Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby CRBWildcat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:25 pm

Instead they put Jail in Jail along with his most loyal followers and let his creations run loose once they'd been through rehab and gotten themselves a proper set of morals.


...Thus living up to his name at last.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby al103 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:47 am

Enomoto was a Vice Admiral; Jail was just a terrorist, and the Numbers were his (brainwashed?) footsoldiers.

Enomoto was president. On previously Japanese owned territory.

Besides, Takeaki was only pardoned because the new government recognized that he had skills and knowledge they could make use of. If that was the kind of thinking the TSAB was using, then they would have pardoned Jail and made use of his expertise in making Combat Cyborgs. Instead they put Jail in Jail along with his most loyal followers and let his creations run loose once they'd been through rehab and gotten themselves a proper set of morals.

Because TSAB not idiots? They had given chance to ones they could safely give chance to and locked dangerous ones.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Comartemis » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:22 pm

Enomoto was president. On previously Japanese owned territory.

What's your point? He's still not a terrorist so he and his situation can't be compared to Jail and the Numbers. As a matter of fact, that makes the situation even more different from when Enomoto was just a Vice Admiral and therefore even less applicable to Jail's situation.

Come to think of it, this line of reasoning isn't even relevant to the current discussion. The argument was that the Numbers--not Jail--had committed crimes that no modern government--and by modern I mean a civilized and relatively corruption-free government like we have in the USA and the European Union--would pardon with simple community service and so the TSA courts must be operating on a different set of laws and standards than what we use in our modern courts.

But your argument didn't even address the Numbers, you targeted Jail's circumstances through your usage of an enemy leader who was pardoned and "befriended" by his opposing government. Tell me, did Enomoto's subordinates get pardoned for their crimes against the Meiji government, or was it just Enomoto himself who got pardoned? Given what I know of ancient Japanese culture I think it more likely they either committed seppuku or were simply executed, and if I'm right then your entire argument falls into complete ruin.

Because TSAB not idiots? They had given chance to ones they could safely give chance to and locked dangerous ones.

They could still have made use of Jail, they'd just have to be a lot more careful about monitoring him. Like ATC was saying on AnimeSuki a day or two ago, they could stick him in a top-secret Area 51-style facility far from civilian eyes and have him monitored around the clock while he churns out Combat Cyborgs for them. Surrounded by TSA troops and authorities, the chances of Jail getting a chance to go rogue again become slim to none if he loses complete authority over his creations. Quattro and the others wouldn't be allowed to go free of course, but Jail still had his uses if the TSAB was willing to make use of him and his skills.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Uldihaa » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:11 pm

Comartemis wrote:They could still have made use of Jail, they'd just have to be a lot more careful about monitoring him. Like ATC was saying on AnimeSuki a day or two ago, they could stick him in a top-secret Area 51-style facility far from civilian eyes and have him monitored around the clock while he churns out Combat Cyborgs for them. Surrounded by TSA troops and authorities, the chances of Jail getting a chance to go rogue again become slim to none if he loses complete authority over his creations. Quattro and the others wouldn't be allowed to go free of course, but Jail still had his uses if the TSAB was willing to make use of him and his skills.


I was under the impression that this is what the High Council and General Whats-his-name was doing with Jail just before, and during, StrikerS; and because he slipped the leash then, the TSAB has no intention of giving him another opportunity to do it again.

As for the whole 'How much control does/did the BoD have over the Knights' question, I'm going to say 'a whole lot'. It's heavily implied that it can, and does, alter the Knights' memories; Vita states, at least once, that she feels like she's forgotten something important and, when confronted by Nanoha, it's obvious that she can't remember the original/proper name of the Book. That, to me, shows that the Book had at least enough control over the Knights to erase/block/suppress their memories; that implies that the Knights probably didn't remember what the real consequences of completing the Book were; if I remember right, they thought that Hayate would simply become the Book's full master and would no longer be dying due to the Book's leeching of her life (and it's quite possible that the Book subtly inclined them toward completing it, though this might be reading too much into it).

