Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

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Re: Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

Postby Konsaki » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:47 pm

Cam, in my opinion, you've misevaluated the military/civilain rate of the Hidden Villages. IMO, they'ed be more likely to have a military value of closer to 30-40% of the city population (assuming all Hidden Villages are the same size, which they aren't). You have to remember that the Villages' main income maker is mercenary work, not farming or industry based like most nations in the real world, which would demand that a greater ratio of Mil:Civ existed to continue and increase the income. Even using a low 25% rate of Mil:Civ, to have a 80,000 man army ready, you'd only need a combined population of at least 320,000 to support it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that 'neutral' village also supplying it's chakra samurai into the army, further skewing the needed population of the Ninja Villages? Factor that in and the Villages might have even less than 320,000 combined population.

One last thing, you are confusing the Ninja Hidden Village population as the ONLY population for the entire country they reside in. This is completely incorrect as each of the ruling Daimyo has a standing army of samurai and we know of other places like a warrior monk temple which the immortal duo slaughtered. Remember that Fire Nation is a big country in the Naruto Universe and for it just to have only Kohona in it... well, that's not much of a hidden village then is it (course it's not really hidden when everyone has to know where it is to hire ninja...)
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Re: Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

Postby camk4evr » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:30 am

Konsaki, I don't mean to be rude but I believe that you misread my post. Firstly, I included the Land of Iron's forces when I made my calculations. Secondly, I didn't confuse the Hidden Village population to be the entire population of the country. the ~4 million was the combined popultations of the 6 nations needed to support the combined force of 80,000 that Zwzn said they had to throw at Madara. In fact, I didn't even attempt to guess what the hidden village population was.

I admit I did make a mistake in that I didn't include the combat ninjas left behind to defend the Hidden Villages and perform their usual mercenary tasks which could easily double the numbers I calculated. However, I have trouble believing that Konoha could supply even the 13000+ troops that would be it's fair share (that's assuming that each village and the Land of Iron each had the same sized military force which we all know is not the case), never mind the ninjas they have to leave behind (ie support ninja, defenders etc), as it doesn't look big enough to produce the numbers necessary even if 50-60% of it's population were ninjas. We could probably assume that some of the numbers are made up of ninjas from the minor hidden villages (which would then scew the population numbers down again as the minor villages are from other, smaller, nations).

Another reason that I say that the population density is low is due to the wide stretches of unpopulated land that we see as the characters travel.
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Re: Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

Postby Zwzn » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:16 am

camk4evr wrote:Konsaki, I don't mean to be rude but I believe that you misread my post. Firstly, I included the Land of Iron's forces when I made my calculations. Secondly, I didn't confuse the Hidden Village population to be the entire population of the country. the ~4 million was the combined popultations of the 6 nations needed to support the combined force of 80,000 that Zwzn said they had to throw at Madara. In fact, I didn't even attempt to guess what the hidden village population was.

I admit I did make a mistake in that I didn't include the combat ninjas left behind to defend the Hidden Villages and perform their usual mercenary tasks which could easily double the numbers I calculated. However, I have trouble believing that Konoha could supply even the 13000+ troops that would be it's fair share (that's assuming that each village and the Land of Iron each had the same sized military force which we all know is not the case), never mind the ninjas they have to leave behind (ie support ninja, defenders etc), as it doesn't look big enough to produce the numbers necessary even if 50-60% of it's population were ninjas. We could probably assume that some of the numbers are made up of ninjas from the minor hidden villages (which would then scew the population numbers down again as the minor villages are from other, smaller, nations).

Another reason that I say that the population density is low is due to the wide stretches of unpopulated land that we see as the characters travel.

The translation I found online says Mist, Cloud, Leaf, Iron, Sand, and Rock have what Madara believes to be about 80,000 ninja/samurai force combined that he expects to have to fight.

