A couple Naruto questions

[claymade]

Lately I've been reading through the Naruto manga, and enjoying it quite a bit. But there are a couple aspects of the world that I really don't have a very good handle on yet.

Of course, I'm plodding along at the pace of the American domestically released manga, so I was wondering if there was further clarification later on to how these issues worked out in later volumes (or whether I've just missed the explanations completely in what I have read).

Specifically:

-Just what are the criteria that determines whether a Hyuga becomes a member of the cadet or main branches? Hiashi and Hizashi were brothers, and got split; Hinata and Hanabi are sisters, and are both main branch. Is it a gender issue? Are twins a special case? Or was Hanabi a special case because their father was so disappointed in Hinata?

-Also, in volume 2, when explaining the ninja ranks, Kakashi seems to portray them as skill rankings, and correlates them directly to what missions are assigned to whom. (C and D to genin, B and C to chunin, etc.) And yet, by the time the chunin exam arc rolls around, they seem to taken on the aspects of command ranks, as in who leads who (thus, we see Shikimaru alone ascending to that rank).

So is it really the case that they'll only send teams filled with commander ninja on the more dangerous missions? That even if you've got ridiculously powerful fighting abilities, you'll really be (in theory) relegated to C and D duties until you become a sufficiently adept leader to move up? How do those two aspects of the ranks fit together?

-Finally (this one being more of a personal gripe than anything else) did anyone else wonder why it was--if leadership was really the one supposedly-essential element to being a chunin--that none of the chunin exam phases specifically tested it (or were even particularly well suited to displaying its presence or lack, except by happenstance)?

[FriendlyEL]

Well, I have been into Naruto for quite a while now lately, so I thought I might add at least my own thoughts onto this:

Just what are the criteria that determines whether a Hyuga becomes a member of the cadet or main branches? Hiashi and Hizashi were brothers, and got split; Hinata and Hanabi are sisters, and are both main branch. Is it a gender issue? Are twins a special case?

Whoever was born first is the main branch if I remember right (if they're twins, it's the one who comes out first). At least that's what I remember hearing.

Or was Hanabi a special case because their father was so disappointed in Hinata?

Exactly.

Also, in volume 2, when explaining the ninja ranks, Kakashi seems to portray them as skill rankings, and correlates them directly to what missions are assigned to whom. (C and D to genin, B and C to chunin, etc.) And yet, by the time the chunin exam arc rolls around, they seem to taken on the aspects of command ranks, as in who leads who (thus, we see Shikimaru alone ascending to that rank).

So is it really the case that they'll only send teams filled with commander ninja on the more dangerous missions? That even if you've got ridiculously powerful fighting abilities, you'll really be (in theory) relegated to C and D duties until you become a sufficiently adept leader to move up? How do those two aspects of the ranks fit together?

Good question that I have always wondered about myself. It seems commonly that the two are typically intertwined aspects that you can't be a good ninja without. Then again higher ups may be willing to make exceptions if a Hokage has a particularly high opinion of a Genin's skill level anyways.

One point that may just be a loophole though, Naruto was still a genin and Sakura was still a chunnin after the time skip, but right after they came back were sent on an S class mission. This to me means that if this point you made is right then it must have been a great exception. Plus, Kakashi sent Sakura and Naruto and Genma sent Sasuke alone during the takeover of the Leaf villiage (he basically told him that he may be a genin by rank but he had chuunin skill anyways in the anime) to deal with Gaara, which was said to be an A rank mission. Impressing higher ups seems to be a good way to get around that rank problem.

Plus, sometimes (like in the story of the Sasuke retrieval) if the village does not have enough Chuunins or Jounins to accomplish a B or A rank mission, they may find whoever they can get to do the job.

Finally (this one being more of a personal gripe than anything else) did anyone else wonder why it was--if leadership was really the one supposedly-essential element to being a chunin--that none of the chunin exam phases specifically tested it (or were even particularly well suited to displaying its presence or lack, except by happenstance)?

They weren't so much looking for the leadership abilities, persay, during the finals in the Chuunin Exams as the ability to think like a leader and use a strait head. The reason Shikamaru was the only one considered as a Chuunin material despite far more powerful contestants was due to the fact that Shikimaru had logical ability.

