long as it is in the 'good' of the 'people'. Of course... the people in this case being 'MidChildan' people.

People being everyone, you mean. Contrary to the image presented in StrikerS, Mid-Childa is not the be-all and end-all of the TSAB, it's one planet out of at least 61 in the bureau's sphere of influence (the ones that've been listed so far are Mid-Childa at #1, Vaizen at #3, Alzas at #6, Fedikia at #12, Ruwella at #23, and Supools -- the penal colony Lutecia is staying on -- at #61), and there's at least 97 unadministrated worlds in their territory as well, with Easter being 18 and Earth being 97. That's a lot of worlds for the book to destroy and a lot of innocent people who might've died if Graham hadn't done something. Shame he wasn't genre-savvy enough to know he was in a magical girl series and the cynical route doesn't work in this genre).

Snorts... This does not excuse all those that allowed them to keep power knowing just how they were... the 3 admirals come to mind, the press, public, public forum council, and other generals, heck his own assistant did not like his actions and still backed him. The ones that survived should almost be forced to resign over their lack of action in the case.

Did you not get the message that the high council's very existence was a conspiracy? There were only a select few in the bureau who even knew the brains existed in their present forms before Due assassinated them, and there's a line in either the ViVid manga or SSX that mentions reforms in the bureau that probably got rid of their co-conspirators.

That cannot be stated here, since these guys actions were mostly approved.

Who was approved by who?

Never saw the sound stage stuff, only the anime series.

Yeah, I can tell.

Gaiz's comments at a minimum, and it was clear some of the other personnel seemed to feel that way, whether it was against Hayate specifically, or against all non-Midchildan is something I do not think can be determined through the canon material.

Regius is specifically peeved that a former criminal is meddling in his (illegal) affairs, Hayate's planet of origin has nothing to do with it. At least part of this is the fact that RF6 is a unit from the bureau's Main Branch (the dudes who fly around in battleships like Lindy and the Asura and who usually handle interdimensional crimes) and they're operating in his territory (Regius being a general of the Ground Forces with a grudge against the Main Branch). The other person you're probably thinking of is his assistant -- and daughter -- Auris Gaiz.

Know nothing of the novels... I was referring to the sly way they got Nanoha to join due to her having Raising Heart bonded to her. Which should be noted was done at the direction of Yuuno... So why was he never brought up on charges for giving it to her. What would the TSAB have done if she said 'screw you' and refused to not only join, but refuse the monitoring of her status as being for her own good despite the fact she is a earth citizen at that point and not under their jurisdiction.

Are you referring to the scene in the first season where they ask for Nanoha's cooperation? Because I seem to recall Chrono asking Nanoha to bow out and leave the fighting to the professionals, not "conscription".

No.... she was still forced into confinement on that ship for crimes she did not commit for 6 months... So would she have been trapped on the planet (probably Midchilda) when they let her go if she had not joined? Or would they have actually been kind enough to at least return her from where they took her.

Already addressed this one.

The limiters are an incredibly stupid idea unless you *want* to place your agents in danger when they go out in the field (I can see that appealing to Gaiz and even the council)... It is an incredibly callous and carefree idea considering the ones doing the risks are not the ones in control of the limiters. I actually approve of their use on mages and combat personnel *in training* or for *medical reasons* ... but not remotely for top ranked active duty personnel. And I like that only the higher ups can undo it, and only a limited number of times... Some of those higher ups are not even mages. I have to wonder how many agents they lose dealing such stupid tactics.

Not many, considering that they only get used when really powerful mages work together in close quarters. And the number of mages we've seen at the level of the main characters who aren't one of the three Aces can be counted on one hand. S-rankers are rare like hen's teeth and it's even rarer that they work together in a single unit because the bureau tries to spread them out and get the most mileage out of them; S-rankers are virtually superheroes in the bureau, for most normal cases they're just plain overkill, and it's rare for a case to need the kind of firepower you get when you bring a bunch of them into a single unit.

And incidentally limiters do see some use as medical tools, Nanoha's wearing one during ViVid because she damaged her linker core while using the Blaster System at the end of StrikerS.

By the way, I already answered this question once. Don't make me answer it again.

Yes they did bad, but they were ultimately doing it for the good of the world... so I have to wonder... under the TSAB policies you state are in place... shouldn't them, the council all be pardoned and let go? Your own earlier comment suggests the TSAB will be light on those doing bad things for the good of the people... After all they *all* thought they were doing the right thing.

You're right, I misspoke earlier. When I judged Regius and the Council earlier and said their intentions didn't negate their crimes, my response was colored by my dislike for the characters in question.

So to answer your question, yes they should. However the depths of the crimes the council committed are most likely significantly worse than those that Gil committed, we just didn't see them on-screen. The council didn't just start plotting against the bureau a few days before StrikerS started, their involvement goes back to at least Jail's birth, and he was active as a mad scientist 25 years before StrikerS. They've most likely been busy in the time between now and then guiding things from the shadows, and the whole time they've been guilty of conspiracy against the government and high treason. I would like to see Regius and the Council answer for their crimes, however my feeling is that they would NOT get off with just a slap on the wrist like Gil did. That is just a feeling, though.

*EDIT*
And by the way, before I forget: Gil is a native of Earth. He's from England, as a matter of fact. I believe this is mentioned when he first meets Nanoha and the rest and Nanoha mentions she's from Earth. Might be worth remembering when you're accusing the bureau of favoritism for its admirals AND racism against people not from Mid at the same time.
Currently Watching: Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu
Currently Playing: Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep
Currently Reading: Sora no Otoshimono

KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End.
Comartemis
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4559
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby claymade » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:19 am

PCHeintz72 wrote:manipulated events in an elaborate plot to support a girl so that he could set her up to be assassinated and murdered.

Not that I myself think he was completely in the right, but as a further mitigating factor to Gil's plan, recall that whoever the Book of Darkness chose next, they are--as far as any of the characters knew at the time--basically under a death sentence already.

So in his view, it wasn't just "set her up to be assassinated and murdered", it was, "set her up to be assassinated and murdered... like, a half-hour before she would have died anyway." With the added benefit of saving the lives of everyone else on Earth, all future book of darkness hosts, and all their planets. Which as Comartemis points out, clock in in the billions.

Seen in that light, I think his actions were, if not altogether right, at least understandable. And, by extension--especially since the people who his actions directly hurt seemed similarly understanding of his choices, and didn't seem to want to "press charges", as you yourself alluded to in your Fate example--the TSAB simply deciding to sweep it all under the rug is not really anything I lose much sleep over.
claymade
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 935
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Nekomata-sensei » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:38 pm

Some points about TSAB's policies.