One thing to keep in mind is that Naruto's academy class had at least 27 kids who past, and that is just one class. Of Naruto's graduating year only nine are seen again.
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Re: Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

Postby camk4evr » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:54 am

Zwzn wrote:The translation I found online says Mist, Cloud, Leaf, Iron, Sand, and Rock have what Madara believes to be about 80,000 ninja/samurai force combined that he expects to have to fight.

One thing to keep in mind is that Naruto's academy class had at least 27 kids who past, and that is just one class. Of Naruto's graduating year only nine are seen again.



Yes, and if I remember correctly Kakashi tells them that only 9 can go on to be genin with the other 18 going back to the academy (Naruto vol. 1 Chapter 4). Now, while he could have just been messing with them, I counted the number of jounin called before the Hokage at the start of the Chunin exams and found that there was only 15-17 (it's kinda had to tell with the way they were bunched up) and only three of them had new Genin. That's 135-141 genin. That means that it'd take about 100 years to produce 1300-1400 hundred ninjas at only one class a year and 25 years to produce the same amount if you assume that there are 4 classes a year as Naruto failed the Genin exam 3 times (though I could be misremembering and am mixing it up with something else). It would take Konoha 250-1000 years to produce 13,000 ninjas.
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Re: Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

Postby Zwzn » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:06 am

Zwzn wrote:The translation I found online says Mist, Cloud, Leaf, Iron, Sand, and Rock have what Madara believes to be about 80,000 ninja/samurai force combined that he expects to have to fight.

One thing to keep in mind is that Naruto's academy class had at least 27 kids who past, and that is just one class. Of Naruto's graduating year only nine are seen again.

camk4evr wrote:Yes, and if I remember correctly Kakashi tells them that only 9 can go on to be genin with the other 18 going back to the academy (Naruto vol. 1 Chapter 4). Now, while he could have just been messing with them, I counted the number of jounin called before the Hokage at the start of the Chunin exams and found that there was only 15-17 (it's kinda had to tell with the way they were bunched up) and only three of them had new Genin. That's 135-141 genin. That means that it'd take about 100 years to produce 1300-1400 hundred ninjas at only one class a year and 25 years to produce the same amount if you assume that there are 4 classes a year as Naruto failed the Genin exam 3 times (though I could be misremembering and am mixing it up with something else). It would take Konoha 250-1000 years to produce 13,000 ninjas.

That kind of makes it sound like they are trying to keep a set number of ninja, or at least genin.

It also means they have almost ready trained ninja ready in case of the need for a draft.
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Re: Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

Postby camk4evr » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:03 am

Zwzn wrote:That kind of makes it sound like they are trying to keep a set number of ninja, or at least genin.


Won't deny that. As incredibly moronic as that would appear to you or me it seems accurate.

It also means they have almost ready trained ninja ready in case of the need for a draft.


Not really. The best academy graduates (who don't make genin) would be almost ready for D class missions and putting them on a team would tie up a jounin actually reducing the number of avaible, combat capable, ninja. Hell, they wouldn't even make useful cannon fodder.
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Re: Naruto Manga Progression *Spoilers!*

Postby Zwzn » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:27 am

camk4evr wrote:
Won't deny that. As incredibly moronic as that would appear to you or me it seems accurate.

Well they seem to pay the ninja by the job. Lots of ninja with nothing to do and short on money sounds like it could lead to bad things.

It also means they have almost ready trained ninja ready in case of the need for a draft.

camk4evr wrote:Not really. The best academy graduates (who don't make genin) would be almost ready for D class missions and putting them on a team would tie up a jounin actually reducing the number of avaible, combat capable, ninja. Hell, they wouldn't even make useful cannon fodder.

D ranked missions are things people with no ninja training are qualified to do. They better be ready for D ranked missions. :?

Well it seems like during the Sand and Sound invasion most ninja on both sides just tried to stab each other, or throw sharp pointy stuff at each other. Sasuke right out of the academy was at a high end chunin level.

Starting from scratch would take years at least, and having warm who already have basic training that can be thrown at the enemy is always a good thing.
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