It is strange that that they never had any test directly related to it, but I suspect that it was really just a mind game that they were trying to use to get the right reaction out of them with, sort of like the written exam.

[Dumbledork]

If you like Naruto I strongly advise you to stop reading after the Sasuke retrieval mission. You'll be disappointed. Plotholes galore, Naruto is being nerfed spectacularly while Sasuke is becoming God. Sometimes I wonder if Kishimato has been replaced by Toriyama. I got the impression of reading Dragon Ball Z. Ridiculous powerups, unbelievable techniques, the artwork is going down the drain,and you can practically see that Kishimoto himself wants to kill the series.

[Knight of L-sama]

-Just what are the criteria that determines whether a Hyuga becomes a member of the cadet or main branches? Hiashi and Hizashi were brothers, and got split; Hinata and Hanabi are sisters, and are both main branch. Is it a gender issue? Are twins a special case? Or was Hanabi a special case because their father was so disappointed in Hinata?

I'm a little lost on the stuff happening post time-skip but to the best of my knowledge we are never explicitly told the criteria for determining whether a Hyuuga is to be Main House or Branch House. I'm not sure if there is a corresponding scene in the manga but in the anime there is a scene where we see Hinata's father talking to a half dozen or so other members of the Main House and that's impossible to achieve if all non-successors are made members of the Branch House.

My personal theory is that while Children of Branch House members are automatically made members of the Branch House but but in the Main House but the reason that Neiji's father was made a member of the Branch House becuase identical twins screw up the normal rules of primogeniture (inheritance in order of birth) while with Hinata and Hanabi there's a three (or more?) year age gap so that the line of succession is clear cut, even if Hinata hasn't lived up to her father's expectations.

-Also, in volume 2, when explaining the ninja ranks, Kakashi seems to portray them as skill rankings, and correlates them directly to what missions are assigned to whom. (C and D to genin, B and C to chunin, etc.) And yet, by the time the chunin exam arc rolls around, they seem to taken on the aspects of command ranks, as in who leads who (thus, we see Shikimaru alone ascending to that rank).

So is it really the case that they'll only send teams filled with commander ninja on the more dangerous missions? That even if you've got ridiculously powerful fighting abilities, you'll really be (in theory) relegated to C and D duties until you become a sufficiently adept leader to move up? How do those two aspects of the ranks fit together?

Well considering that Chuunin are teachers and Jounin are field commanders for genin teams a certain amount of command skills are nessecary for the higher ranks. So considering their responsibility is to also pass on the skills and knowledge as well act on behalf of their village it does make a certain amount of sense.

-Finally (this one being more of a personal gripe than anything else) did anyone else wonder why it was--if leadership was really the one supposedly-essential element to being a chunin--that none of the chunin exam phases specifically tested it (or were even particularly well suited to displaying its presence or lack, except by happenstance)?

Well in the sense that leadership skills that Kishimoto are reffering to seem to be tactical and strategic skills, the choices make a lot of sense. Naruto ninja (with a couple of exceptions) are already trained to obey orders from the academy so the higher ranks don't need to demonstrate command skills (which is what most people think of when discussing leadership skills) but the tactical and strategic know how to correctly employ the forces placed under their command in the field.
This emphasises the point of demonstrating the ability with increasing rank becuase the higer ranks (especially jounin) have the potential for independent action and tactical and strategic knowledge are just as, if not more important when operating alone. It's also a good arguement for keeping ninja without those skills at a lower rank even, or perhaps especially, if they've got crazy awesome combat power. You don't want that much combat potential getting distracted from their primary mission and going off half-cocked. That way at a lower rank there will be someone on their missions to keep an eye on them and keep them on track.

[lwf58]

-Just what are the criteria that determines whether a Hyuga becomes a member of the cadet or main branches? Hiashi and Hizashi were brothers, and got split; Hinata and Hanabi are sisters, and are both main branch. Is it a gender issue? Are twins a special case? Or was Hanabi a special case because their father was so disappointed in Hinata?

If I am understanding it correctly, those born to Branch House members get the seal automatically. Main House members get it either as a punishment or to secure the succession. AFAIK, the question of the succession between Hinata and Hanabi is still open. They might not seal either; it's not automatic in the case of Main House members.

