Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

[Rei-chan]

They are a year older and from the previous graduating class going on what Gai and others say about the time they get introduced. Part of why I wonder about Naruto's supposed failures since even the terminology indicates that only the final year students should be allowed to take the test. Also Naruto not having had classes with the other students until his second repeat of his final year would explain his lack of knowledge about any of them seeing as he should know something no matter how much he didn't pay attention.

[Zwzn]

They are a year older and from the previous graduating class going on what Gai and others say about the time they get introduced. Part of why I wonder about Naruto's supposed failures since even the terminology indicates that only the final year students should be allowed to take the test. Also Naruto not having had classes with the other students until his second repeat of his final year would explain his lack of knowledge about any of them seeing as he should know something no matter how much he didn't pay attention.

The test we see Naruto take seems to have almost been chosen so Naruto would fail, or do poorly. Naruto said something along the lines as it was the one thing he couldn't do well, and Mizuki seems to have planned to use Naruto to steal the scroll, and Iruka liked Naruto, but was hard on Naruto. It makes one wonder if Naruto was really the bottom of his class, or if people took steps that made him look like he was the the worst student for verying reasons.

Similarly one has to wonder why Hinata's father thinks she is weak when she is able to fight Neji so closely even though Neji had all the advatages in the chunin exam. One year training under Gai, and longer reach should have made Hinata no challenge at all to Neji. It makes one wonder who the real Hyuga prodigy is.

[Konsaki]

The test we see Naruto take seems to have almost been chosen so Naruto would fail, or do poorly. Naruto said something along the lines as it was the one thing he couldn't do well, and Mizuki seems to have planned to use Naruto to steal the scroll, and Iruka liked Naruto, but was hard on Naruto. It makes one wonder if Naruto was really the bottom of his class, or if people took steps that made him look like he was the the worst student for verying reasons.

IIRC, the word of god says that Naruto wasnt dead last in the class, it was just what Sasuke's insult of 'dumbass' was changed to in the US. And really, how can Naruto be deadlast if he's able to evade Chunin and ANBU in the first episode and there are 'no name' characters who wash out of the grad class?

Similarly one has to wonder why Hinata's father thinks she is weak when she is able to fight Neji so closely even though Neji had all the advatages in the chunin exam. One year training under Gai, and longer reach should have made Hinata no challenge at all to Neji. It makes one wonder who the real Hyuga prodigy is.

Guy cant train Neji in the Hyuuga style of fighting because it's a clan only style (barring the fact that Guy could memorize the moves but not the chakra part of it). Hence, no bonus there for the fight with Hinata.
Hinata is actually well trained by her clan, due to her being the Heiress and all. The problem she sufferes is the low self-esteem and self-confidence, which gets rectified by Naruto cheering her on in the Chunin exam, but to no avail due to Negi's longer reach and extra year of experience, not counting the years of higher willpower he posessed and used in his training after getting the 'slave seal'.

[Zwzn]

IIRC, the word of god says that Naruto wasnt dead last in the class, it was just what Sasuke's insult of 'dumbass' was changed to in the US. And really, how can Naruto be deadlast if he's able to evade Chunin and ANBU in the first episode and there are 'no name' characters who wash out of the grad class?

From what we see they seemingly randomly chose a technique, and if you couldn't do it well you failed. IF the teachers just happened to say choose stuff they knew Naruto needed to work on he could come out of the tests with the lowest scores. The test we see forced Naruto to do the one thing he was not good at remember.

Maybe the skills he used to play pranks, and steal the scroll where not have been what they where testing him on?

Maybe what Naruto had to do in each test was something he needed help with?

Maybe Naruto doesn't do well on the type of tests they gave him?

Guy cant train Neji in the Hyuuga style of fighting because it's a clan only style (barring the fact that Guy could memorize the moves but not the chakra part of it). Hence, no bonus there for the fight with Hinata.
Hinata is actually well trained by her clan, due to her being the Heiress and all. The problem she sufferes is the low self-esteem and self-confidence, which gets rectified by Naruto cheering her on in the Chunin exam, but to no avail due to Negi's longer reach and extra year of experience, not counting the years of higher willpower he posessed and used in his training after getting the 'slave seal'.