First on the nepotism. I get the idea that they can't actually help it much. High level mages along the likes of Chrono and Lindy are really rare, and on top of that, magical talents tend to run in families. I'm guessing for every 1000 or so D rank mages, there is about 10 C ranks, and 1 B rank, and A rank or higher mages are stupidly rare. This means that most of the high level mages are closely related to each other in some way. TSAB administers numerous worlds, but even with all those worlds, they don't have that many high level mages, and those high level mages are spread thin, and many haven't even joined TSAB, although they likely use a lot of methods to pressure them into doing so, because of their rarity. This including hefty benefits packages, luxurious lodging, top medical facilities, nice vacation time and special vacation facilities, and pressuring about the the whole Spider-Man thing, with great power comes great responsibility and all. They also likely have a lot of breaks in the law for mages willing to join TSAB to complete punishment duties, as skilled mages are hard to come across and train. Of course they have to pass duty training tests in order to qualify, which likely leave only the higher level mages able to avoid prison by working as contract mages for TSAB for a while... :wink:

Even people like Gil Gram(sp?), he is a powerful, high ranked, and experienced official, with generally the right intentions, if extreme and questionable ways of implementing his plan. Given he is powerful enough to support 2 powerful familiars, it would be very useful to re-activate him in an emergency situation. If his 'punishment' is more like a vacation, this means that he is more inclined to be highly willing to help out if they need to re-activate him. In the meantime, he is probably high ranked enough to understand these policies, and is making good with his victims so that they won't complain too much in such a case.

Regius doesn't have much excuses behind his actions, but again, he was unable to be punished given his death. His reasons seem to involve a number of complex personal issues including being pissed off that other branches are taking over his branch's duties, particularly in an issue that he is largely to blame for in the first place and was one of his own plots to power up his forces that backfired when Jail went rouge. On top of that, as someone who _doesn't_ get the high level mages who are typically investigators and air forces and stuff like that, but the lowest D-rank grunts of the ground forces, he probably likes a lot less the policies of lenience on criminals for joining the forces, thus is pissed off about the formal criminal stuff, and might not have full information on the circumstances depending on how far clearance levels go for those not involved in incidents, particularly ones that might be embarrassing to TSAB like Gil Gram's actions.

Children in combat goes back to the high level mages rarity bit, but might have additional aspects. For instance, it is highly possible, and likely, that mages mature much faster than muggles or whatever they call them in TSAB. They might even have higher intelligence, given Nanoha's mathematical skills and other hints we've seen. Additionally, it is possible for them to burn out their linker cores if they push themselves to much, and if they don't mature faster, it is highly possible that older mages tend to be a lot weaker, after pushing themselves too far numerous times. At least by joining TSAB they get training to better and more appropriately handle their powers, and better support if they get involved in incidents, unlike helpful civilians like Nanoha started out as. It is also possible, or even likely, that exceptions are made for those with talents in the class of Chrono, Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate, who are all massively powerful freaks of nature, allowing them to start active duty at ages below legal maturity on TSAB administered worlds if they pass a few tests, mostly geared towards high level mage geniuses to get them out on the field as quickly as possible... particularly since they're likely to get themselves involved anyway. Chrono is implied to be a rare genius who joined up and rose in the ranks at a shocking and unprecedented rate, and Nanoha, with her Starlight breaker blowing through armored walls and high class barriers with her Divine Breaker, is implied to be something like a case of breaking all the standards and barely still fitting within the capacities of their highest class measuring equipment 'What an insane amount of magical power!?' indeed, to the point they weren't sure Fate would be okay, despite all the spells being restricted into non-lethal mode. Hayate is so powerful they had to break out previously unused theoretical measurements of mage power to deal with her, even when she is sealed and powering the equivalent of 4 obscenely high class familiars around the same power range as Fate when Arf is powered down to puppy state. If she wasn't powering 4 familiars and sealed, she'd probably break their scale system and go up past SSS+ rank, forcing them to make a new scale.

On the seals restricting high level mages. It is true they need permission to break the seals, but it looks like to me that the permission is just so that they don't get in trouble when they do. They could likely turn them off on their own in an emergency situation, but would have to fill out numerous reports explaining their actions, and possibly be punished if their reasons weren't sufficient, or even just for going against orders, even if they were right to do so. It is in place to avoid large scale rebelliousness and negative feelings from the more average forces who aren't super-powered freaks of nature who get shamed just seeing the actions of high level mages, and forced into fits of jealousy and envy. If they didn't have this in place, they'd likely have a number of lower level mages constantly trying various power-up schemes or burning themselves out trying to keep up with the super-powered freaks, much like the path they had to deter Teana from when she was trying to keep up with her team-mates. Not to be sexist or anything, but it is likely that boys tend to be more competitive and push themselves harder than Teana did if they feel like they aren't contributing enough, so things like that are probably surprisingly common. I'm strongly tempted to call it the Sasuke effect after Sasuke in Naruto and how he goes to Orochimaru for power. Regius was trying to do similar for the ground forces in general by attempting to employ Jail to do combat cyborg research, which would allow lower class mages to function like high class mages using cybernetic enhancements, specifically because he was pissed off by the ego and power and area of interest conflicts he constantly had with the more powerful Air and Enforcer groups, in which his forces constantly appeared incompetent and had to get help from those groups, and the other two groups always got favored in equipment, benefits, leniency for forces who were previously criminal elements, and so on. If they didn't use the restrictive seals, the Regius issue would keep on repeating and be much more expected and common. In a sealed state, at least Nanoha's techniques can be replicated with enough training by similarly leveled mages, not that they can keep up with her anyway because she is still a combat genius using highly difficult techniques with ease with greater reflexes, tactical and strategic abilities than a Korean pro-Starcraft player. They use her as a teacher for a reason, not just because the forces she creates tend to be better, but because she has enough situational awareness and high class skills to maintain discipline in a group of high level mages who are used to overpowering their peers and using utility magic to make everything in life easy for them, as well as can consistently outsmart and out-predict them, so she can actually teach and keep in line lesser geniuses with bigger egos, earning their respect. They cultivate her 'White Devil' reputation on purpose, but still seal her power so what they generally see is actually attainable if you follow her training properly.

Most of TSAB's issues come from having to employ people who are far more powerful than most of their peers, and used to using that power to show off and get their way, and conflicts of interest between powerful individuals that are settled by force, when who is right and who is wrong factors in less compared to who is most powerful and talented. It is only pure luck that the people in charge are relatively good and have generally good intentions for the multiverse, trying to deal with multi-dimensional disturbances and sealing away of Lost Logia. They are, however, forced to take in as many high level mages as possible, as only the most powerful can actually deal with and seal lost logia properly. It doesn't matter how many ground forces you sent against the Book of Darkness, they'd all just die, and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, but about 7 elite AA rank mages might be able to pull it off with the help of a top battlecruiser's main gun.