As for the brainwashing of the Numbers, we have a very clear example that not only was it possible, it was done to at least one of them. Which one? Number Thirteen... Suburu's sister, Ginga. The fact is, we really don't know how much, or how little, direct control over the Numbers Jail had; however, due to the brainwashing of Ginga, I'm inclined to accept that he actually had quite a bit of control.

EDIT: Grraaah! That StrikerS Sound Stage X needs to be an ONA series or a two to three episode OVA :wink: .
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Comartemis » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:16 pm

I was under the impression that this is what the High Council and General Whats-his-name was doing with Jail just before, and during, StrikerS; and because he slipped the leash then, the TSAB has no intention of giving him another opportunity to do it again.

Regius and the High Council had no direct control over Jail in the sense that they didn't have agents in Jail's lair monitoring and reporting on his activities and making very sure he wasn't doing anything he wasn't supposed to. The only real control over him they had was that they were covering his tracks for him and the council was probably providing him with some amount of funding. Presumably if they thought Jail was getting out of hand, they could cut off his funding and sic the dogs on him, but Jail was able to keep his plans, motivations, and the capabilities of the Numbers secret enough that the Council and Regius thought he was still loyal right up until the HQ attack.

As for the brainwashing of the Numbers, we have a very clear example that not only was it possible, it was done to at least one of them. Which one? Number Thirteen... Subaru's sister, Ginga. The fact is, we really don't know how much, or how little, direct control over the Numbers Jail had; however, due to the brainwashing of Ginga, I'm inclined to accept that he actually had quite a bit of control.

I think it's more a matter of indoctrination than outright brainwashing. Notice that Ginga as Number XIII is a completely emotionless robot, where the Numbers all have their own distinct personalities. Now this might have been a case of Jail having to give her a rush job to have her ready for the Grand Finale, but if he was brainwashing the Numbers you'd think the second generation Numbers would be more loyal to him; Dieci feeling guilty about hurting Vivio and wondering if the Doctor's plan is worth that pain is something that wouldn't have happened if they were totally loyal to him.

I think it's more a case of the Numbers learning Jail's twisted values from him like children learn their values from their parents. More to the point, however, in the SSX Soundstage Cinque and Ginga visit Jail in prison to question him about anything he might know about the Mariage, and he greets Cinque like an old friend he hasn't seen in a while, not a defective machine that betrayed his values once he wasn't there to put them in her head.

That being said, however, Jail definitely had the capability to alter their personalities if they ever got out of line. We may never know if he ever did this during the timeskip or when the Numbers were first created, but I definitely wouldn't put it past him.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Uldihaa » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:30 pm

Comartemis wrote:Regius and the High Council had no direct control over Jail in the sense that they didn't have agents in Jail's lair monitoring and reporting on his activities and making very sure he wasn't doing anything he wasn't supposed to. The only real control over him they had was that they were covering his tracks for him and the council was probably providing him with some amount of funding. Presumably if they thought Jail was getting out of hand, they could cut off his funding and sic the dogs on him, but Jail was able to keep his plans, motivations, and the capabilities of the Numbers secret enough that the Council and Regius thought he was still loyal right up until the HQ attack.


Didn't Regius's assistant mention that Jail had abandoned his previous facility and that she no longer knew where he was? Regius was rather pissed about it too, as I recall. That seemed to imply they were also providing facilities and raw materials; it's why Ginga and Suburu really are their Mother's daughters, since they were made from her genetic information provided to Jail via Regius (or someone under his command). And the problem with watchers is that those watchers have to know and understand what he's doing; if they do, then what's the point of using Jail in the first place? And if they don't understand it (and to the point that they understand what else his machines could do) they could all too easily miss something critical, and then things would be right back to where they were in the beginning of StrikerS; i.e. they thought he was doing one thing, but he was actually aiming for something totally different.

