Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

[Uldihaa]

Yay, new Nanoha! TWO new Nanoha series at that! I'm a very, very happy fanboy right now .

Seems like they have absolutely no intention of letting this series fade away with a movie or two. Come to think of it, I wonder if the reason they are doing two new manga is because they are focused on the movie? If so, I hope that at some point after the movie(s) they do another TV series... I'm hoping so. By the way, is there some place that has the SSX translated? I wanna read it.

Oh, just spent the last 3 days doing a Nanoha marathon with my niece... she is now a very enthusiastic fangirl of the series and has ordered the original and A's this morning .

[Comartemis]

Good show, Uldihaa! Nothing like new fans to breath new life into the series!

As to SSX, I believe the Music thread of the Nanoha board on AnimeSuki is what you're looking for, though you might have to do a little digging.

[al103]

I assume you mean Cinque, and I'd like to know where you got those numbers from.

Character cards for Numbers.

a few of the Numbers (Otto and Sein, I believe) aren't working for the TSAB, they're working for the Saint Church.

Is Saint Church Knights part of TSAB forces or not Holy War round N - ToRSSS edition?

About other things - it seems you do not understand that i give VARIANTS not one messed thing. Lets start again.

1. Knights didn't realized that they have free will before they met Hayate.
2. Knights have free will all the time.
3. Knights didn't have free will before destruction of BoD and were in fact just programs.

Situation 1 is real situation, but is case of reality being much wilder then dreams and fantasies and i don't think it could have been pulled even in "lenient" TSAB court with all BoD-haters in TSAB that should be many.

If we go situation 2 did Hayate taken blame on herself or did not doesn't matter. 'ritters participated in BoD completion all those previous times and killed many while doing that. If they had free will - then they are guilty. Even if they wouldn't be accounted for books deeds after each completion they will get life imprisonment as minimum sentence.

If we go situation 3 then if Hayate didn't take blame on herself then 'ritters are dangerous malfunctioning programs whose "free will" after BoD destruction can't be taken seriously and must be destroyed before they will do anything dangerous again. Bad end. If Hayate takes blame on herself she is just crippled 9 y.o. whose actions didn't killed anyone and who helped to resolve BoD case for good. Do 'ritters have free will now or not do not matter much, but TSAB can safely act as they are.

Conclusion: only one other variant which is "to tell truth" wouldn't hold any water in court - which is striking resemblance with real life btw. So Hayate taken blame for 'ritters action and saved they necks.

[Comartemis]

Character cards for Numbers.

I'll have to check that myself, but my gut reaction is to ignore supplemental material that clashes with things we're told in the main series.

Is Saint Church Knights part of TSAB forces or not Holy War round N - ToRSSS edition?

The Church is a separate institution from the TSAB; it's the most popular religion in the TSAB's territory. Doesn't sound like something you'd join for community service.

Situation 1 is real situation, but is case of reality being much wilder then dreams and fantasies and i don't think it could have been pulled even in "lenient" TSAB court with all BoD-haters in TSAB that should be many.

Conclusion: only one other variant which is "to tell truth" wouldn't hold any water in court - which is striking resemblance with real life btw. So Hayate taken blame for 'ritters action and saved they necks.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear the first time: DO NOT ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT THE COURTS WOULD OR WOULDN'T BELIEVE. This is a world where magic is an everyday part of life and ancient, poorly-understood magical artifacts are being discovered all the time. One would have to have an open mind in this universe or risk going nuts after the laws of the universe are broken the first half-dozen times; for Christ's sake, the Jewel Seeds are explicitly stated to grant wishes when they're working properly. That's magic on the level of outright reality-warping.

Also: what BoD haters? One would assume that past victims would hate the user who goes around trying to use the book to gain unlimited power. Hating the BoD is rather like hating a gun instead of the guy who used it to kill your parents. Makes no sense whatsoever.

[Knight of L-sama]

By the way, is there some place that has the SSX translated? I wanna read it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ladysekhmetka is doing a series of vids setting the Animesuki translation that Comartemis mentioned to the actual tracks of Sound Stage.

[al103]

I'll have to check that myself, but my gut reaction is to ignore supplemental material that clashes with things we're told in the main series.