-Also, in volume 2, when explaining the ninja ranks, Kakashi seems to portray them as skill rankings, and correlates them directly to what missions are assigned to whom. (C and D to genin, B and C to chunin, etc.) And yet, by the time the chunin exam arc rolls around, they seem to taken on the aspects of command ranks, as in who leads who (thus, we see Shikimaru alone ascending to that rank).

Genin, Chunin, and Jonin are skill rankings that are earned. Chunin are chosen by their ability to come up with strategies and tactics, and are called on to lead genin teams. Some ninja never gain the rank of chunin; there are genin who are 30 years old or older. D through S are class rankings used to describe a threat or difficulty level, and are applied to jobs, ninja skills, and to describe the skill level of a ninja. For example, jonin are the highest rank of ninja short of kage, but they aren't all equally dangerous (and the same applies to the other ranks) so they get threat levels using the letter system to classify them.

So is it really the case that they'll only send teams filled with commander ninja on the more dangerous missions? That even if you've got ridiculously powerful fighting abilities, you'll really be (in theory) relegated to C and D duties until you become a sufficiently adept leader to move up? How do those two aspects of the ranks fit together?

The system is flexible. A ninja's rank determines whether he can be a commander, not that he is one. Any chunin or jonin can be put in command of a mission, or be subordinate to another who has been given the responsibility.

-Finally (this one being more of a personal gripe than anything else) did anyone else wonder why it was--if leadership was really the one supposedly-essential element to being a chunin--that none of the chunin exam phases specifically tested it (or were even particularly well suited to displaying its presence or lack, except by happenstance)?

The reason why Naruto failed to become a chunin despite having all but won the tournament is because he didn't use much strategy, while Shikamaru, who gave up, did, and was the only one who became a Konoha chunin despite his loss. The examiners look for signs of desirable traits and ability to be a leader; winning or losing has nothing to do with it.

[claymade]

Genin, Chunin, and Jonin are skill rankings that are earned. Chunin are chosen by their ability to come up with strategies and tactics, and are called on to lead genin teams. Some ninja never gain the rank of chunin; there are genin who are 30 years old or older. D through S are class rankings used to describe a threat or difficulty level, and are applied to jobs, ninja skills, and to describe the skill level of a ninja. For example, jonin are the highest rank of ninja short of kage, but they aren't all equally dangerous (and the same applies to the other ranks) so they get threat levels using the letter system to classify them.

Ah, gotcha--so you could (even in the ideal course of things, extraordinary circumstances aside) naturally end up with an A-rank jonin leading a bunch of S-rank genin on an S-ranked mission, if I understand correctly?

I'm not sure if there is a corresponding scene in the manga but in the anime there is a scene where we see Hinata's father talking to a half dozen or so other members of the Main House and that's impossible to achieve if all non-successors are made members of the Branch House.

My personal theory is that while Children of Branch House members are automatically made members of the Branch House but but in the Main House but the reason that Neiji's father was made a member of the Branch House becuase identical twins screw up the normal rules of primogeniture (inheritance in order of birth) while with Hinata and Hanabi there's a three (or more?) year age gap so that the line of succession is clear cut, even if Hinata hasn't lived up to her father's expectations.

Makes sense. Thanks!

The reason why Naruto failed to become a chunin despite having all but won the tournament is because he didn't use much strategy, while Shikamaru, who gave up, did, and was the only one who became a Konoha chunin despite his loss. The examiners look for signs of desirable traits and ability to be a leader; winning or losing has nothing to do with it.

Huh? IIRC, he used strategy as a lynchpin of winning all his fights--first getting a bite in on Kiba by impersonating Akamaru, then by tricking Kiba into taking out Akamaru, then by using his doppleganger formation to manuver Neji exactly where he wanted him, and finally by using his doppleganger as both a trick to get Neji to let down his guard and a camouflage to disguise his burrow-hole. Sure, his strategies might not have been quite as elaborate as Shikimaru's final gambit. But is it really supposed to be a mark of distinction to use a more elaborate strategy to accomplish your goals--when a simpler strategy would work just as well?