Notably, when Nanoha was first starting out, as shown in the cannon comics, she was doing mental training programs with Raging Heart virtually, in which she battled against whole platoons of A-B rank fliers, and was dealing with them with relative ease in these simulations. Increases in rank tend to indicate exponential increases in raw power, so it is hard to utilize ground forces level mages for what TSAB's main duties are. The ground forces are almost closer to a police force when it comes down to it, and only get their military status because they don't want to embarrass large numbers of people who are at least actually mages, and with the right training could still operate things like battlecruisers and high powered magical blasting guns that use something like a cartridge system power source to charge up over time, for a few key high powered shots, or cast group spells under pressure to try and make up for power differences, or worse, be tempted to try and make up power differences by using lost logia and other wisely forbidden techniques and technologies.

TSAB isn't similar to organizations in the real world because of this kind of stuff. Here in the real world there is little difference in the raw power and physical capability of our soldiers. There are those with physical disabilities of course, and even more noticeably those with different intelligence and skills, but this pales in comparison between different mage ranks, or mages to non-mages, which TSAB has to deal with. It would be like some kind of super-hero world effect, only a very rare few are super heroes, and amongst those people have vastly different power levels, so if you want to stand up against the biggest threats, you might be forced to work with or use the likes of the Hulk, the Sentry, or the Specter, or given that we are talking about anime here, it might be like being forced to work with ex-space-pirate Hakubi Ryoko, as one of the few able to stand up against the kind of threats they are dealing with at the time, or perhaps having to work with Lina Inverse, the Bandit Slayer and Enemy of All Who Live, although I don't think TSAB would go quite so far as working with someone like Dark Schneider.

As you see with StrikerS' finale, Nanoha, Fate, Hayate and other super mages tend to be the only ones able to actually do things, while the rest play support by taking out what AMF enhanced automatons they can, this means TSAB has to bend over backwards to be able to employ them.

As far as the 'prejudiced to non-mid-childeans' bit goes. Well, I don't think it is that, so much as their forces are _very_ stretched out already, they can't _afford_ to deal with every incident in some random non-administered world. They didn't even know the jewel seeds were lost logia until they found out after arriving to investigate the ship's disappearance, and Earth is far enough away dimensionally that it takes them a while to get ships there and back, and one ship was deemed sufficient for the incident.

With the A's season incident, the ship was already visiting Earth for reasons connected to Nanoha, they couldn't just have them sent back home and replace them quickly just because of a conflict of interest, especially when a conflict of interest might also mean the parties involved have more critical experience and knowledge regarding what they are dealing with. Gil wasn't even directly involved so much himself, but more available in an advisory role, at least officially, it was only later discovered he'd already had a plot in the background, which he likely kept secret because it broke numerous moral rules and regulations on dealing with citizens of non-administered worlds and children, and standard practices for how to deal with Lost Logia, as well as his desire to keep the site of it being sealed secret so that nobody would seek it out for power. They also happened to have some of the most powerful around, to deal with one of the most powerful and dangerous lost logia TSAB had ever dealt with. It's not like they could just pull out some other mages around Lindy and Chrono's level to help deal with the Book of Darkness and it's projected guardians. Also, who is to say that other capital ship crews wouldn't have numerous members with personal links, given crew shuffling and the fact that before Hayate, the guardians tended to drain mages to death to fill up the book, and TSAB had encountered it before, and developed beliefs that the guardians were emotionless AI's.
"Health, Learning & Virtue will ensure your happiness; they will give you a quiet conscience, private esteem & public honor." Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
Nekomata-sensei
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 448
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:02 am

First on the nepotism.

Generally I disregard the nepotism altogether. Tiger and I disagree on a lot of stuff, but one thing I think we can definitely agree on is that Tsuzuki will never be well-known for his world-building (look at the mess he's made of Ancient Belkan history, just for starters). I'm inclined to think that the nepotism is just something he honestly didn't consider when he was building the first season; it didn't really become a major issue until the bureau turned into the center of the action in StrikerS and we saw that it wasn't an isolated incident but something that happens all across the bureau (Regius and Auris, the Nakajima family, Fate and Erio/Caro, etc).

Children in combat goes back to the high level mages rarity bit, but might have additional aspects. For instance, it is highly possible, and likely, that mages mature much faster than muggles or whatever they call them in TSAB. They might even have higher intelligence, given Nanoha's mathematical skills and other hints we've seen.

I think it's more a societal thing. Child labor laws are a very recent invention in human history, and child soldiers are only even remotely useful because we've gotten past the point where combat ability relies almost entirely on your ability to wear heavy armor and swing a sword.

More to the point however, modern Mid-Childan kids aren't the only ones who can blow up houses and level city blocks, they've probably been able to do that since shortly after magic was first discovered. Most likely a society that discovers magic quickly discovers that their kids are sometimes capable of immense destruction, and the society alters itself to place a high emphasis on making sure these kids are taught to use their powers responsibly (whether or not the kid in question is actually capable of smashing houses or if he's just your average D-ranker). It's worth noting that in the StrikerS manga Erio mentions that he would've been considered an adult at age 10 in Ancient Belka.

As you see with StrikerS' finale, Nanoha, Fate, Hayate and other super mages tend to be the only ones able to actually do things, while the rest play support by taking out what AMF enhanced automatons they can, this means TSAB has to bend over backwards to be able to employ them.

It bears noting that the JS Incident is an unusual case for several reasons. First, interdimensional crises like this one apparently don't happen very frequently, because if there were there'd probably be a Riot Force Six equivalent on call all the time to handle this kind of stuff. Since there isn't and since Hayate had to go through a lot of trouble to convince people there was a need for one, I think we can assume that the bureau as we see it isn't constantly under threat by deranged mad scientists and out-of-control Lost Logia; in short, that the D and C-ranked grunts can usually get stuff done without needing the White Devil to come in and Befriend everything in a ten-mile radius. We see this briefly during the StrikerS finale when Genya Nakajima's 108th Battalion is able to hold off Jail's Gadget forces by themselves; it would've been a different story if the Forwards hadn't been on call to handle the Numbers, but the only difference between the 108th and the rest of the Ground Forces was that the 108th was personally trained by Vita in AMF countermeasures. Had Regius not intervened and prevented AMF training from being implemented across the Ground Forces, the bureau's grunts would've made a much better showing of themselves during StrikerS and Jail would've had to work a lot harder to be a serious threat.

and one ship was deemed sufficient for the incident.

Remember, the bureau didn't know that Precia and Fate were hiding out near Earth; all they really needed to send to investigate the situation was a force strong enough to fight and seal the individual Jewel Seeds. Forget the Asura, Chrono by himself would've been overkill if the Testarossa family hadn't been around to complicate the situation.
Currently Watching: Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu
Currently Playing: Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep
Currently Reading: Sora no Otoshimono

KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End.
Comartemis
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4559
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:14 am

>>The TSAB is an internally corrupted bureaucracy. Rife with several undesirable working practices...