Everyone who is at least being trained as a ninja learns basic gentle fist. The branch house as i understand it branch houses are not taught the more advanced techniques, but neither Hinata nor Neji used more then basic gentle fist during their fight in the exam.

The seal on Neji's forehead only comes into play if he dies, or someone knows how to activate it, and we know no one activated the seal.

Guy is a hand to hand expert. Even if he does not know the gentle fist he would be a great help in training in any hand to hand style. Just because Guy can't use the style does not mean he can't train someone in it.

Rock Lee is stupidly fast, strong, and skilled. Having him as a sparing partner is a huge advantage for Neji

Tenten is one of the best weapons users we see, and is an expert marksman. This is again a huge advantage for Neji when it come to training.

Neji had 2 years of training to Hinata's 1. At the ages Neji and Hinata where at a year is a very long time.

Neji had longer arms and legs then Hinata. This again is an advantage for Neji.

Kurenai is a Genjutsu specialist. This is a disadvantage for Hinata's training in the gentle fist.

Self-esteem boosts don't boost skill, or strength, and Hinata would have had good reason to back down. Neji does not have lots of will power. He couldn't control his temper when he faced Hinata, and that is why he nearly killed, and didn't realize what he was about to do.

Basically Hinata is about as good a hand to hand as Neji in spite of Neji have a huge number of advantages over her.

That is why I question if Neji is not over rated, and Hinata under rated.

Neji should have easily defeated Hinata, but he nearly lost. The only reason he seems to be considered a prodigy is because he figured out how to do the advanced gentle fist techniques without being told how to do them. Heaven forbid Konohagakure ever meet a ninja named Ranma or Ryoga because they will all die from the shock of seeing the skill and power they have.

[lwf58]

It's true that the insults Sasuke and Naruto use are badly misinterpreted in fanon.

"Dobe" doesn't mean "dead last" or "lowest class placement". It means "unskilled", with a connotation best summed up as "klutz" or "goof".

"Teme" isn't an insult like "bastard" (one of the more common interpretations I've seen). Nor is it a suffix (how many times have you seen someone misuse it by writing "Sasuke-teme"?). It quite literally means "you". It's just a rough and impolite way of saying "you", and is considered insulting because it implies lack of respect.

Of course, Naruto fan fiction is full to the brim with misconceptions and misinterpretations. It's possibly the victim of more wrong interpretations and misconceptions than just about any other show. Things like mistakes in clothing (Naruto wears a jumpsuit, Anko wears a fishnet top), Naruto's treatment in the village (Naruto was physically abused, threatened with death, sold rotten food), or events (Lee dressing like Guy or having a similar haircut before being assigned to Guy's team).

Seems to me that Naruto fan fiction is as bad or worse than Ranma fan fiction when it comes to people writing based on fanon rather than canon material.

[Zwzn]

It's true that the insults Sasuke and Naruto use are badly misinterpreted in fanon.

"Dobe" doesn't mean "dead last" or "lowest class placement". It means "unskilled", with a connotation best summed up as "klutz" or "goof".

"Teme" isn't an insult like "bastard" (one of the more common interpretations I've seen). Nor is it a suffix (how many times have you seen someone misuse it by writing "Sasuke-teme"?). It quite literally means "you". It's just a rough and impolite way of saying "you", and is considered insulting because it implies lack of respect.

Of course, Naruto fan fiction is full to the brim with misconceptions and misinterpretations. It's possibly the victim of more wrong interpretations and misconceptions than just about any other show. Things like mistakes in clothing (Naruto wears a jumpsuit, Anko wears a fishnet top), Naruto's treatment in the village (Naruto was physically abused, threatened with death, sold rotten food), or events (Lee dressing like Guy or having a similar haircut before being assigned to Guy's team).

Seems to me that Naruto fan fiction is as bad or worse than Ranma fan fiction when it comes to people writing based on fanon rather than canon material.