Which is starting to get to the crux of what actually annoys me about it: my issue isn't with the fact that becoming a chunin requires strategy/tactics, rather than just the ability to whup everyone else. I get that. What annoys me is that in terms of determining the degree to which the applicants actually have "desirable traits and ability to be a leader", the tests they level against the candidates all range from poor to useless.

I mean, the way the system is set up currently, the only way to become a chunin is if you're either A) weak enough, relatively speaking, in other respects that you need incredibly elaborate strategies to win against your opponents in the final round, or B) the kind of person who makes his strategies more elaborate than they need to be (in flagrant violation of K.I.S.S.).

Well in the sense that leadership skills that Kishimoto are reffering to seem to be tactical and strategic skills, the choices make a lot of sense. Naruto ninja (with a couple of exceptions) are already trained to obey orders from the academy so the higher ranks don't need to demonstrate command skills (which is what most people think of when discussing leadership skills) but the tactical and strategic know how to correctly employ the forces placed under their command in the field.

Perhaps, but even so, employing and directing other people in the middle of a combat situation is an entirely different kettle of fish from solely personal battle tactics. And paradoxically enough, solely personal battle tactics/strategy are (at very best!) the only kind that passing the chunin exams demonstrates.

In the end, my gripe summed up in one sentence is: "How on earth did they figure that a one-on-one arena fight was the best possible way to test suitability for being the field commander of a four-person team?"

[camk4evr]

Huh? IIRC, he used strategy as a lynchpin of winning all his fights--first getting a bite in on Kiba by impersonating Akamaru, then by tricking Kiba into taking out Akamaru, then by using his doppleganger formation to manuver Neji exactly where he wanted him, and finally by using his doppleganger as both a trick to get Neji to let down his guard and a camouflage to disguise his burrow-hole. Sure, his strategies might not have been quite as elaborate as Shikimaru's final gambit. But is it really supposed to be a mark of distinction to use a more elaborate strategy to accomplish your goals--when a simpler strategy would work just as well?

Didn't Naruto start his match by rushing Neji first, wthout thinking, whereas one of Shikamaru's first moves is to get some distance between himeself and Temari and hide until he can put his plan into action? Sure he did outthink Neji but would you have put Naruto in charge of a team of genin based on one single match or would you have rather used Shikamaru if those were your only choices? Lets not forget that each of Shikamu's failed attempts to capture Temari manuevered her into position for his next attempt.

[Knight of L-sama]

Huh? IIRC, he used strategy as a lynchpin of winning all his fights--first getting a bite in on Kiba by impersonating Akamaru, then by tricking Kiba into taking out Akamaru, then by using his doppleganger formation to manuver Neji exactly where he wanted him, and finally by using his doppleganger as both a trick to get Neji to let down his guard and a camouflage to disguise his burrow-hole. Sure, his strategies might not have been quite as elaborate as Shikimaru's final gambit. But is it really supposed to be a mark of distinction to use a more elaborate strategy to accomplish your goals--when a simpler strategy would work just as well?

You miss the distinction between strategy and tactics. Strategy is 'how do I achieve my final goal' (win the tournament in the case of the third exam) while tactics is 'how do I achieve the intermediate steps before my final goal' (in the case of the third exam, how to defeat individual opponents). Naruto displayed quite a solid grasp of tactics in his fight with Neiji but from the point of view of the onlookers his strategy was flawed. Besides his rather reckless finishing move that relied as much on luck as anything else he went all out against Neiji, putting everything he had into a single fight and thus severly damaging his chances of actually winning the tournament.

Shikamaru on the other hand, as well as displaying a very skilled tactics that meant he was always a few steps ahead of his opponent also displayed much greater strategic sense than anyone else. Despite having Temari on the ropes he knew he could not achieve a definitive victory without seriously damaging his chances at ultimate success. Basically he knew he was in a lose-lose scenario but he had the sense to realise it and back out rather than commit and get thorougly trounced.

That having been said I should add a little caveat in Naruto's defence. The above two paragraphs were done from the point of view of an outside observer. Naruto's fights aren't quite such a strategic blunder when you consider the fact that he has access to an enormous store of chakra in the form of Kyuubi in addition to his own, massive supplies, plus he recuperates fast enough that the time between fights (at least early on) are probably enough for him to mostly, if not completely recover. As evidenced from him going toe to toe with Gaara not all that much later. It's just that those judging the exams weren't aware of such facts.