That's what happens when you try to merge magical girl and sci-fi genres without doing your world-building beforehand. You get people who come in and pick apart your mistakes and don't take into account the fact that you don't know how the hell a military is supposed to operate. And then of course they harp on those mistakes at every given opportunity and write fanfics about how immensely stupid the organization is with no respect for the fact that said organization is supposed to be competent in-universe. Just as an example.

>>Basically... I came away from the anime with the view of the TSAB as being similar to Stargate.

And I came away with the impression that they were built from the ground up (on a meta level, not necessarily in-universe) to be an organization that an idealistic and unambiguously heroic magical girl could join without having to compromise between her orders and her ideals or her ethics. I place the TSAB on a moral level just slightly below unambiguously heroic groups like the Gutsy Galaxy Guard; in short, the organization is founded on principles of "protect and serve" and unless it is specifically stated otherwise, an individual who belongs to that group strives to live up to those principles and possesses a heroic character by default.

Ummm... no. I never said anything was a *mistake*, I look at it, and that is what I see, that is my interpretation of events in the canon scenes. That is a viewer opinion. That is no less, nor no more, right than your own.

*Any* series should be able to stand up to scrutiny from within its own viewpoints. If it could not, really there is no point to discussion forums on series.

Everyones morals are a little different, even if overall they are similar. And really, what it boils down to is a difference in interpretation of morality on the part of the TSAB... I seem to be taking a more pessimistic and cynic view of their actions... you seem (from my POV) to want to overlook some of it for a overall more positive spin.

Neither is truly right or wrong.

However... considering how many higher ups we are shown, and how many operations we are shown in the 3 seasons... I am convinced there is far too much corruption, graft, and black ops... to ever consider them the 'best of the best' and the upper tier of guys with heroic attitudes and good intentions... But I am willing to entertain the thought the TSAB was *formed* with those intentions, but merely that is *not* what it is *now*.

BTW... never heard of Gutsy Galaxy Guard. Is that merely a group in a series, or a series name itself?

Yuuno is a civilian archaeologist who went after the Jewel Seeds on his own, he's not connected to the bureau until he takes over the Infinity Library.

No... as a MidChildan citizen... he should know their laws... and I doubt handing a device like he had (which no one has been able to explain to me adequately just *why* he had Raising Heart in the first place) would be acceptable under those laws.

Again, Nanoha and Fate are civilians, where the TSAB is a government institution with authority over several worlds and so far are the only government agency that has been shown to operate on an interdimensional scale. They ARE the only ones qualified and warranted to have these kind of items.

I do not recognize their legal authority on Earth. I do not believe Earth governments really gave them any rights, and in any case not shown in series they have such rights. Further... Nanoha did not press charges against Fate... I did not see Yuuno press charges against Fate. It is publicly known and confessed directly to the TSAB Fate was lied to, manipulated, and tortured by Precia... so I cannot see even mere detainment or hunting her down. And Nanoha was not given any criteria under which she could act when given Raising Heart by Yuuno. As such... I feel the TSAB has no right barging into the situation and immediately assume jurisdiction and arrest Fate. They have no right to even hint at needing to monitor or limit either of them.

Jail was most likely getting the Jewel Seeds from his contacts inside the bureau, or otherwise just stealing them like he was with the relics.

Actually... I was referring to the Terminal incident, the train incident, and other hints that the TSAB really sucks at protecting Lost Logia and planning secure transport.

You leave out that he supported her financially and made sure she could live comfortably until his scheme went into action. That's no small chunk of change considering Hayate had her own house in Japan, land of ungodly property values.

Nonsense... I did not leave it out. I assumed that was part of the need to be able to monitor and track her better, also ensured she lived until the right time. I consider that a very crappy thing on his part. But proves premeditation.

Hayate was not "enforced" to do anything, she had the option to let the Wolks take the blame for her and she decided to take responsibility as their master. Seriously dude, read the manga.

I submit the TSAB had no jurisdiction over their actions since it was the TSAB, or members of such, that were manipulating Hayate and Knights... additionally, they were already under the issue of corrupt magic.

In any case, I assumed it was a moral trap to get her to join. Seemed like it from way hinted at. Really stuck it too her considering she was still serving 10 years later. They likely knew what her response would be, and if they are as desperate for mages as you've implied, and considering other acts, I considered it not beneath them.

Not "confinement", the manga shows her training with Chrono for at least part of that time and undergoing the test to become a Contract Mage. She was staying with the Harlaown family, who at that point were the only responsible adults in the bureau who cared about her while they testified in her defense at her trial. And they cared enough to adopt her when they were done, if you remember. You make it sound like she was in prison that whole time.

Guild-ed cage... Simple... she wanted to be with Nanoha... that was clear... they kept her from Nanoha, also clear... thus I call it confinement and restriction of actions.

Contrary to the image presented in StrikerS

Canon source should have been clearer.

That's a lot of worlds for the book to destroy and a lot of innocent people who might've died if Graham hadn't done something.

Not once have I argued the potential destructiveness of the book... My point was Graham acted on his own and deliberately mislead the rest of the TSAB. This all could have been settled peacefully *years* ago. They could have explained things to the girl, or at least took her to TSAB doctors in guise of specialists and had her examined, they might have been able to solve her health issues, and if they did, or at least shown it, then the Knights would not have had to go on a mana/linker core vampirism spree. Graham should have made his case to the TSAB council (public, not private). Then everything would have been on the up and up. it also would have served as the best barometer of MidChildan society morality possible, but sadly we were denied that.

Did you not get the message that the high council's very existence was a conspiracy? There were only a select few in the bureau who even knew the brains existed in their present forms before Due assassinated them, and there's a line in either the ViVid manga or SSX that mentions reforms in the bureau that probably got rid of their co-conspirators.

I understood that part completely.

Regius is specifically peeved that a former criminal is meddling in his (illegal) affairs,

He was complaining on TSAB internal policy.

Not many, considering that they only get used when really powerful mages work together in close quarters.

Nothing can convince me any good could come of limiters on your highest mages in active combat roles. This group was specifically formed to go against heavy problems... Problems giving the normal forces problems... and the TSAB wanted to limit them why exactly... because they cannot trust their agents in the field to use their powers wisely... yet are willing to place them on the front lines of danger while they sit comfortably having tea and/or in their bunkers... That to me is not only high stupidity... but a double standard.

I'm reminded of NGE... pilots given responsibility to pilot... but not trusted to make decisions... even if it turned out right in the end they still get punished and limited/manipulated in different ways.

And incidentally limiters do see some use as medical tools, Nanoha's wearing one during ViVid because she damaged her linker core while using the Blaster System at the end of StrikerS.

And I stated I had no issue with it being used in such a way.