Only i do not see where it contradicts it...

The Church is a separate institution from the TSAB; it's the most popular religion in the TSAB's territory. Doesn't sound like something you'd join for community service.

Please note - i didn't say Church, i did say Church Knights. And i DO think they are part of TSAB.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear the first time: DO NOT ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT THE COURTS WOULD OR WOULDN'T BELIEVE.

1. Truth is discarded by Occam razor, because it's LESS possible variant
2. And from position of risks and gains it also variant judge less likely to follow.
so they could... but most likely not. If i were in place of Hayate i would NEVER risk 'ritters lives in chances like that. Would you?

Also: what BoD haters? One would assume that past victims would hate the user who goes around trying to use the book to gain unlimited power. Hating the BoD is rather like hating a gun instead of the guy who used it to kill your parents. Makes no sense whatsoever.

1. People are illogical.
2. BoD as it is quite good target for hate. Like One Ring it will do only evil in the end.

[Comartemis]

Please note - i didn't say Church, i did say Church Knights. And i DO think they are part of TSAB.

You think wrong. Church Knights are under Carim Gracia's command and operate in the Church's command structure. They have been shown to cooperate with the TSAB at times, and one can hold ranks in both the Church and the TSAB (Hayate in the Ground Forces and Acous in the Intelligence Branch, for instance) but there is nothing to suggest that the Church Knights answer to TSAB command.

And this is irrelevant in any event, because while Sein is a sister of the church and may technically be regarded as a Church Knight, Otto is a butler serving Carim personally. Does that sound even remotely like something you'd do for community service?

1. Truth is discarded by Occam razor, because it's LESS possible variant
2. And from position of risks and gains it also variant judge less likely to follow.

Judges aren't concerned with the simplest explanation, they're concerned with the truth. If Hayate can prove that she's telling the truth then the judge will have to accept her story no matter how crazy it sounds.

Also, you forget one crucial piece of information; magic that allows a person to pull information directly out of another person's head exists in this universe. Verossa Acous uses this sort of magic on Uno during the tail end of StrikerS to obtain information about the other Numbers, and the courts could easily use this on Hayate and the Wolkenritter to determine whether or not they are lying about their circumstances.

[al103]

If Hayate can prove that she's telling the truth then the judge will have to accept her story no matter how crazy it sounds.

Only, you know, she CAN'T. She can give her opinion. Which most likely would be discarded.

Also, you forget one crucial piece of information; magic that allows a person to pull information directly out of another person's head exists in this universe. Verossa Acous uses this sort of magic on Uno during the tail end of StrikerS to obtain information about the other Numbers, and the courts could easily use this on Hayate and the Wolkenritter to determine whether or not they are lying about their circumstances.

It's all worse for 'ritters. Because they did had free will, only didn't realized that it's so. So they all go to prison as mass murderers.

[Comartemis]

Only, you know, she CAN'T. She can give her opinion. Which most likely would be discarded.

She damn well can thanks to that "extract the information from her head" magic. The truth of the situation will show the judge and jury that the Wolkenritter had no choice but to attack people and drain their LCs in order to save the life of an innocent girl, and that they could not have foreseen that their actions would backfire on them so spectacularly.

And even setting this aside, you have key material witnesses like the Lieze twins, Gil Graham, and Chrono testifying on Hayate's behalf. It's not just Hayate saying that this is the truth, but also very credible witnesses who've taken part in the Book's destruction first-hand. Chrono is effectively a high-ranking police officer whose credibility as a witness is top-notch; if he says Hayate is telling the truth and the information obtained from the court's mind-reading magic matches Hayate's story, then there are only two possible conclusions the court can make:

1: They're telling the truth.
2: Everyone involved with the case who testified on Hayte's behalf has had their memories altered and the whole thing is an elaborate cover-up.

I believe this is where Occam's Razor comes in.

Because they did had free will, only didn't realized that it's so. So they all go to prison as mass murderers.

That's another thing you're assuming, that they killed people in the past when they only needed the energy of their linker cores.