Dobe as it is used doesn't make sense then. At least calling Naruto last makes sense in the sense it is easy to see how he could be as skilled as he is, and still score poorly on home work and tests. You would think would at least have a talk with Sasuke so he would use insults that make sense, but then you would think they would want their teams to get along with each other.

[lwf58]

Sasuke calling Naruto "dobe" makes perfect sense to me. Naruto, in the academy, has very a very poor skill set when it comes to the basics. He also does not use strategy in his fighting. Naruto's "style" can best be summed up as "jump into the fight headfirst and swing until he hits something". When he learns kage bunshin, his style evolves into "have a bunch of shadow clones jump into the fight headfirst and swing until they hit something".

It isn't until later that he begins using his brain. Specifically, he starts getting serious about being a good fighter during the Bridge arc, after facing the Demon Brothers. Once he puts his heart into it, his head catches onto the game plan and follows. Even then, his progress is slowed by the fact that Kakashi doesn't bother to give him any worthwhile training. Up to the chuunin exams, Kakashi's "training" consists of teaching the three of them how to walk up a tree. It takes Jiraiya stepping in before he finally gets taught a few of the things he needs to know to be a good ninja.

Sasuke, based on the Naruto he knew in school, had every reason to think of Naruto as a goof-off with no valuable talents, and he wasn't the only one to call Naruto "dobe". IIRC, Kiba also called him that.

As for Naruto's use of "teme"... Chalk that one up to the fact that Japanese is a very unsatisfying language to swear in. Much of their version of cursing is simply being impolite and/or using words that imply they have higher social standing than the person they are addressing when they do not. They don't use the kind of words an English speaker would in a similar situation. Thus, Naruto is just hitting the limitations of the language when he uses a rude form of "you" when talking to Sasuke. Of course, to the Japanese, being impolite and using condescending phrasing is highly insulting.

[Konsaki]

It is important to note that a good bit of 'training' is religated to off panel/screen, unless it is pivital to the story. (i.e. Sauske learning Chidori or Naruto: waterwalking or sage mode) To have all the training on screen would be a buttload of filler, which would suck even more than the crappy filler arcs they use in the Anime already.
Still, it is annoying that Ebisu got just as much training time as Kakashi in panel before the time shift.

[Nekomata-sensei]

WTF?!!!?!

I just read the latest chapter, after all that build up and cool fight with Pain and meeting the 4th in the seal and all sorts of Amazingness from Naruto with sage mode and lots of toad summons and thrown sage wind suriken rasengans that destroy super-ninja, he goes around and somehow get Pain to somehow sacrifice himself to bring everyone Pain had just killed in Konoha back to life?!

Here we were, thinking they'd ended Kakashi and Shizune for good, we were appropriately morning them, and didn't think they'd killed off any truly important characters to the future plot, and we'd get to see Naruto kill Nagato in some big ass cool final battle and... Nagato sacrifices himself to bring Konoha people who'd died that day back to life??!!! Seriously, WTF?!!? ...

And look, someone just destroyed Konoha, and thanks to Naruto, with effectively no loss of life except bad guys, and two of Akatsuki's major players have been negated and... lookie here, we have Sasuke coming to destroy Konoha, gee wiz!

At least this is likely to bring about the big final rival showdown between Naruto and Sasuke and either lead to Sasuke's death or conversion back to Konoha side. Hey, and maybe we'll get to have Kakashi kick Madara's ass totally unexpectedly, becoming better at the sharingan than any Uchiha. After all, theoretically Kakashi might have gotten the eternal form since the Sharingan was originally oibito's, he got it to Mangekyo, and then temporarily died, that might be a way to get the Eternal form, or something...