And by the way, before I forget: Gil is a native of Earth. He's from England, as a matter of fact.

That I knew... but he had decades to acclimate himself to the MidChildan society and morals... Thus why I never exempted him. And in any case my opinion of him, his actions, and his 'punishment', stands, since it would not matter what his own moral code is, I'm judging him on mine.

Shugs.... I've no clue about others... but I think that is about it as far as yourself and my discussion on it goes... I really do not see either of us getting the opposite number to switch views on this... they are too opposing to be reconciled.

My recommendation in the other thread regarding the nomination of TSAB to the role I set still stands.
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2705
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:44 am

No...

YES. Yuuno is not affiliated with the TSAB, he's affiliated with the Scrya clan and later on the Infinity Library. Read it and weep.

as a MidChildan citizen... he should know their laws...

Bullshit. Just because I'm an American citizen doesn't mean I know the justice system inside and out.

and I doubt handing a device like he had (which no one has been able to explain to me adequately just *why* he had Raising Heart in the first place) would be acceptable under those laws.

You seem to be under the impression that devices are military hardware. They're not. Apart from Yuuno possessing Raising Heart, StrikerS also gave us Teana's Anchor Gun (the pistol she was using in the first episode, background material says she built it herself before she entered the academy), and the Forwards are shown to keep the devices that were built for them after StrikerS; Caro and Erio leave the armed forces for a few years and work at a wildlife preserve between StrikerS and SSX, but they still have Kerykeion and Strada when they show up in later series. Vivio and her friends Rio and Corona have their own devices in ViVid despite still being in grade school, and Force gives us Touma's device Steed, who doesn't appear to even have a weapon mode at all.

I do not recognize their legal authority on Earth. I do not believe Earth governments really gave them any rights, and in any case not shown in series they have such rights.

This requires that we get into the bureau's policies for dealing with non-administrated worlds, which Tsuzuki hasn't been kind enough to provide for us. In any case, their jurisdiction in this matter consists of "we made a mess, so we're gonna clean it up before people get hurt".

Further... Nanoha did not press charges against Fate... I did not see Yuuno press charges against Fate. It is publicly known and confessed directly to the TSAB Fate was lied to, manipulated, and tortured by Precia... so I cannot see even mere detainment or hunting her down.

People don't have to press charges against you for the cops to stick you in a squad car. The bureau is an interdimensional police force and Precia is an interdimensional criminal who tried to create a dimensional distortion and nearly wiped out a universe or two in the process. Even if Nanoha and Yuuno don't press charges against her for anything, Fate is still an accomplice to Precia's crime by way of providing her with the Jewel Seeds. The fact that Fate was manipulated and beaten was taken into account at her trial and was responsible for her getting away so cleanly. Be that as it may, Lindy is an officer of the law, and no matter how sympathetic she was to Fate's plight she still had to bring her in to face trial for her actions. She did that, and then she turned around and testified in Fate's defense to make sure Fate wasn't punished for being a pawn in her mom's schemes.

Actually... I was referring to the Terminal incident, the train incident, and other hints that the TSAB really sucks at protecting Lost Logia and planning secure transport.

The details surrounding those cases are not elaborated on in canon so far as I know, and simply assuming that the TSAB was transporting them and that they weren't, for instance, being smuggled into Mid-Childa by a criminal organzation with ties to Jail is jumping the gun.

Nonsense... I did not leave it out. I assumed that was part of the need to be able to monitor and track her better, also ensured she lived until the right time. I consider that a very crappy thing on his part. But proves premeditation.

You assume much. He could have simply dumped her in an orphanage and bribed the people in charge to make sure she stayed there or something, instead he gave her a house, paid for her food and medical bills and made sure she had the coziest life a crippled pre-teen is capable of having for several years.

I submit the TSAB had no jurisdiction over their actions since it was the TSAB, or members of such, that were manipulating Hayate and Knights... additionally, they were already under the issue of corrupt magic.

The Wolkenritter committed crimes across several different worlds. That makes them interdimensional criminals, which puts them in the bureau's jurisdiction by default. Also, Hayate disagrees with you regarding "they were being manipulated, so they're not guilty". Here's a quote from the A's manga.

Hayate Yagami wrote:Even though it's being reviewed, the fact won't change... what everyone did was and always will be a crime. I have to carry the burden of your crimes too, and that won't go away over time. So I don't want anyone to blame themselves because we're all at fault, although I still want everyone to bow deeply and apologize for all the trouble we've caused.


In any case, I assumed it was a moral trap to get her to join. Seemed like it from way hinted at. Really stuck it too her considering she was still serving 10 years later. They likely knew what her response would be, and if they are as desperate for mages as you've implied, and considering other acts, I considered it not beneath them.

Yeah NO. Hayate is still serving ten years later because she loves her job, like Nanoha and Fate do. Did you miss that one part near the beginning of StrikerS where she's telling Nanoha and Fate that she has a dream of having her own unit? You'd think that if she were serving against her will she'd be dreaming of getting the fuck out, not advancing in the ranks.

Guild-ed cage... Simple... she wanted to be with Nanoha... that was clear... they kept her from Nanoha, also clear... thus I call it confinement and restriction of actions.

That makes absolutely no sense. Not only is this massively out-of-character for Chrono and Lindy, both of whom are highly sympathetic to Fate's case, it's also highly illogical. If Chrono and Lindy really were a couple of evil bastards trying to rope Fate into joining the bureau, wouldn't it make more sense for them to make her look as guilty as possible? That way she'd be FORCED to choose between lengthy jail time and possibly never seeing Nanoha again or serving the bureau for a long time and getting to see Nanoha again. Instead they gave her her freedom and allowed Fate to choose to go back to the bureau to atone for her crimes.

My point was Graham acted on his own and deliberately mislead the rest of the TSAB. This all could have been settled peacefully *years* ago. They could have explained things to the girl, or at least took her to TSAB doctors in guise of specialists and had her examined, they might have been able to solve her health issues, and if they did, or at least shown it, then the Knights would not have had to go on a mana/linker core vampirism spree. Graham should have made his case to the TSAB council (public, not private). Then everything would have been on the up and up. it also would have served as the best barometer of MidChildan society morality possible, but sadly we were denied that.

The problem with trying to examine the book is that THEY TRIED THAT BEFORE and the book went berserk on its own, that's what resulted in Clyde Harlaown's ship being destroyed. It's far more likely that trying to help Hayate would've triggered the book's self-defense program prematurely, which would most likely kill Hayate anyways and lose them the book for another generation.

Nothing can convince me any good could come of limiters on your highest mages in active combat roles.

Did you miss the two or three times where I mentioned that high-level mages operating in close quarters can cause time/space distortions? Because TIME/SPACE DISTORTIONS CAN DESTROY UNIVERSES, as we saw with the Jewel Seeds in the first season.

