Magical boys

[bissek]

In the crossover twists thread, I made a comment on the topic of magical boys, as opposed to the traditional anime mainstay of magical girls. Some comments on how many of these there are and who qualifies arose. To prevent that thread from going off topic any longer, I am starting this one.

I am defining a magical boy as:

1: Male. Must be able to pass as human (This is not the same as being human). Preferably under the age of 20 (Though some of the older people might have qualified absolutely when they were younger).

2: Have some kind of magical/paranormal ability. The ability does not have to be innate to the character, it can be imbued in some artifact that the character possesses, such as a kakugane (Buso Renkin), a device (Nanoha), or a pactio card (Negima). Giant robots do not count as an artifact, though giant robots that are conjured by a paranormal artifact, such as Shosei Sakagauchi's Buster Baron (Buso Renkin), do.

3: The character must be willing to use that ability on behalf of others outside of their immediate family and social circle. This action does not have to be done in a way that is noticed by those acted on behalf of (Saving the world before anyone else knows that it is in danger is still saving the world, even if nobody thanks you for it). Preemptively acting to ensure that a threat never reaches the point where it can bring harm is just as valid as dealing with the threat after it appears. Situations where the action is done on behalf of a group which includes relatives and friends but is not exclusively (or primarily) in that category do qualify.

In the case of the Ranma cast, a lot of the NWC qualify for points one and two (Jusenkyo curses count, as does ki), but the question is on point three.

[mondu_the_fat]

The problem with magical boys is that it lacks one of the fundamental strength of magical girls -- the "girl growing up" part. Boys are not nearly as effective in conveying the loss of innocence and growing maturity as a girl does. This is why magical girls are _girls_ (not women) in the first place. This is also why there are often "sidekicks" to magical girls -- the sidekick being a voice of reason to the girl's impetuousness.

Without this plot element, a girl with magical powers is simply that, but not a "magical girl". Many of the characters from Ranma (or just about any of Takahashi's work) are incredibly stubborn; they may be immature, but this attitude that nearly all display seems to strip away the "innocent" part. Even given powers, even given the moral fiber to do what is right, I can't call any of them "magical girls" -- the closest I could call a magical girl in attitude would be Kasumi, and even she is arguable.

The SM RPG has a wonderful essay on this. Hang on a sec, I'll see if I can type it out or post a couple of screenshots.

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[claymade]

3: The character must be willing to use that ability on behalf of others outside of their immediate family and social circle. This action does not have to be done in a way that is noticed by those acted on behalf of (Saving the world before anyone else knows that it is in danger is still saving the world, even if nobody thanks you for it). Preemptively acting to ensure that a threat never reaches the point where it can bring harm is just as valid as dealing with the threat after it appears. Situations where the action is done on behalf of a group which includes relatives and friends but is not exclusively (or primarily) in that category do qualify.

Does it count if the "good deeds" are done for compensation--in other words, where it's more or less their day job, as opposed to their charity work? For example, the Tendo Dojo seems to run a monster hunting business--although Ranma, at least has certainly shown himself willing to pitch in on a pro bono basis as well when he happens to come across a monster plaguing people (e.g. going after the demon dog of the sea, saving Plum from the Pheonix people, etc.)

Also, when you say "willing to use that ability on behalf of others", does that cover cases where the person is using the ability to what he considers to be the benefit of others, but to which various members of the "others" may or may not agree is actually to their benefit? For example, Light from Death Note uses his magical item to (in his mind) serve the cause of justice and create a perfect, utopian world, which technically fits the exact criteria above. Most of the people he "benefits", however, would consider him a homicidal megalomaniac.

[KonokoHasano]

Hmm... let's see...

Allen Walker from the series D-Gray-man. His left eye allows him to see Akuma, and his left arm is an anti-akuma weapon.

Recca Hanabishi from the series Flame of Recca. He has flame powers.

In a way, you could say the male members of the Sohma family from Fruits Basket considering that they transform.