I have this sudden vision of a new badass Kakashi with a repaired chakra fang after making up with his father in the afterlife, Eternal Mangekyo sharingan, and perhaps some old internal injuries healed from being resurrected after taking serious damage and chakra burnout death and now he has S-class chakra reserves too, from having to get his chakra system fixed up in order to come back. Sasuke is like, 'It's all Konoha's fault, die!' and Naruto's like 'come back Sasuke', and Sasuke is like 'No, die, oh, and I've got you with genjutsu', and Naruto is like 'ha, Itachi did some freaky eat a crow thing on me and made me immune to genjutsu for a day that activated as soon as you used a genjutsu on me, cause, like, I'm a cooler brother than him, he said, and he wants you to come back to Konoha' and Sasuke is like 'no way, Madara kicks ass, I hate Konoha still, it's the 3rd's orders and the elders and Danzou that had Itachi kill my family', and Naruto is like 'but we still like you Sasuke, come back', and Sasuke is like 'die', and Naruto's like 'Damn, I can't kill you, and all my attacks besides Kage bunshin are stupidly lethal and look at you destroy all those billions of kage bunshin', and Kakashi is like 'SMACKDOWN, just before you were about to kill the real Naruto', and Sasuke is like 'KAKASHI?! WTF!? PAIN KILLED YOUR ASS!!!?' and Kakashi is like 'I'm too cool to die, now I'm your opponent, don't worry Naruto, I have over 1000 techniques, and only 1/3rd of them are lethal' and Naruto is like 'Wow, Kakashi is kicking Sasuke's ass, I'd better take out his annoying snakey team-mates without really hurting them, cause they aren't as skilled as Sasuke, oh look, I get to be all cool against this curse seal origin guy, and we get to finally find out his backstory' and Sasuke is like 'Super curse seal, kick ass', and Kakashi is like 'real training is cooler than curse seal, you suck this much, 1000 years of pain, ass poke of doom Konoha style!!!' and Sasuke is like 'I love you Kakashi! Okay, I'll come back to Konoha.' and Kakashi is like 'WTF?! get away from me, I'm straight dammit!' and Sakura is like 'NOO! Sasuke-kun is gay! Oh well, at least I can spy on him and see yaoi'

Oh, and Naruto is like 'Yay, the day is saved... you know, this Danzou bastard is getting really annoying... he seems to have created half the bad guys just by being a huge jerk...' 'LETS ALL KILL DANZOU!'

[Konsaki]

@Nekomata
I laughed.

[CRBWildcat]

Heh. If there's anything I've learned from reading this and One Piece, it's that any fool thing can happen by the time the series ends. The latest development was unexpected, sure, but it wasn't really all that surprising.

[Ran]

Yeah, Holy Reset Button Batman!

That said, interesting to see where the Akatsuki came from and I look forward to seeing Naruto and Sasuke beat the crap out of each other. Though I wouldn't mind if it happens to be a bit one sided in favour of Naruto.

[Ran]

Regardless of what you think about the series, the whole Naruto has already achieved the recognition he sought as a kid was a really awesome scene in chapter 450.

[Nekomata-sensei]

I agree, I liked how they did it, especially with how it directly preceded Danzou becoming Hokage. Suddenly I want Sasuke to successfully assassinate the Hokage...

[Yrael]

Trying out the new spoiler tags, since this definitely qualifies. Maybe.

SPOILER - Show Spoiler

Apologies if this has already been revealed and I missed it. But I think that I may have figured out who Madra is.

He has spikey black hair. Semi-tall. And we only ever see his right eye. Uchiha Madra, who fought the Shodai Hokage for control on Konoha in the beginning and lost. Who had well-known differences in terms of how they thought a village should be handled. Sound like anyone we know?

Yep, you guessed it. Danzo. You know, that guy who has bandages covering his right eye, the one that we see on Tobi. Who is now Konoha's new hokage. My theory is that he has the same problem as Kakashi where he can't turn the sharingan off in his right eye. And since that would tip Konoha off to his identity, he plays the wounded war veteran in Konoha to disguise it.

But how could Danzo be prancing about as Tobi while playing politician? I'm guessing either Kage Bunshin, or a modification of the astral projection technique that Akasuki used to meet. Since I imagine Madra created the technique, it would stand to reason that he also knows how to affect the solidity of the projection. It could be really ugly if that technique is a bastard variation of a Sharingan-copied hirashin no justu.

Thoughts?