In the end, my gripe summed up in one sentence is: "How on earth did they figure that a one-on-one arena fight was the best possible way to test suitability for being the field commander of a four-person team?"

There are other, stated reason for the format of the Third Exam. It also serves as advertising to potentially interested clients (look at how good our new up and coming members are!) and a political deterrent to potential enemies (look at how strong we are + we have no secrets so if you do attack we know just what's coming our way). Admittedly this probably works out more in Konha's favour than anyone elses as they are the acknoledged strongest of the five great ninja villages.
The one-on-one tournament is most likely a compromise between testing individual battle skill, tactical and strategic capability and the advertising and political goals of the villages. Then they just have to trust in the knowledge and experience of the judges.

[lwf58]

Ah, gotcha--so you could (even in the ideal course of things, extraordinary circumstances aside) naturally end up with an A-rank jonin leading a bunch of S-rank genin on an S-ranked mission, if I understand correctly?

Not exactly, although correct in principle. It's very unlikely for an S-rank ninja to be less than Jonin or Tokubetsu Jonin. Genin are more likely to be classed as C or B rank at best.

Genin are rarely ever sent on anything worse than a C or B ranked mission. A and S ranked missions are normally reserved for Jonin, Tokubetsu Jonin, or ANBU.

Tokubetsu Jonin are people given Jonin status because they have a valuable talent, rather than having gained the rank the normal way. Anko is a Tokubetsu Jonin.

BTW, the formal exams are not the only way for ninja to gain rank. There are "battlefield promotions" as well.

Check out this article for more info.

[claymade]

Didn't Naruto start his match by rushing Neji first, wthout thinking, whereas one of Shikamaru's first moves is to get some distance between himeself and Temari and hide until he can put his plan into action?

On Naruto's part, the initial attack was a necessary part of his overall subterfuge. He needed to plant the idea in Neji's mind that the real him was hanging back--otherwise, he couldn't have lured him in like he did once Neji was confident that he'd "seen through" Naruto's attack pattern.

Sure he did outthink Neji but would you have put Naruto in charge of a team of genin based on one single match...?

That's exactly my point. Yes, given what we know from the whole series, Shikimaru is by far the better chunin. It's just that the chunin exam tests are extraordinarily poorly-designed to show this fact. They at no point test the ability to actually command a team in a battle situation. And--even in the case of individual strategy/tactics--the tests didn't naturally slant toward demonstrating those qualities except by happenstance.

Lets not forget that each of Shikamu's failed attempts to capture Temari manuevered her into position for his next attempt.

As did Naruto's--twice over.

Naruto displayed quite a solid grasp of tactics in his fight with Neiji but from the point of view of the onlookers his strategy was flawed. Besides his rather reckless finishing move that relied as much on luck as anything else he went all out against Neiji, putting everything he had into a single fight and thus severly damaging his chances of actually winning the tournament.

I don't quite follow. How is going all-out supposed to damage his chances of winning the tournament? There are few things that would damage his chances of winning more than getting eliminated, and he did what he needed to do to prevent that.

So what if he used up a lot of his chakra? If his other opponents face similarly-matched battles, it's by no means unlikely that they'll have to go all-out too. (And that's not even counting the possibility of popping a few Hyogoran pellets between the matches.)

Bottom line, I can see no way in which it's "flawed" strategy to do what you need to do to win the match. If you do, then there's a chance of further victories. If you don't, there isn't. Simple as that.

As evidenced from him going toe to toe with Gaara not all that much later. It's just that those judging the exams weren't aware of such facts.

If going toe to toe with Gaara not all that much later is evidence, don't you think that the judges would be aware that he did that, and that he thus still had that much chakra left over to, in fact, take Gaara out?

There are other, stated reason for the format of the Third Exam.

Even so, there's still no reason why--with all the phases they had--one of them couldn't have been set up to specifically test strategy/tactics if they found it so clearly essential (especially team strategy/tactics).