Kiyo Takamine -- along with Zatch/Gash -- from Zatch/Gash Bell could be considered.

Kazuma Azuma from Yakitate!! Japan could be of consideration. He has unusually warm hands known as 'Solar Hands' that allow the yeast to ferment faster and better as he makes bread. I... guess that's a special power.

Magic Kaito from both Magic Kaito and Detective Conan -- Magic Kaito's a spin-off series. Okay, maybe he is a 'phantom thief', but he's still a magician.

Ai Shiomi from Psychic Academy. He goes to an academy for psychics, and he has the 'Light Aura' power.

Kyousuke from Ultimate Hentai Kamen. He -- kind of -- gains an increase in strength and all by donning a pair of panties onto his head.

Yuusuke from Yuu Yuu Hakusho. Well, he does have paranormal abilities, along with Kuwabara and a few other characters.

[bissek]

I'm only familiar with the beginning of Death Note. I'd say that the guy's first use of the Death Note - killing a man holding hostages in a way that the criminal can't hurt any of them in the process - might qualify as a good act. However, that kind of power just screams 'Easily Corrupted'. After the point where I lost interest, Light could easily have been turned into a monster. If he ever uses the Death Note to take out somebody because of something they might do, or because of something they were already punished for, then he's crossed that line.

On the other direction, Shusui Hayasaka of Buso Renkin starts out caring about only one person - his sister (In fact, he and his sister start out as second-string villains). By the end of the story he joins up with the Alchemic Army to contain a threat against the entire world. He would not have qualified at his first appearance, but might at the end.

Only the other point, please note that every single magical girl in Nanoha StrikerS is in government employ. So heroes can be paid to be heroes. The question is: Are they heroes that just happen to get paid to help people, or are they people who do a job that just happens to involve helping people?

[mondu_the_fat]

I'm only familiar with the beginning of Death Note. I'd say that the guy's first use of the Death Note - killing a man holding hostages in a way that the criminal can't hurt any of them in the process - might qualify as a good act.

Murder is never a good act, even if it means saving others. It is expedient. The goal might have been good. But it is NOT a good act.

[Comartemis]

Yuuno Scraia
Chrono Harlaown
Li Syaoran
Shirou Emiya
Tenchi Masaki
Negi Springfield

Murder is never a good act, even if it means saving others. It is expedient. The goal might have been good. But it is NOT a good act.

In other words, a perfectly viable means to an end, but one to be avoided if possible. This is a discussion for another thread.

[mondu_the_fat]

In other words, a perfectly viable means to an end,

No its not. What part of "never" does it mean "viable"?

but one to be avoided if possible. This is a discussion for another thread.

And this is a perfect discussion for this thread. Any girl that murders someone automatically fails as a magical girl. This should also apply to boys.

Accident is acceptable. Unavoidable is acceptable. And no, what Light did was not unavoidable. He could have simply not done it; you can argue that this would have lead to deaths, but it was still a choice.

[bissek]

Kurama/Suichi Minamino (possibly. Iffy on point #3. I really doubt Hiei would clear point 3)
Kazuma Kuwabara
Kazuki Muto
Gouta Nakamura may or may not qualify. He might have trained for the job of protecting the world from homunculi, but he spends the entire anime protecting the girl he's sweet on from homicidally overzealous ex-teammates. He never gets the opportunity to fight on behalf of people outside his social circle.

Remember, it's not just having the powers, it's what you do with them.

[claymade]

Murder is never a good act, even if it means saving others.

Would you consider killing Queen Beryl to save the world a good act? If so, how's it different, in principle, from killing a gunman to save some hostages? Do the senshi fail as Magical Girls?

That's a side point, though. The main question was more fundamental--whether the definition of "magical boy" actually implies "good magical boy." The literal form of point three is phrased in a way that's technically subjective--when you're talking about "willingness", you're talking about the prospective MB's own view of what is right, which is why I was unsure of the critera.