When they first appear chronologically in the series, the Wolks are unemotional and very robotic compared to their later selves. Assuming this is the way they were in the past, they would probably not have killed people simply because they didn't have to (efficiency is a priority concern to beings that function primarily on logic) in order to drain their linker cores. Heck, it's possible that you can't drain a linker core from a dead body, so killing people would have been counterproductive. If this is indeed the case, then all deaths would have resulted from the rampaging Viral Defensive Program, which has been destroyed by the time of the trial and poses no threat to anyone.

And besides, reading the Wolks memories wouldn't produce any incriminating evidence about previous BoD awakenings because the Wolks have no memories of their previous masters.

[al103]

That's another thing you're assuming, that they killed people in the past when they only needed the energy of their linker cores.

IIRC somebody quoted soundstages about BoD showing all that bloodshed and Hayate ordering knights don't even think about it.

[Knight of L-sama]

And this is irrelevant in any event, because while Sein is a sister of the church and may technically be regarded as a Church Knight, Otto is a butler serving Carim personally. Does that sound even remotely like something you'd do for community service?

Actually since the topic came up earlier the translation of the Sound Stages from earlier is giving referring to Otto as a deacon of the Saint Church (with her specific duties being Carim's buttler)

[CRBWildcat]

IIRC somebody quoted soundstages about BoD showing all that bloodshed and Hayate ordering knights don't even think about it.

That line sounds a little confusing. Could someone straighten that out, please?

[Comartemis]

IIRC somebody quoted soundstages about BoD showing all that bloodshed and Hayate ordering knights don't even think about it.

I have absolutely no idea what you just tried to say. What bloodshed, and what's this about Hayate ordering the knights?

***

Something else occurs to me just now, and I'm very surprised I didn't see it sooner.

Let's take this all the way back into the bureau's history. At some point back during the Belkan Empire, it became possible to manufacture fully-conscious sentient artificial beings like Unison Devices. At some point in the distant past, the legal ramifications of this and the rights of an artificially-created intelligence had to have been spelled out at some point. Now we've been proceeding through this argument with the assumption that AIs like Reinforce or the Wolks are regarded as sapient creatures with rights of their own, but maybe the situation is more complicated then that.

What if the Wolks are regarded as minors by TSA law?

Now bearing in mind that Signum and company are obviously mentally mature enough to be regarded as adults, Hayate still seems to regard them as her kids, and she calls them as such a couple of times throughout the A's manga. If TSA law regarded AIs as being akin to minors in the sense that their owners are responsible for their actions, it would explain perfectly why the Wolks were never called to task for their previous actions; the ones responsible for said actions are all dead by way of the BoD, and the current master cooperated with Bureau forces in disabling a serious threat to Dimension Space and saving countless lives from the book's current and future rampages in the process. At the same time, apart from being minors and having a guardian/owner who is responsible for them, AIs have all the same rights that human minors have. Of course since kids in the TSAB are capable of joining the military, they probably have very different legal rights than Earth kids do, probably akin to those of adults.

If this could be confirmed to be the case, then it would make perfect sense for Hayate to take responsibility for the actions of her "kids", and I suppose I could see the reason for her to take the blame for their actions.

At the same time, if this isn't the case, then the Wolks must not have been called to task for their actions. Why? Because if they did kill people for their previous masters then it wouldn't make a whit of difference whether Hayate tried to take the blame for them or not; the courts would not accept Hayate trying to take the blame for the Wolks' past actions because any retard could tell you that Hayate couldn't possibly have had anything to do with murders that occurred before her birth. To accept Hayate's attempt to take the blame for the Wolkenritter's murders would be to knowingly imprison an innocent girl for crimes she didn't commit, even if she said she did, and that is probably one of the worst miscarriages of justice you could possibly make.

Actually since the topic came up earlier the translation of the Sound Stages from earlier is giving referring to Otto as a deacon of the Saint Church (with her specific duties being Carim's buttler)

Deacon, butler, tom-ay-toe, tom-ah-toe... the point is it isn't the sort of role a former criminal would be assigned to for community service. CS typically implies cleaning up parks and public property or helping out at old folks' homes, or in the case of the TSAB, an extended period of service in the military. Working for a high-ranking Church official as her personal servant or becoming a sister in the aforementioned church isn't anywhere close to those options. And if Otto and Sein aren't working community service for some length of time, I have to wonder why Cinque and the others would be, hence my skepticism towards those character cards.