Personally I think the TSAB is being properly cautious by imprisoning him; they really can't be sure just what he's capable of. Add in how close he came to destroying Mid-Childa, I seriously doubt anyone would want to even suggest using him again (he's the political equivalent to nuclear waste). They can't be sure they know what other contingency plans he might have set up, nor any way to know how they might be set into motion or what they would do. While they could set something up that allowed them to use his genius with a fair amount of confidence that he'd be under control, if something then did happen, whoever suggested/implemented it would be ruined (and quite possibly facing prison themselves).

I guess my point boils down to: "Too Dangerous", both to the public and to whomever went forward with the plan; keeping in mind what happened to the last group that thought they had Jail 'under control'.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby bissek » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:31 pm

The second chapter of MGLN - ViVid - Vivio Memoryis out. Apparently 10 year old Vivio has come up with a spell (independent of her device) that allows her to turn into an adult.

Oh, the crossover potential in having a 4th grade magical girl able to pass as a teenager at will.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Comartemis » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:34 am

Got a real treat for you guys today.

It seems someone decided to give the StrikerS manga a bonus chapter set sometime after the epilogue depicting a no-holds-barred smackdown between Signum and Nanoha.

Enjoy.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Uldihaa » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:02 pm

Oooh, thanks Com! That was pretty cool, and amusing too :lol: .

I loved Signum's thoughts about Nanoha just before the no-holds-barred portion of their match. I was rather pleased, and amused, by their condition after the match, particularly Nanoha. And Fate was definitely in 'Worry-wort-Mama mode' :wink: .

And it might just be the way the mangaka arranged the positions of the characters, but it looked like both Rein and Agito where about Vivio's size, which is interesting. And I absolutely loved the final panel, particularly Vivio, Rein, and Agito :lol: .

Gonna read the whole StrikerS manga again 8) .
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Comartemis » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:33 pm

Yeah, all the Unison Devices we've seen so far have human-size modes like Reinforce 1 did way back in A's, they just don't show up too often.

Also, word on the streets is there's a Nanoha fighting game coming out for PSP in January. Canned Dogs has the scoop.

...to be honest, this looks suspiciously similar to Magical Battle Arena to me, just with the cast limited to the Nanoha characters. Any thoughts on that?
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Makoto » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:31 pm

Just a quick question - is it supposed to be 'Raising Heart,' or 'Raging Heart?' (The kana would help, too. :D) I'd check the episodes, myself (as I'm sure they'd have the name in the credits), but while I only have the first three episodes of Nanoha and all of StrikerS... I have to actually FIND them. :oops:

A number of Nanoha fanfics I've been reading recently seem to be unsure which one it is. 8)
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Uldihaa » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:43 am

It's Raising Heart, according to the official stuff released by the creators; the 'Raging Heart' thing is due to fansubber error. I think some fanfic authors continue to use it because either they haven't seen StrikerS (or Funimation's release of the DVDs) or they just liked 'Raging Heart' better (possibly because it fits Nanoha's 'badass' reputation among fans better :wink: ).
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Not-Going-to-Tell » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:50 am

Hey, everypne. Force chapter one translations are out.
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Makoto » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:25 pm

Uldihaa wrote:It's Raising Heart, according to the official stuff released by the creators; the 'Raging Heart' thing is due to fansubber error. I think some fanfic authors continue to use it because either they haven't seen StrikerS (or Funimation's release of the DVDs) or they just liked 'Raging Heart' better (possibly because it fits Nanoha's 'badass' reputation among fans better :wink: ).


Right. You have to admit, though, that for the early fansubbers, who only had what was said in the episode and the name in the credits, "レイジングハート" (I finally found where I'd stored Nanoha 1-3 and checked the credits) could easily go either way. :)
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Re: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Postby Knight of L-sama » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:46 pm

Uldihaa wrote:It's Raising Heart, according to the official stuff released by the creators; the 'Raging Heart' thing is due to fansubber error. I think some fanfic authors continue to use it because either they haven't seen StrikerS (or Funimation's release of the DVDs) or they just liked 'Raging Heart' better (possibly because it fits Nanoha's 'badass' reputation among fans better :wink: ).


Actually Funi doesn't help matters. The official subs for season one also jump between Raising and Raging on the first disc.
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