My recommendation in the other thread regarding the nomination of TSAB to the role I set still stands.

My opinion that you're more full of shit than anyone I've ever met who wasn't named arkhangelsk stands as well.
Currently Watching: Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu
Currently Playing: Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep
Currently Reading: Sora no Otoshimono

KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End.
Comartemis
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4559
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby AdmiralTigerclaw » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:50 pm

Busy writing to finish a chapter the last two days, and I miss the entire rest of the conversaion.

I'll put out the scientific/legal reasons behind my arguments.

First off, I'll state that I'm basing my opinion from an in-story perspective only. Blaming situation X on the creator's ability to create does not change the fact that situation X is set up. And justifying it that way doesn't mean a hill of beans.

1: Nepotism.

As I explained before, this leads to a conflict of interest. It is a careless organization that uses the excuse 'not enough manpower' to justify that it allows rampant situations as with Lindy/Chrono, where a conflict of interest of DISASTEROUS proportions can arise. (By Disasterous, we mean DESTROY WORLDS.) If the TSAB is having manpower issues, they're stretched too thin, and need to seriously draw back to deal with what they CAN handle. If you don't have enough manpower, you scale back your operations, and PRIORITIZE the problems that crop up. That's called resource management.

2: Child Labor, Child Soldiers, etc.

Child labor laws are a product of modern society, but for a sound reason. Children are not fully developed physically, or mentally. A child's judgement is not yet capable of fully comprehending the gravity of their actions for themselves and others. A teenager is emotionally unstable half the time. The young are easily influenced (often termed 'brainwashed') by their surroundings at this age. It is reprihensable to any first world country to deliberately send a child into conflict well aware of these issues. It is even more reprihensable and thus, morally bankrupt of the TSAB, which should be analogue of a First World nation, if the TSAB is doing this KNOWING that children are impressionable, and using the fact that they can be trained at a young age AS a form of enlistment practice.

The interesting part, and perhaps the TSABs only saving grace. Is that Nanoha, at age nine, seemed to show emotional maturity and wisdom three to five times her current age. However, trying to sugar-coat the problems of the TSAB and justifying away the issues to call it a utopia is little more than lying to yourself. Were you part of this world, such actions would blatently show that you yourself are just as morally corrupt as the TSAB. Because you are DEFENDING such policies, without attempting to find and present viable alternatives.
Ernest 'Admiral Tigerclaw' Hart
OWNER: Samurai Penguin Studios
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/SamuraiPenguinStudio
AdmiralTigerclaw
User avatar
Chibi Sailor Senshi
Posts: 285
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:20 pm

The interesting part, and perhaps the TSABs only saving grace. Is that Nanoha, at age nine, seemed to show emotional maturity and wisdom three to five times her current age. However, trying to sugar-coat the problems of the TSAB and justifying away the issues to call it a utopia is little more than lying to yourself. Were you part of this world, such actions would blatently show that you yourself are just as morally corrupt as the TSAB. Because you are DEFENDING such policies, without attempting to find and present viable alternatives.

I notice you completely disregarded the post I made regarding this point. I'll post it again for your benefit, Tiger.

Comartemis wrote:More to the point however, modern Mid-Childan kids aren't the only ones who can blow up houses and level city blocks, they've probably been able to do that since shortly after magic was first discovered. Most likely a society that discovers magic quickly discovers that their kids are sometimes capable of immense destruction, and the society alters itself to place a high emphasis on making sure these kids are taught to use their powers responsibly (whether or not the kid in question is actually capable of smashing houses or if he's just your average D-ranker). It's worth noting that in the StrikerS manga Erio mentions that he would've been considered an adult at age 10 in Ancient Belka.

And in case you didn't notice, we have yet to meet a kid in this series who isn't wise beyond their years; they're all like Nanoha, from "I don't want mom to worry about me!" Erio to "I'm not really an adult just yet!" Vivio and everyone in between. Even Suzuka and Arisa, the completely non-magical (or are they?) civilian kids are already giving serious thought to their future careers in Episode 1. The closest we've seen to these kids acting their age by our standards is in Erio's flashbacks to just after he's taken from his parents. A magic-powered temper tantrum, something we've never seen from any other kid in this series, and Erio only got to that state by being effectively abandoned by his parents. If our own kids had magical powers like this in real life, this sort of thing would be happening all the time, and woe to the parents with kids who are stronger than they are.
Currently Watching: Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu
Currently Playing: Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep
Currently Reading: Sora no Otoshimono

KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End.
Comartemis
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4559
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Wyrd » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:37 pm

However, trying to sugar-coat the problems of the TSAB and justifying away the issues to call it a utopia is little more than lying to yourself.


Not even Utopia was a true Utopia. These things always come at a price, and part of that price in this universe is catching powerful mages young and training them to control their powers before they level their homes by accident. Many of TSAB's policies are dark, ill-advised, or even outright reprehensible, but I don't judge them worthy of being considered a villain as a whole any more than the entire Catholic church is the villain in the Three Musketeers just because Cardinal Richilieu was an evil git and because they had some policies that, in retrospect, were not well advised. Most of the cases for villainy in TSAB's case can be lain directly on the heads of a few individuals or on the problems of bureaucracy. Hmm, I think I might go add bureaucracy as the biggest villain of them all on that other thread.
Wyrd
User avatar
Senshi Cadet
Posts: 126
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby PCHeintz72 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:46 pm

>>No...

YES. Yuuno is not affiliated with the TSAB, he's affiliated with the Scrya clan and later on the Infinity Library. Read it and weep.


I'm afraid you either misunderstood my statement, or took my 'No' out of context. I was *not* disagreeing that he was a civilian. I was pointing out he was a MidChildan citizen.

>>as a MidChildan citizen... he should know their laws...

Bullshit. Just because I'm an American citizen doesn't mean I know the justice system inside and out.

Not inside out. But he should know not to involve random people from other planets.

>>and I doubt handing a device like he had (which no one has been able to explain to me adequately just *why* he had Raising Heart in the first place) would be acceptable under those laws.

You seem to be under the impression that devices are military hardware.


I am not now nor ever under the impression they are military hardware. It merely seemed that him having Raising Heart made no sense except in the form of being convenient to the plot so he could give it to Nanoha. His own Magic would not seem to be on the same scale as her's, and as such, why would he have a device that powerful.

Ginga's and Subaru's devices in particular interested me, as it proves they can be handed down through the family. I've kind of always wondered though, how they are made for civilian vs. military applications.

>>I do not recognize their legal authority on Earth. I do not believe Earth governments really gave them any rights, and in any case not shown in series they have such rights.

This requires that we get into the bureau's policies for dealing with non-administrated worlds, which Tsuzuki hasn't been kind enough to provide for us. In any case, their jurisdiction in this matter consists of "we made a mess, so we're gonna clean it up before people get hurt".