Instead, they left it to happenstance whether a given genin ended up in a duel that provided a sufficient opportunity to (sensibly) display even individual strategy/tactics to the degree of complexity that they were (apparently) looking for. Even more so with the ability to surrender, which they also seemed impressed with.

[Heaven's Deamon]

Shikamaru thought things through in such a way that he could always have a few moves ready for after his current one. Naruto made up each of his plans as he went along. That is the main difference.

[FriendlyEL]

I think claymade does have a point about not having any real test on the leadership. I get the impression that they really try to weed as many people as they possibly can. That's the only way that they could start out as many people as they did after the Forest of Death exam (was the first time in a while they needed a preliminary) yet only come out with one chuunin.

[camk4evr]

That's exactly my point. Yes, given what we know from the whole series, Shikimaru is by far the better chunin. It's just that the chunin exam tests are extraordinarily poorly-designed to show this fact. They at no point test the ability to actually command a team in a battle situation. And--even in the case of individual strategy/tactics--the tests didn't naturally slant toward demonstrating those qualities except by happenstance.

You missed my point. If you only saw the matches that the judges saw who would you select to be a potential team leader (and keep in mind that it's only potential)? Naruto, who appeared to win more by luck than skill, or Shikamaru, who pretty much dominated his match with Temari by out-thinking her? If the exam had continued and Naruto (who, lets face it, there happens to be a bit of a bias against) had a chance to prove whether or not his defeat of Neji wasn't a fluke, then the Leaf may have had another chunin (or not, this is Naruto after all) and maybe Kankuro, Temari and/or Shino as well would have been made Chunin as well.

[bissek]

The whole concept of requiring an entire team to compete in order to test for Chuunin is flawed to begin with. You can't have a team of all leaders, it doesn't work. As such, at most one person from each team is really eligible for the promotion. If a team doesn't already has a universally agreed on leader, all the test will do is tear the team apart.

Then there's the tests themselves:
Test 1: The team is judged as a whole, but all work is done as individuals. Cheating on written exams usually isn't a team sport, and even when done as a team (Such as Tenten's mirror trick), leaders don't exactly abound. The only truly leadership related action the entire time was that idiotic stunt Naruto pulled right at the end that broke the tension Ibiki had so carefully created.

Test 2: This one might involve leadership, depending on how a team chooses to navigate the forest and hunt for the scroll while protecting their own. The problem is that there's nobody in place to really judge. This is a pass/fail exam in the only real test that can provide a numeric grade on what they're looking for.

Test 3: An observation of one's skills as an individual in the foolish belief that this has any correlation to skills with a group. No matter how well one can strategize as an individual, that is not proof that one can do it for a group.

A much better test would be the following: Randomly assign all testees to groups of three (preferably of mixed origins, though that won't always be possible, since the host village usually submits the largest number of applicants - but having two people from the same actual team together should be forbidden). Give each group an evening to introduce themselves and explain what their strengths and weaknesses are. The next day, appoint one member of the team as leader. Then give them a mission scenario. Allow them two hours to come up with a plan to accomplish the mission. Then have them execute it. The leader will be graded on how well thought-out the plan was, how well he led the group during the mission, and how successful the mission was, while the subordinates will be graded on how well they fulfilled their part of the plan. This will be repeated two more times on following days, with the other two members of the team taking turns as leader on different missions.

[Knight of L-sama]

I don't quite follow. How is going all-out supposed to damage his chances of winning the tournament? There are few things that would damage his chances of winning more than getting eliminated, and he did what he needed to do to prevent that.

The point is that Naruto lost sight of the ultimate goal in favour of going all out in a personal grudge match. That in turn suggests that in terms of missions in the field that he's going to get side-tracked from his main goal by side issues and as such is not ready for the added responsibility of increased rank.

If going toe to toe with Gaara not all that much later is evidence, don't you think that the judges would be aware that he did that, and that he thus still had that much chakra left over to, in fact, take Gaara out?

Had Sarutobi survived that might have earned him some extra consideration since Jiraiya had probably already made mention of the extra training he did with Naruto. But the Third didn't survive and the village elders aren't noted for being that fond of Naruto.

Not to mention that fight happened outside the structure of the exam and as such it was debatable whether it counted properly, espcially since there was no witness other than Sasuke to make a reliable report.