[al103]

You didn't read 3 variants i stated it seems, Comar... because I NEVER DID SAY HAYATE TAKEN BLAME FOR MURDERS. She is taken blame for they actions when she was they master, because it's made identifying they legal status while in possession of BoD both easier and benevolent for knights. If they would taken blame for this actions now then they would take blame for all previous ones too. Which is death sentence.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear the first time: DO NOT ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT THE COURTS WOULD OR WOULDN'T BELIEVE.

Also do not assume that YOU know that. And you do assume.

Also about Numbers and they crimes "no sane government would go unpunished"... You know what? It's in Japanese history. Only 150 years ago. Meiji government. And it's personnel policy. For example:

Enomoto Takeaki:
status 1: last admiral of Bakufu (enemy of Meiji government), after fall of Bakufu
status 2: first, last and only elected president of "Republic of Ezo". Enemy of Meiji government, considered rebel and so on. After fall of Ezo...
status 3: first admiral of.... Meiji government. Yeah. Later Navy Minister.
Numbers got nothing on him in that regard...

[Comartemis]

You didn't read 3 variants i stated it seems, Comar... because I NEVER DID SAY HAYATE TAKEN BLAME FOR MURDERS.

Chill 103, no need for CAPSLOCK. I must've lost track of the jist of your argument at some point.

She is taken blame for they actions when she was they master, because it's made identifying they legal status while in possession of BoD both easier and benevolent for knights. If they would taken blame for this actions now then they would take blame for all previous ones too. Which is death sentence.

Okay, now I think I see where you're coming from, but you really need to work on your english 103, your grammar is atrocious to the point of making your statements very difficult to understand.

That having been said, however, keep in mind that the Wolks are also heroes who helped destroy an ancient and extremely dangerous Lost Logia responsible for the deaths of billions of people. Had they not helped put a stop to the Book's rampage, it would have killed millions of people on Earth and then gone on to repeat the process on countless other worlds in the future. Even assuming that they killed people in the past (and you still haven't clarified what you meant by "IIRC somebody quoted soundstages about BoD showing all that bloodshed and Hayate ordering knights don't even think about it.") they couldn't possibly have racked up a bigger body count than the Book itself had, and by preventing the book from continuing its' rampage they've probably saved many many times as many people as they've hurt. That's something the courts are going to take into account when the Wolks are on trial.

That last statement isn't an assumption, by the way; TSA courts have a track record of lessening the sentences of adversaries who turn around and cooperate with TSA forces or even those who aren't completely evil to begin with (beginning with Fate and ending with Lutecia, Agito, and the second-generation Numbers), so it's definitely a factor in determining a criminal's punishment.

Also do not assume that YOU know that. And you do assume.

What exactly are you referring to here, 103? You mean my spiel about the Wolks being regarded as minors? That's an idea presented as a what-if, not something I assume to be true. The only assumption I'm making is that the TSAB courts are fair and unbiased like a court is supposed to be, not kangaroo courts that make a habit of charging people with crimes they didn't commit.

Also about Numbers and they crimes "no sane government would go unpunished"... You know what? It's in Japanese history. Only 150 years ago. Meiji government. And it's personnel policy. For example:

Enomoto Takeaki

Your comparison fails because the situations are totally different. Takeaki was recognized as high-ranking uniformed military during a wartime situation and he fought the Meiji government because that was his job. Jail, on the other hand, was a mad scientist infamous in the Bureau for his work on illegal technology like the Combat Cyborgs and his work on the creation of Artificial Mages, and he fought the TSAB because he wanted to overthrow the established government and replace it with a space where he could conduct his research unmolested. Enomoto was a Vice Admiral; Jail was just a terrorist, and the Numbers were his (brainwashed?) footsoldiers.

Besides, Takeaki was only pardoned because the new government recognized that he had skills and knowledge they could make use of. If that was the kind of thinking the TSAB was using, then they would have pardoned Jail and made use of his expertise in making Combat Cyborgs. Instead they put Jail in Jail along with his most loyal followers and let his creations run loose once they'd been through rehab and gotten themselves a proper set of morals.