Hmmm... since it is not covered in canon, basically stating they go where they want, do what they want. Without letting the correct authorities know.

>>Further... Nanoha did not press charges against Fate... I did not see Yuuno press charges against Fate. It is publicly known and confessed directly to the TSAB Fate was lied to, manipulated, and tortured by Precia... so I cannot see even mere detainment or hunting her down.


People don't have to press charges against you for the cops to stick you in a squad car. The bureau is an interdimensional police force and Precia is an interdimensional criminal who tried to create a dimensional distortion and nearly wiped out a universe or two in the process. Even if Nanoha and Yuuno don't press charges against her for anything, Fate is still an accomplice to Precia's crime by way of providing her with the Jewel Seeds. The fact that Fate was manipulated and beaten was taken into account at her trial and was responsible for her getting away so cleanly. Be that as it may, Lindy is an officer of the law, and no matter how sympathetic she was to Fate's plight she still had to bring her in to face trial for her actions. She did that, and then she turned around and testified in Fate's defense to make sure Fate wasn't punished for being a pawn in her mom's schemes.

Yeah... and I should note it was Precia that did pretty much all that. Fate may have committed acts against Nanoha specifically, and even Yuuno specifically... Fate's only actual crime is in running from the TSAB and defending herself. It did not help the TSAB's case that Chrono was pretty much an arrogant ass in first season.

I disagree with the authority they had to detain and arrest her.

>>Actually... I was referring to the Terminal incident, the train incident, and other hints that the TSAB really sucks at protecting Lost Logia and planning secure transport.

The details surrounding those cases are not elaborated on in canon so far as I know, and simply assuming that the TSAB was transporting them and that they weren't, for instance, being smuggled into Mid-Childa by a criminal organization with ties to Jail is jumping the gun.


What... the train incident was given in detail... they had the whole explanation about it in the mission brief in the anime. Now... it was stated IIRC they did not know exactly what it did, merely that it was lost logia they were transporting.

Given how it is know just how dangerous the things can be, there was no excuse for not having more heavy hitters on hand for transport of them.

Thus why I deemed it a bad track record... even if the full details of the airport incident are not known, that and the Jewel Seed incident from season one should be sufficient. And the airport incident was know to involved them just not exactly how. Given how fast things were mobilized though, I have to wonder just what did occur that they were readily on hand for it.

>>Nonsense... I did not leave it out. I assumed that was part of the need to be able to monitor and track her better, also ensured she lived until the right time. I consider that a very crappy thing on his part. But proves premeditation.
You assume much. He could have simply dumped her in an orphanage and bribed the people in charge to make sure she stayed there or something, instead he gave her a house, paid for her food and medical bills and made sure she had the coziest life a crippled pre-teen is capable of having for several years.

You are still attempting to justify a premeditated and orchestrated assassination plot against a girl years in advance of her having done anything merely on the potential she might do so. Whether it was truly intended as such by him or not... By paying for that house, he knew exactly where she would be. By paying for clothing and food, he knew exactly how she was living. By paying for the medical bills, he could monitor her exact state of health.

IMHO... he was wrong, and did not have approval, and betrayed not only that girl, but his fellow officers. In the end... you cannot tell me his motivation was not at least in part tainted by the fact his own son was a casualty of the previous incarnation of the book. Conflict of interest. All things considered... I thing he got off *extremely* light. Especially since Graham was the one backing Hayate getting into the TSAB, he did not give up influence when he 'retired'.

I have to wonder... had Gaiz lived... would he have also gotten off as lightly as Graham... Oh well.

>>I submit the TSAB had no jurisdiction over their actions since it was the TSAB, or members of such, that were manipulating Hayate and Knights... additionally, they were already under the issue of corrupt magic.

The Wolkenritter committed crimes across several different worlds. That makes them interdimensional criminals, which puts them in the bureau's jurisdiction by default. Also, Hayate disagrees with you regarding "they were being manipulated, so they're not guilty". Here's a quote from the A's manga.


Hmmm... I note you keep using manga references to back your claims... I've noted repeatedly I've only seen anime.

I am beginning to wonder if the novels are putting a nicer spin on things than the anime. If so any discussion on our part is counter productive, we are arguing two differing plots/series.

>>My point was Graham acted on his own and deliberately mislead the rest of the TSAB. This all could have been settled peacefully *years* ago. They could have explained things to the girl, or at least took her to TSAB doctors in guise of specialists and had her examined, they might have been able to solve her health issues, and if they did, or at least shown it, then the Knights would not have had to go on a mana/linker core vampirism spree. Graham should have made his case to the TSAB council (public, not private). Then everything would have been on the up and up. it also would have served as the best barometer of MidChildan society morality possible, but sadly we were denied that.

The problem with trying to examine the book is that THEY TRIED THAT BEFORE and the book went berserk on its own, that's what resulted in Clyde Harlaown's ship being destroyed. It's far more likely that trying to help Hayate would've triggered the book's self-defense program prematurely, which would most likely kill Hayate anyways and lose them the book for another generation.


Actually... Not quite correct, in anime at least. It was noted something was going wrong... but not exactly what caused the incident. It was out of the blue, it was not something accounted for, and thus they were unprepared and that was why the disaster occurred. They now would have better info, and the knowledge it could occur, if not why, and better prepare for the possibility.

>>Nothing can convince me any good could come of limiters on your highest mages in active combat roles.
Did you miss the two or three times where I mentioned that high-level mages operating in close quarters can cause time/space distortions? Because TIME/SPACE DISTORTIONS CAN DESTROY UNIVERSES, as we saw with the Jewel Seeds in the first season.


I missed none of the times you stated that. I merely point the limiters prove implicitly they do not trust their agents not to be stupid morons and kill themselves, and they let the agents know this by implication... and this method also gives them (high command), and nice comfortable level of control over their agents.



My opinion that you're more full of shit than anyone I've ever met who wasn't named arkhangelsk stands as well.

I see...

Sigh... There really is little need to devolve to personal insults... I'll just remember to not bother responding to such discussions in the future.

If you do not agree you are entitled to your opinion and view of canon source. Just as I am entitled to mine.

Well... I guess that ends any need for further discussion then. Do remember you were the one to have brought up this thread. I was content with my one liner in the other thread.

You might also be taking your SIG too much to heart... which as of this post was:
"KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End."




Now... as to Wyrd's comments:
Not even Utopia was a true Utopia. These things always come at a price, and part of that price in this universe is catching powerful mages young and training them to control their powers before they level their homes by accident. Many of TSAB's policies are dark, ill-advised, or even outright reprehensible, but I don't judge them worthy of being considered a villain as a whole any more than the entire Catholic church is the villain in the Three Musketeers just because Cardinal Richilieu was an evil git and because they had some policies that, in retrospect, were not well advised. Most of the cases for villainy in TSAB's case can be lain directly on the heads of a few individuals or on the problems of bureaucracy. Hmm, I think I might go add bureaucracy as the biggest villain of them all on that other thread.