Per bissek's latest post, though, I'm assuming that it actually is required that the MB must be actually working as a clearly-defined "good guy."

Only the other point, please note that every single magical girl in Nanoha StrikerS is in government employ. So heroes can be paid to be heroes. The question is: Are they heroes that just happen to get paid to help people, or are they people who do a job that just happens to involve helping people?

That really strikes me as a devilish distinction to actually make, to tell you the truth. Could we just say that if they've made it their job to help people, that in itself is sufficiently heroic to qualify them as a MB?

Here's another question on the "under the age of 20" bit. Is that based on their actual length of existence, or the apparent age of the form they take at any given time? In other words, how would we handle cases like Yoko Kurama--or Sasami on the MG side?

[mondu_the_fat]

Murder is never a good act, even if it means saving others.

Would you consider killing Queen Beryl to save the world a good act?

No. The goal was good. The act wasn't.

There might have been no other choice. It still wasn't a good act.

[Comartemis]

No its not. What part of "never" does it mean "viable"?

You said murder is "never good", not "never an option". Hence it is a perfectly viable option for saving the world or stopping the bad guy, all questions of morality aside.

Accident is acceptable.

Any magical girl/boy who kills someone on accident should probably turn in her transformation pen before she does it again.

[claymade]

No. The goal was good. The act wasn't.

So then, by the criteria you set out of any "girl that murders someone automatically fails as a magical girl. This should also apply to boys", the Senshi should then not be considered magical girls, correct? Similarly, our list of boys is probably going to be quite a bit shorter if we go through them with that particular pruning criteria...

There might have been no other choice.

Certainly there was another choice. The same choice you gave Light. Just sit back and don't do anything.

[bissek]

The age thing was meant more in terms of biological age. Most people defined as magical girls are high school age or younger. I wanted parity on that issue.

With the job thing, I was thinking NOT on the order of Antihero For Hire, where the protagonist goes out looking for criminals because the police pay registered superheroes a bounty for every criminal brought in. At one point he even prevents another hero from killing a recurring villain, on the grounds that Dr Nefarious' schemes schemes are high-profile enough to be worth a lot when thwarted, and stupidly executed enough to be easy to thwart. Thus making the mad scientist a regular income source.

Of course, that example is kind of extreme. The issue is mentality. Do they want to help people, or do they want to make a living?

[mondu_the_fat]

No its not. What part of "never" does it mean "viable"?

You said murder is "never good", not "never an option".

I never said it was never an option. This is the second time you've tried to put a spin on my words which is completely false. You even put it in quotes... considering you are quoting no one.

I said it was not a good act. There's a world of difference between choosing something and something happening by accident.

Does choosing to kill someone automatically make you an evil person? Does it mean it was the wrong choice? It does not. However, the act is still not a good act.

The point here is that once a person CHOOSES to do something bad, he is no longer an innocent. Despite his age, despite his morals, he is no longer an innocent. He may still be a good person, he may still be magical, but he is no longer a boy.

Certainly there was another choice. The same choice you gave Light. Just sit back and don't do anything.

Exactly my point. Yes, he could have chosen just to sit back. Yes, the people may have died and that would have been bad. However, murder is still not a good act, and choosing not to kill someone is a good one.

So then, by the criteria you set out of any "girl that murders someone automatically fails as a magical girl. This should also apply to boys", the Senshi should then not be considered magical girls, correct?

Yes. And not after Beryl's death, likely no. They've lost their innocence at that point. They are still, by lip service, magical girls, because that was how the series was started. But magical girls in the sense that they are young and inexperienced? not in the slightest. And if you're going to talk about the various Youma they dispatched, keep in mind that the senshi really didn't seem to consider them as "living". For all the guilt they displayed (none), they likely didn't consider it as murder (no more than the Star Wars universe considers the destruction of droids as murder -- you won't get a dark side point if you whack a droid with the force). They chose to end the Youmas, but likely they didn't consider it murder. Beryl and the generals they likely viewed in a different manner, mainly because they appeared human enough.