I seem to have walked away from watching the MGLN anime series the darkest opinion of the TSAB I've yet seen on either this forum, or on TFF. Though a few others have expressed concerns or agreed with me on specific points.

However... even I never actually stated the organization *as a whole* is *evil*. I think them merely not in the interests of all. The best comparison from a sci fi standpoint is to compare Stargate to Star Trek. They both are star travelling, both have a good tech base... but Stargate is a far darker series than Star Trek... the way they handle situations is more toward 'what is in our best interests' rather than 'what is best compromise for the whole'.

Combine that with the sheer number of black ops, double crosses, and conspiracies inside the TSAB for a series only spanning some 50 1/2 hour episodes and a movie, and it paints a unhealthy picture of their morals.

Stargate has them as well, but spans 10 full seasons at 200+ 1 hour episodes, plus Atlantis, plus Universe. Star Trek has its conspiracies as well, but spans over 10 movies and 28 seasons.

Regrettibly... the closest two anime series I can think of to compare to MGLN is Sailor Moon and Magic Knight Rayearth. Neither comparison is a good one under closer scrutiny though. Sailor Moon anime characters have better morals than TSAB as a whole, but IMHO are for more incompetent, and Magic Knight Rayearth has its own moral issues, even if they constantly level up and learn fast.



For those interested, I am attaching my series notes for the three MGLN 3 seasons... They were never meant for public viewing, but figured as a final parting shot what the heck. They will have tons of spoilers so open at own risk. I did not initially think I would be keeping notes... Season 1 is the smallest in size. Season 3 by far the most detailed as it covered more characters and was 2 times the size of the other seasons.

As a FYI... these notes I took in somewhat the same format I do in a detailed fan fiction review... meaning they were all made as I watched. They are short, likely have misspellings still, and later comments will supersede previous ones as things are explained or as stuff is understood. They may let you guys understand where I'm coming from since they have my take on events.
Attachments
nanoha series notes.zip
(23.82 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
PCHeintz72
User avatar
Prism Power Senshi
Posts: 2705
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby claymade » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:08 pm

AdmiralTigerclaw wrote:First off, I'll state that I'm basing my opinion from an in-story perspective only. Blaming situation X on the creator's ability to create does not change the fact that situation X is set up. And justifying it that way doesn't mean a hill of beans.

I don't myself think it's so much a matter of "ability to create" as just "genre conventions." Certain genres just tend to have certain breaks from reality--breaks which certainly can be pointed out, if one is feeling in a particularly pedantic mood, but which most fans just treat with tacit understanding and move on.

So, yes. In an absolutely realistic world you really shouldn't be having your kids going out and fighting your wars for you, but rather keeping them safe, etc. Problem is, writers want to write shows targeted to various age groups, want to show them being the adventurers, which is exactly why we have tropes like The Competence Zone.

Of course, it's not realistic. It's not supposed to be realistic. That trope is little more than a narrative construction allowing writers to, basically, meld things such as school-based stories, and characters that will appeal to various sections of the audience, while still shoehorning in action/military-based plots as well.

And certainly, you can poke holes in the genre stuff by bringing in infusions of reality, similarly to how you can point out that "real" villains would just have shot 60's TV show Batman and Robin in the back with guns, rather than engaging them in fistfights and then leaving them strung up over a ridiculously elaborate deathtrap every single week. Such a point is absolutely true, so far as it goes... but it also kinda misses the point of the kind of story the writers were trying to tell.

Sometimes you just get more out of watching something if you just take it at face value as its being presented. Otherwise you'll cut a bloody swath of deconstruction over way more fiction than just Nanoha, to most everything that ever had kids as the main adventurers, or even just touched on the "kid sidekick".

I mean, sure, you can drop such a literary atom bomb if you want to. But why would you?
claymade
Asteroid Senshi
Posts: 935
 

Re: Morality and the TSAB?

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:44 pm

Not inside out. But he should know not to involve random people from other planets.

You seem to forget that he tried very hard to avoid getting Nanoha involved. Yuuno was constantly apologizing for causing so much trouble and tried to go off and find the Jewel Seeds on his own. Nanoha's response was, pretty much word-for-word, "Sorry, I can't let you do that". Yuuno might have gotten Nanoha involved by accident but it was Nanoha's choice to stay involved when she was offered numerous opportunities to bail out.

I am not now nor ever under the impression they are military hardware. It merely seemed that him having Raising Heart made no sense except in the form of being convenient to the plot so he could give it to Nanoha. His own Magic would not seem to be on the same scale as her's, and as such, why would he have a device that powerful.

Probably has something to do with RH's sealing form. He wasn't intending to use it for giant fuck-off beam spells, he just needed a way to hang on to the Jewel Seeds without setting them off. It's possible that you need a device of RH's power to hold those kinds of Lost Logia.

Fate's only actual crime is in running from the TSAB and defending herself.

That second one is called "resisting arrest", and is grounds for detainment all by itself in real life (I think the first one qualifies too). And as I said before, she also provided Precia with the Jewel Seeds, which makes her an accomplice. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia on the subject, italics are mine:

At law, an accomplice is a person who actively participates in the commission of a crime, even though they take no part in the actual criminal offense. For example, in a bank robbery, the person who points the gun at the teller and asks for the money is guilty of armed robbery. However, anyone else directly involved in the commission of the crime, such as the lookout or the getaway car driver, is an accomplice, even though in the absence of an underlying offense keeping a lookout or driving a car would not be an offense.

In this case, Precia's crime was using the Jewel Seeds and endangering several universes with a dimensional distortion, as well as a host of lesser offenses like resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, etc etc. Fate is guilty of providing her with the Jewel Seeds she used to commit said crime as well as the above-mentioned charges of resisting arrest and so on. Remember, in real life cops only need probable cause to arrest you, and the Asura has video recordings of Nanoha and Fate fighting over the Jewel Seeds even before they make it to Earth.

You are still attempting to justify a premeditated and orchestrated assassination plot against a girl years in advance of her having done anything merely on the potential she might do so.

"Potential" nothing, the Book is a death sentence. It's not a question of if it will kill you, it's a question of when.

Hmmm... I note you keep using manga references to back your claims... I've noted repeatedly I've only seen anime.

That's your failing for not being properly informed.
Currently Watching: Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu
Currently Playing: Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep
Currently Reading: Sora no Otoshimono

KILL the darkfic. BURN the angst. PURGE the Bad End.
Comartemis
User avatar
Crystal Power Senshi
Posts: 4559
 

Next

Return to Anime / Manga

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users